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boundary between animals and us


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#46    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 07:20 PM

QUOTE (stillcrazy @ Mar 8 2004, 06:31 PM)
Since I converted to atheism in the last 24 hours.

oh, no! really? or are you joking? dang it, lost another loan to ditech-dot- com!  


#47    stillcrazy

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 07:28 PM

QUOTE
or are you joking


No Joke


#48    Druidus

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Posted 08 March 2004 - 08:19 PM

QUOTE
i thik more what he was aying is that animals fight for supremacy, along with which comes:
food/water
mates
shelter/territory
and thats about it. humans will fight for a wide range of things.


And now I laugh.  You obviously don't know what you're talking about.  All right, sure, we fight for more then just those few things, but the things we fight for are still just that.  
Fighting for religion = Fighting to pass on aspects of yourself
Fighting for fuel = Fighting for ways to get shelter and warmth

That's about all the ones I can think of that are different then other animals.  Do you have any more?

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#49    Kismit

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 12:09 AM

I certainly don't wish to put a holt to this by coming up with an answer to  the original question . Please carry on after I'm finished with  my piece . I have thouroughly enjoyed this particular thread .
However I feel that nobody seems to have worked out what makes us different to animals . You could argue that the fact we have thumbs that work more efficiently than a chimps stunted thumb . We have learned to master more tools and to take feats of engineering to wonderous new levels .
   I think what makes us different to the animals and what sets the boundaries as human beings is spirituality . I expect to be shown the error of my ways if I'm wrong . But I have to say  I have never encountered a story of an animal that showed signs of worship or spiritual ritual .

Edit : darn spelling  disgust.gif  

Edited by Kismit, 09 March 2004 - 12:52 AM.


#50    ambyglam

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 12:45 AM

first of all animals are not our toys, they are living breathing creatures with feelings and emotions!

secondly, about the women comfort thing, im not buying that male chauvanistic crap! women are as equal as men, infact moreso, lets see some of you big hard hunter gatherer types dealing with periods and having babies!

and id like to add that as far as buddhist teachings tell, every life is equal, so therefore its NOT alright to kill animals or use them as toys! they are there as sentient beings in their own right!

and as far as animals having souls, damn right they do, but not some forced upon them idealistic christian soul, but a living, experiencing life kind of a soul.

in a way animals are lucky because they dont have religion to fall out over, they live their lives to be happy and reproduce, while having fun/heartache on the way!

and for those of you out there thinking animals in the wild dont live through these things, then they must never have seen an elephant greiving over a lost partner!

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#51    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:40 AM

QUOTE (ambyglam1)
first of all animals are not our toys, they are living breathing creatures with feelings and emotions!
  nobody is saying otherwise. 'our toys' means simply that mean folks do what they want. it does not mean that we can treat them creaully or like slaves if we please. we must still treat GOds things with respect, even though they have been given to us to use.

QUOTE (ambyglam1)
and id like to add that as far as buddhist teachings tell, every life is equal, so therefore its NOT alright to kill animals or use them as toys!
i see. it must be especially evil when i kill a deer to feed my family.

QUOTE (ambyglam1)
for those of you out there thinking animals in the wild dont live through these things, then they must never have seen an elephant greiving over a lost partner!
  neither is anyone saying that animals dont have emotions, just that their emotions are fueled by more primative instincts, and that they havnt the souls to go much further.

Edited by man_in_mudboots, 09 March 2004 - 01:46 AM.


#52    Chris_com28

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 01:56 AM

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Nice to know someone else isn't forming their argument around possession of souls

Well since a soul is scientifically undetectable ,it seems illogical to debate anything other than what you can scientifically detect or normally observe.  thumbsup.gif

QUOTE
cannot do bad because, of course, they have no moral laws or consience to go against. they cannot be good, because they cant follow the moral laws or their consciences, because they have none. animals are neither amoral nor moral, they just act.

My dog is able to know when I'm sad or pissed off and shows concern just like a human. His expressions are very human and the only difference I can find in him from other humans is expressed intelligence, his physical body and the communication difference.
Did anyone hear about the monkey that was tought sign language? He communicated well and showed an actual understanding of what he was signing. I agree that we are different from animals but other animals can differ from other animals too. It's just that we've learned to act differently because of our environment. We are sheltered so we're not always thinking of survival so we've learnt to act differently.
I believe that other animals must have the same type of spirit as humans, it's just that it's restricted my the brain, just like us.

QUOTE
Since I converted to atheism in the last 24 hours.

I wish I could remember when I became an anthiest. I think it was when I wasn't so egocentric and thinking that everyone was a Christian. Still, I did hold out for a while. It took me a few years to conform to the heerd, bow down in prayer and actualy start to believe that those beliefs are my own.

[QUOTE]But I have to say I have never encountered a story of an animal that showed signs of worship or spiritual ritual .[QUOTE]
What do you think a praying animal looks like? We all do different things when we pray meditate or whatever. Some use tools to summon entities deities, some use hand signals and some just sit with their eyes closed. Have you ever seen an animal doing something that you would call weird? You never know it could be praying.
What else could they be doing all day? No you've got me on the idea of teaching my dog to meditate.  disgust.gif
Here kim. Come on...I'm going to teach you something!  thumbsup.gif

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Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
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#53    Kismit

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:05 AM

Lol when you've taught your dog to meditate , document it for me .. laugh.gif
  I suppose using that logic I could argue that my cat does have some kind of spirtiuality , he does after all worship the power of the  can opener .  thumbsup.gif  


#54    ambyglam

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:10 AM

QUOTE (man_in_mudboots @ Mar 9 2004, 01:40 AM)
QUOTE (ambyglam1)
and id like to add that as far as buddhist teachings tell, every life is equal, so therefore its NOT alright to kill animals or use them as toys!
i see. it must be especially evil when i kill a deer to feed my family.


you are the one that lives with the cosequences, if u can feel ok about it then thet is you decision, or god's, or whatever.

but i could not do such a thing as i view all life as precious, and dont see why an animal should die so that i can live, i am no more worthy of life than any creature!

ph34r.gif  


#55    stillcrazy

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:22 AM

QUOTE
I could argue that my cat does have some kind of spirtiuality , he does after all worship the power of the can opener .


Yours too huh.

Since a soul/spirit cannot be proven to exsist, it does fall under the catagory of a myth or unexplained mystery. (That sounds like a great name for a forum)


#56    man_in_mudboots

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:42 AM

QUOTE (ambyglam1 @ Mar 9 2004, 02:10 AM)
QUOTE (man_in_mudboots @ Mar 9 2004, 01:40 AM)
QUOTE (ambyglam1)
and id like to add that as far as buddhist teachings tell, every life is equal, so therefore its NOT alright to kill animals or use them as toys!
i see. it must be especially evil when i kill a deer to feed my family.

you are the one that lives with the cosequences, if u can feel ok about it then thet is you decision, or god's, or whatever.  but i could not do such a thing as i view all life as precious, and dont see why an animal should die so that i can live, i am no more worthy of life than any creature!

oh, but when a cow is kept in a stall little more than one foot wider and one foot longer than the cow, and after barely one year of non-stop fattening and feeding, and is slaughtered and shipped to a big city, where it is degraded by being made into fast food, which you consume without a second thought, that is, until you begin to bitch constantly because the fat added by us humans made you more overwieght than your vain self image can cope with, thats fine. or are you a vegitarian?  


#57    ambyglam

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:44 AM

i think its pretty obvious that i am a vegetarian!

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#58    Druidus

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 02:45 AM

QUOTE
I think what makes us different to the animals and what sets the boundaries as human beings is spirituality . I expect to be shown the error of my ways if I'm wrong . But I have to say I have never encountered a story of an animal that showed signs of worship or spiritual ritual .


I havn't looked into it much but sometimes elephants go away and just do nothing.  They just stand there.  Could that be praying?  Also all elephants from the same herd die in one place, called an elephant graveyard.

I've enjoyed this debate as well, although I don't think one side will ever win.  People tend to cling to their true beliefs no matter what.  I'll never be able to prove that any other animals have "souls" and no one else will prove they don't.  I will always believe we are equal and I shall always believe that we are all aspects of one greater flame, the Source.

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#59    bathory

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 03:19 AM

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secondly, about the women comfort thing, im not buying that male chauvanistic crap! women are as equal as men, infact moreso, lets see some of you big hard hunter gatherer types dealing with periods and having babies!


we don't have to deal with your bra-burning feminist crap:P



#60    Xenojjin

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Posted 09 March 2004 - 03:39 AM

After reading through this it seems like their is not enough evidence to prove either side of the argument right or wrong . For instance , with the part about praying and how we can't know for sure if animals do such things . Can we prove it ? Not really .

Same with advancing in society , some may argue the humans ability to technologically advance is what separates us ... but how do we really know if other animals such as dolphins do not advance ? They are proven to be self aware and also have their own speech , perhaps dolphins pass down wisdom and logic to their young . We just cant know for sure can we ?  

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