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boundary between animals and us


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#16    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 03 March 2004 - 10:52 PM

QUOTE (Althalus @ Mar 3 2004, 04:43 PM)
man in mudboots,
All things are alive in a way, all things have some sort of energy running through them, this I believe is it's way of being alive, perhaps not in the way we are, and therefore not like us, but alive all the same.

i see the problem, mr althalus. you are thinking of a soul as a 'life force' while im thinking of them a 'spirit of Gods grace'e. phylosophical vs theological. not that theres any thing wrong with your views, its just were on two different thought trains here..


#17    Talon

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Posted 06 March 2004 - 07:41 PM

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scientifically, i think we became truly human when we mastered matter. we can control matter and change our environment like no animal can. an ant can take a sand grain, and move it over here, and a beaver can take a dozen logs and build a dam, but a human can take a stone and chip it into an arrow head, or take two metals and make a new matal, not just move it and build with it, but make it something new. we have mastered matter.


Actually human is our species not a level of intellegence we've reached, as such we became human the moment our species evolved.

Second, science does not seperate us from animals, as the science of life (biology) simply places us as another animial species, only non-science found beleifs asume humans and animals are seperate.

As for he changing of environment and using tools to make tools, indeed we are the only species to do this, however that is a trait of our species, not a trait of being something more than animal.

People, if your alive your either a plant or an animal. Since we're not plants we must be animals, there is not a special third choose called human of which our species is the only member, deal with it.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#18    Chris_com28

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Posted 06 March 2004 - 08:19 PM

[QUOTE]because we realize we are better, we are better.[/QUOTE]
No one is better. We can be as bad as animals and animals can be as good as humans.

[QUOTE]I believe that mastering matter makes a species intelligent, but mastering gravity makes them supperior[/QUOTE]
It would make you very intelligent but it wouldn't make you better than any other species. Anyway that is something that is achieved by a few people, but instead we get stereotyped into all the big things that we have done. A whole species can't discover anti-gravity, only a small percentage of the species.
The only big difference is our physical bodies and our cognitive develpoment. Are adults better than children?

[/QUOTE]Animals are the toys for humans ,while woman are the comfort
this means you can tame your toy but not your comfort[QUOTE]
Are you serious? That makes women seem like a sofa that you dump the moment it starts to get uncomfortable.

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#19    Talon

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Posted 07 March 2004 - 12:39 AM

Chris_com28  thumbsup.gif Nice to know someone else isn't forming their argument around possession of souls  grin2.gif  

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#20    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:22 PM

QUOTE (Chris_com28 @ Mar 6 2004, 07:19 PM)
No one is better. We can be as bad as animals and animals can be as good as humans.

how can an animal be bad? animals are immoral. they cannot do bad because, of course, they have no moral laws or consience to go against. they cannot be good, because they cant follow the moral laws or their consciences, because they have none. animals are neither amoral nor moral, they just act.  


#21    Talon

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Posted 07 March 2004 - 03:43 PM

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how can an animal be bad? animals are immoral. they cannot do bad because, of course, they have no moral laws or consience to go against. they cannot be good, because they cant follow the moral laws or their consciences, because they have none. animals are neither amoral nor moral, they just act.


Although its true that most animals run on instinct, animals like apes do act on consience and although they can't understand good and evil, they can do acts which can be seen to be just or unjust

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#22    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:17 PM

im not being sarcastic, i mean really, give me some acts of apes that can be veiwed asjust or unjust. im completley lost here.


#23    Talon

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Posted 07 March 2004 - 04:39 PM

That would be like asking me to list acts of someone I've never met. I've never met an ape out humans, therefore I cannot answer, but they do have the ability to show kindness or be unkind, which varies from individual to individual and is not run by instinct.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#24    Druidus

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Posted 07 March 2004 - 06:01 PM

QUOTE
im not being sarcastic, i mean really, give me some acts of apes that can be veiwed asjust or unjust. im completley lost here.


I'll give you some.  When I was in Kenya we went to a chimp sanctuary called Sweetwaters.  When they were giving out fruits for food, the chimps would get one each and then later get more.  They all knew this.  One chimp, the one I watched very closely, got a mango and ran off into the brush.  Seconds later he came back with no mango.  He slipped quitely back in the group and put his hand out as if waiting for another fruit.  He got one.  He ran off and again repeated it.  He ended with a mango, a banana, and some guava thing.  Now let me repeat, they all know the rules.  When they get a fruit they go eat it.  Later there will be more.  This guy lied and cheated to get more.  It worked too.  Is lying or cheating considered unjust?  Another example, when boats sink near shore but no emergency signal gets out, dolphins are known to save survivors they don't even know and bring them to shore.  Is that considered just?  I don't know if some people would do anything like that.  Besides that, there are many "unjust" or "just" things that other animals can do.  By the way many animals can understand our concept of good or evil.  The thing is though, it's just our concept.  Our concept changes all the time.  Many years ago, divorces were considered evil, now they are commonplace.  Sex before marriage was evil now it too is commonplace.  It all depends on your point of view.

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#25    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 07 March 2004 - 09:24 PM

about the chimp, he knew he was doing something his human caretakers didnt like, and that they would be angry if they found out, but beyond that did he actually realize he was doing something morally wrong, or just something his caretakers dissaproved of? if his caretakers would not have fussed at him, would he still think of it as wrong? no.


#26    Druidus

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 12:25 AM

If I was to bring a child up in a completely natural "moral" free society, where theft was ok if you were bigger and rape was ok if your strong etc. would that child really know the difference?  Without morals you can still be good or bad.  And besides we're only talking about human morals now.  Who's to say they don't have there own set of morals.  By the way without the bible would you believe to be superior then other animals?  How do you know that other animals have no souls?  Did you actually go up to a cat and say hi Mr. Cat do you have a soul?  AND have it reply no?  What the hell is going on people!  I used to be catholic ok.  I went through confirmation.  I read the whole catechism.  If you read it, it clearly states that to be alive you must have a soul.  Last time I checked most LIVING creatures ARE alive.  It's people who believed themselves superior that started slavery!  They thought that only white men have souls.  That's the exact same argument here.  It's a stupid argument because you can't prove it anyway you look at it.  If raised from birth in captivity gorillas will be fine with water.  They'll bathe, swim in, and drink it no problem.  However, in the wilderness for some unknown reason they won't.  Even if there is no predators in the water they won't.  Why?  Perhaps gorillas think it wrong to do so.  A gorilla who liked to swim was re-introduced to it's group.  After he got picked on and beat for swimming he had to be removed and lived in a zoo ever since.  If I teach a child that it is bad to not kill then he would believe that morally it is good to kill.  Morals are an illusion created by the need for order within all societies.  That means that all social animals have morals.  I'm sick of people believing themselves superior to other animals.  In my opinion, we are a blight upon this planet.  I blight with no cure.  However, we are also a fast evolving blight and maybe one day when all self-serving delusionals are gone, we will look in horror at what we have done and become a beneficial blight.

~~~Official Giver of Fishysticks~~~

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"Eudaemonia is not merely anarchy, but life without need."

"The most damaging phrase in the language is: "It's always been done that way."

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#27    Ravenheart

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 12:33 AM

I believe animals have souls.I mean they're living,breathing creatures like human beings so why wouldn't they have souls.


#28    Druidus

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 12:34 AM

QUOTE
As for he changing of environment and using tools to make tools, indeed we are the only species to do this, however that is a trait of our species, not a trait of being something more than animal.


Beavers change their environment and recently there was a chimp who found that by hitting the end of a rock with another rock he could make a sharp rock.  Now there is a whole group of chimps who make sharp rocks to hunt with.  Some speculate that our rise to relative intelligence was caused by an increase in protien in our diet.  70 years ago the ancestors of this group of chimpanzee had about 10 percent of their diet reserved for meat.  It was simply too hard to get.  The group today, their diet consist of about 35 percent meat.  Thats a very radical change but thats because the monkey has no chance to get away when it's gashed open, therefore, easier meat.


~~~Official Giver of Fishysticks~~~

"Anarchy is not chaos, but order without control."  

"Eudaemonia is not merely anarchy, but life without need."

"The most damaging phrase in the language is: "It's always been done that way."

My Psionics forum -  http://s7.invisionfr...dex.php?act=idx

#29    doomgirl

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 01:47 AM

animals are not "OUR" toys or here for our use, we are all part of the earth, we are all brothers and sisters, no one being is better then the other

with out animals, humans would be here, we need them, they don't need us, so therefore, they are better then us


everything has a life force of some kind


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#30    Diebytheflyguy

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 02:43 AM

Animals are based on instinct while humans are about emotions. Thats the boundary.





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