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Barack Obama or John McCain?


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Poll: Who's your Choice for President of the USA? (114 member(s) have cast votes)

Who's your Choice for President of the USA?

  1. Barack Obama (D - IL) (48 votes [42.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.11%

  2. John McCain (R - AZ) (37 votes [32.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.46%

  3. Ralph Nader (3 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  4. Bob Barr (3 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  5. Other (please note) (23 votes [20.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.18%

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#31    Enigmatic Ghost

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 05:30 AM

Undecided I want to see all the cards upon the table, and I want to look at all things from out side the Box before I make my Vote and lot can happen and go down berfore the election...

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#32    Wickian

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 04:40 PM

AstroPro on Jul 23 2008, 06:06 AM, said:

Ralph Nader.

I'm sick and tired of corporate corruption. I'm sick of war. I'm sick of the government taking away the rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution. I'm sick of media bias, censorship and propaganda. I'm sick of the corrupt electoral system that marginalizes and censors third party candidates that threaten the status quo instituted by the wealthy corporations that play our politicians like puppets on strings. I'm sick of the CPD hoodwinking the public with their joke of a "presidential debate" controlled by corporations, with questioners preselected, major issues ignored, and third party candidates biasedly excluded despite considerable public outcry (in 2000, 64% of voters wanted Nader and Buchanan in the debates). I'm sick of emtpy suit candidates that promise change, but produce more of the same.

Am I alone?

Those that disregard Nader because they consider him "irrelevant," know that what you are implying is that we as Americans shouldn't even bother to stand up to fraud and abuse; that we must let the politicians choose our fate, kill our children, and bully other nations, and for what? Money and power. Would it be a waste of a vote to stand up for democracy? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with the courage to vote for the long shot candidate, but as long as I knew I voted for who was right, I would never, ever regret it.

Obama recently attacked Ralph Nader saying that his campaign "isn't gaining any traction," as if to say "he doesn't make any valid points, and the voters don't agree with what he has to say." Wrong! Why isn't his campaign "gaining any traction"? Because the only time the media covers him is when he says something borderline controversial. How can one move up in the polls when the media (controlled by corporations) won't give him any airtime except to critique him on rare occasions when he makes a statement that can be taken out of context and exploited for political means?

Take a look at Ralph Nader's positions. Compare issues at votenader.org. Nader most certainly is in the majority with his positions -- most importantly, Nader fights for the rights of the people in order to GIVE us the voice to dissent. Shifting the power to the people allows we the people to have the power to reform Washington. The other corporate candidates are doing exactly the opposite.

Obama has flip flopped on almost every major issue. He has sided with the corporations on every issue, and he has recently flip flopped on Iraq AND set the stage for another war (pointed out by Kucinich in the Democratic Debates) with Iran. Obama is actually the choice of the wealthy elite. He's a fraud. Special interest groups have poured millions into his campaign. As for McCain, go to therealmccain.com to see some of McCain's outright lies as well. Neither of these candidates are adequate. They don't deserve a single vote. It's a pity American voters are so naive and gullible.

It baffles me that people even consider voting for these corporate clowns.

Tweedledee or Tweedledumb, take your pick.

Vote for Obama or McCain for more of the same.


Nader was before my time(I'm 21 now, so back in '00 I was only 13 and didn't care much for the elections...), but I agree with the rest of your post.  The whole damn system is corrupt, biased and designed around the concept of preventing us from ever changing it....  Or that's how it seems to me anyway.

It really saddens me to say that we'll never have a 3rd party candidate.  It makes me even sadder that our only choices are Obama and McCain.  I would vote for a talking monkey and take the 4-year banana craze over either of those two.  What I would really like to see is having a 3rd option on the presidential election ballot "None of the above, Redo".  Then you give the current president one more year in office while we go through the farce again....



#33    Scary For Kids

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 06:04 PM

Well I know a lot of people seem to love Obama, but I think they're just projecting onto him what they want to see.
In reality I think he's just a faker, a guy who talks a lot, but doesn't say much in the end. A guy who tries to make people believe he's something he's not.

And from a "skeptical" point of view, a lot of his "message" is just new-age stuff like "The Secret".. I mean remember his stuff about "We are the ones we've been waiting for"... "We are the change we seek"... It sounds a lot like phony pseudo religion along the lines of Scientology, Charlie Manson, David Koresh and the Reverend Jim Jones to me.

(Anyway, please don't attack me because I don't like Obama. Just my two cents.)

Edited by Scary For Kids, 26 July 2008 - 06:05 PM.


#34    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 07:20 AM

AstroPro on Jul 23 2008, 04:05 PM, said:

A vote for democracy is never a "throwaway vote." A vote for either of the corporate clowns is a throwaway vote. In reality, there is no "lesser" of two evils. That much is an illusion. They are the same evil. It's people that are afraid to stand up for democracy that put people like Bush into power. Tell me, what has changed since the Democrats had reclaimed the House??? There is no REAL difference between a Democrat and a Republican, only the illusion of difference. The state of American politics today is a disgrace. Our founding fathers would be appalled.


That's bull and you know it. There are vast policy differences, which show up in terms of actual actions - witness Russ Feingold's attempts to defend civil liberties, and the fact that the Democrats actually include health care as a major issue and tried to pass it back in the Clinton Era (and were blocked by Republicans and a number of conservative Democrats). I'm sick of this Naderite, "both parties are the same - waaaaaaah!" crap that keeps emerging to justify the fact that rather than picking the lesser of two evils in a political system that was founded on compromise (look up the "Great Compromise" from the Constitutional Convention - the decision to have one of the two legislative bodies being unrepresentative - the Senate), the Naderites chose the Path of Self-Righteous Do-Nothingness that resulted in a worse outcome.

For the record, let me ask anyone out there - do you seriously think that an Al Gore Presidency would have been no different from a Bush Presidency? And don't give me that crap about how Nader only brought out people who wouldn't have otherwise vote - he took in tens of thousands of left wing voters in Florida where only 1000 more for Al Gore would have made the difference, and many of his voters were drawn from "wealthy liberals" - i.e., the environmentalist well-to-do who usually support Democrats.

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Don't forget, the Republican party was once an "irrelevant" third party. Through to the 19th Century, the two major parties were the Democrats and the Whigs. Abraham Lincoln won as a third party candidate.


The Republican Party only became a major party because the Whig Party collapsed in the early 1850s - in fact, the reason it became a major party was because so many former Whigs flocked to its banner. It was one of the Big Two in the 1860 election.

In any case, a single-district, single-voter system encourages the formation of a two-party system, since third-party candidates don't get the "50%+1" votes to actually win seats. If you don't like it, then campaign for a Parliamentary system - stop b****ing about how wrong it is that the system is dominated by two parties when it was designed that way.

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I heard that before, and it's utter nonsense. Gore spoiled Nader's chance of becoming president, how about that? Don't forget, most of the Democrats that voted for Nader otherwise wouldn't have even voted at all. Many Republicans voted for Nader as well. Also, thousands of Democrats voted for George Bush. Had they stuck with their party, Gore would have won. Also, Gore won the popular vote -- the victory was stolen from him. Using Nader as a scapegoat is just an excuse. It's leftist PROPAGANDA. It proves nothing but the ignorance, gullibility and irrationality of the electorate.


It would have only taken 1000 voters more for Gore to win Florida and the election - are you seriously telling me that out of the 75,000 odd voters who voted for Gore, many of whom were drawn from groups like the Greens and the like who usually vote on leftist issues (not to mention that Gore had been pro-environmentalist since before the Clinton Administration), that many wouldn't have voted for Gore as a second choice, resulting in his victory?

Face it, you got self-indulgent; 8 years of Clinton Presidency left you thinking that it didn't really matter if you chose the lesser of two evils, and, hey, if Bush wins, well, a little "shock" to the system would be a good thing, right?

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I can't see how voting for either of the corrupt corporate candidates will EVER solve ANYTHING!!! Both parties are driving our government into the ground. Wake Up!

Voting for Obama or McCain -- now THAT is throwing your vote away!!!!


I'll stick with actually working for a solution rather than glorifying in my All-Mighty Ability To Do Nothing While Feeling Self-Righteous About It. Is it comfortable up there in the clouds?


"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." -Sir Charles Napier

"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted."   D.H. Lawrence

#35    -Scratch-

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 05:27 AM

I would never vote for a democrat, Let alone a far left liberal such as the likes of obama.
The democratic party is by far the more corrupt, their agenda is based on bigger government, and more taxes so they may line their pockets. Its my opinion that these are elected public servants with a purpose and should be paid a median of the average paycheck in america, this isnt the case however. and much beside the point.

Obama in his 152 days in the senate has the most liberal voting record. His stance on partial birth abortions alone is enough for me to vote for ANYONE else. Not to mention his complete lack of a policy or even the hint of an idea to get the states out of the energy crisis we are in. He in fact has stated that he sees nothing wrong with gas prices other than they went up too fast, not that the price isnt too high. Im sure he would do nothing in that regard, even if the prices were to double.

His liberal base, his associations, the books he's written, all marxist communist views and opinions. He's distancing himself from all that in order to get votes. His campaign is well aware that if he were to show his true ideas (or at least the ones he's paid to believe) he'd have no chance in hell.

And lets think about this rationally, would we really want a liberal president involved with a house of representatives that somehow nancy palosi (sp?) became speaker of? Any common sense bill that is sent to the house never makes it onto the floor. As ive already mentioned the energy crisis, drilling is a good example. Nancy wont even bother to bring it up for vote... because if the american people are suffering at the pump, they will vote for the opposite party of the president, because he gets the blame, and she knows it.

If obama does get into office... i fear for the rights that are taken from the american public, the supreme court liberal nominations, the sociallist society that will be forced on the public, where if you make too much money, everyone else gets the credit, and the programs that your profits pay for. Where healthcare would not be nationalized, but rationed, and non-existant if youre deemed unworthy. The only change obama is offering is taking away the way of life we all know. The only change left after he's done with us would be whats left in our pockets.

I dont want to vote for mccain, but i will vote against obama.

Edited by -Scratch-, 29 July 2008 - 05:29 AM.

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#36    AmbientSoul

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 05:33 AM

I will be writing in Ron Paul, thank you.

Who is John Galt?

#37    InHuman

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 05:36 AM

marxist communist views.

I love this stuff.

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#38    -Scratch-

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 12:41 PM

Its nice to know that you agree with everything else i mentioned original.gif

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#39    Startraveler

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 10:13 PM

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I would never vote for a democrat, Let alone a far left liberal such as the likes of obama.


No offense but I don't think you've got the slightest idea what "far left" means.

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His liberal base, his associations, the books he's written, all marxist communist views and opinions.


Apparently you're a little hazy on Marxism, as well.

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Not to mention his complete lack of a policy or even the hint of an idea to get the states out of the energy crisis we are in.


It's astonishing that can provide a Chicken Little-esque tirade about all the dire effects Obama's policies are going to cause without (apparently) having any idea what policies he's proposing (and there are quite a few, if you cared to look).

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He's distancing himself from all that in order to get votes. His campaign is well aware that if he were to show his true ideas (or at least the ones he's paid to believe) he'd have no chance in hell.


Someone's paying Obama to be Marxist? Mind-boggling.

Quote

Any common sense bill that is sent to the house never makes it onto the floor.


What bills are you talking about? H.R._____?


Edited by Startraveler, 29 July 2008 - 10:13 PM.


#40    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 03:22 AM

-Scratch- on Jul 28 2008, 11:27 PM, said:

I would never vote for a democrat, Let alone a far left liberal such as the likes of obama.
The democratic party is by far the more corrupt, their agenda is based on bigger government, and more taxes so they may line their pockets. Its my opinion that these are elected public servants with a purpose and should be paid a median of the average paycheck in america, this isnt the case however. and much beside the point.


More corrupt than the party that allowed Halliburton and the like to over-charge Iraq and the US government on Iraqi Reconstruction, and which allowed many of the regulatory agencies to be filled by former executives of the companies supposed to be regulated? More corrupt than the party which embraced Enron until it caved in? More corrupt than the party that coddled Jack Abramoff?

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Obama in his 152 days in the senate has the most liberal voting record. His stance on partial birth abortions alone is enough for me to vote for ANYONE else. Not to mention his complete lack of a policy or even the hint of an idea to get the states out of the energy crisis we are in. He in fact has stated that he sees nothing wrong with gas prices other than they went up too fast, not that the price isnt too high. Im sure he would do nothing in that regard, even if the prices were to double.


Surely you jest. Notice how Obama even has a sub-section titled "Reduce the burden of rising gas prices on working families"?

In any case, for the record, I'm not opposed to high gas prices. They are the best way to actually get to a more efficient and less oil-dependent economy, far more than all the complex work-arounds like fuel-efficiency standards that target the supply side.

Quote

His liberal base, his associations, the books he's written, all marxist communist views and opinions. He's distancing himself from all that in order to get votes. His campaign is well aware that if he were to show his true ideas (or at least the ones he's paid to believe) he'd have no chance in hell.


"Marxist communist"? Is it comfortable there back in the 1960s? Despite that idiotic "100%" rating, Obama is arguably more centrist-left than leftist. He's embraced ideas that generally make true leftists wary, in particular his support for state-funding of church charities.

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And lets think about this rationally, would we really want a liberal president involved with a house of representatives that somehow nancy palosi (sp?) became speaker of? Any common sense bill that is sent to the house never makes it onto the floor. As ive already mentioned the energy crisis, drilling is a good example. Nancy wont even bother to bring it up for vote... because if the american people are suffering at the pump, they will vote for the opposite party of the president, because he gets the blame, and she knows it.


Who says Pelosi will be House Speaker come 2009? They have to re-choose the House Speaker every two years or so, and Pelosi's not exactly popular. Same goes for Harry Reid in the Senate.

Quote

If obama does get into office... i fear for the rights that are taken from the american public, the supreme court liberal nominations, the sociallist society that will be forced on the public, where if you make too much money, everyone else gets the credit, and the programs that your profits pay for. Where healthcare would not be nationalized, but rationed, and non-existant if youre deemed unworthy. The only change obama is offering is taking away the way of life we all know. The only change left after he's done with us would be whats left in our pockets.


Yes, because having a Supreme Court that actually recognizes limitations on the Executive Branch and a right to privacy, a government that attempts to do at least a modicum of what other countries have been doing for decades (competent universal health care), and a more reasonable level of progressive taxation is just so Marxist Communist.  rolleyes.gif



"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." -Sir Charles Napier

"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted."   D.H. Lawrence

#41    Claizen

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 07:57 AM

WickedWitchOz on Jul 26 2008, 05:25 AM, said:

Neither.

They're both the wrong choice.

McCain?

We'll never recover from the mess Bush has made with him in office. He'll be too busy finding a reason to add attack plans for Iran to the war room pin board...

Obama?  

I'd sooner hand him the keys to the local public john than elect him to the Oval Office. No way he's ready for that office. Besides, he is just not what he seems. I honestly can't tell what his real agenda is but something about him really, really  scares me, and for the record it has nothing to do with his race, religion et all. I couldn't care less who he chooses to worship, or what continents his ancestors came from. I don't chose to elect people or not elect them based on such silly issues as race or religion.

I just don't trust him, period.

As you can probably tell from the nick, I am not exactly some end of times "believer" who thinks the guy is Satan's son incarnate, but there is something about him that rings false to me.

I won't elect him just because he's seemingly the lesser of two evils.

I'm not too sure he is, shrug....

There is no "good" candidate in this one.

I usually do vote, but I can't just vote to vote, so I am likely going to sit this one out....


I totally agree with WickedWitchOz, though I'd rather choose McCain over Obama. I see Obama as an idealist and a demagogue (dunno if Im using it in the right context) for those of the younger generation. I believe that Obama isnt definite and experienced enough to run the country.

As for McCain, I'm not proud of the Bush Administration and the conservative views shared by the Republican party. And I hope when McCain suceeds in office he won't elect uber conservatives or die-hard Republicans in Congress. I hope that Congress is split Democrat/Republican.

If McCain suceeds as President and Obama as Vice President, problem solved, right?  thumbsup.gif

Unfortunately for me, I miss the legal voting age just by a couple of weeks.


#42    AROCES

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 08:58 AM

-Scratch- on Jul 29 2008, 05:27 AM, said:

If obama does get into office... i fear for the rights that are taken from the american public, the supreme court liberal nominations, the sociallist society that will be forced on the public, where if you make too much money, everyone else gets the credit, and the programs that your profits pay for. Where healthcare would not be nationalized, but rationed, and non-existant if youre deemed unworthy. The only change obama is offering is taking away the way of life we all know. The only change left after he's done with us would be whats left in our pockets.
I dont want to vote for mccain, but i will vote against obama.

I say let it be. The Democrats will do the same thing all over again when they had control of both houses, and the result will be the same.
Jimmy Carter era, and the last time was when Clinton became the President. By the mid term election voters gave the congress to the republicans


#43    Cradle of Fish

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 12:12 PM

-Scratch- on Jul 29 2008, 06:27 AM, said:

His liberal base, his associations, the books he's written, all marxist communist views and opinions. He's distancing himself from all that in order to get votes. His campaign is well aware that if he were to show his true ideas (or at least the ones he's paid to believe) he'd have no chance in hell.


Do you even know what a marxist communist would look like? He isn't calling for the proletariat to rise up and revolt against the bourgeoisie and install an atheistic Communist, leaderless, state. Socialised health care is no more a step towards communism than 'socialised' police and fire departments. He's as religious if not more than John McCain. The only thing remotely far left that I can think of is his statement about decriminalizing Marijuana(not legalizing it), which isn't marxist communist by any definition, and who knows if he'll stand by it or not.


Quote

I dont want to vote for mccain, but i will vote against obama.


That's no way to do it. If you have to vote find a third party candidate who you agree with instead of playing in the little game they have going. If you do vote for McCain you have no right to complain about anything he does.

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#44    jesspy

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 12:29 PM

Obama even though im not American (one day maybe)

If I had it my way my vote is for Fluffy Bunny, Kratos or Coldethyl for President. We need an UM member to run for pressie

Edited by jesspy, 30 July 2008 - 12:30 PM.

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#45    Finsup22

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 12:37 PM

I say Ron Paul, we need our next President to sound like he has his own line of hair products.





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