[jaylemurph]

Qoais on Jul 26 2008, 08:54 PM, said:

So am I to understand that there were two ranges of mountains called Atlas, one in Greece and one in N. Africa? Did they change the name of one of these ranges? When were the current Atlas mountains named the Atlas mountains? Anyone know?

I gotta go make some burnt offerings for the Old Fart, so can't check this out right now.

Mt Olympus isn't in a range called the Atlas Mountains. I think that's where the confusion comes in.

Also, I didn't see this the first time. It also made me laugh:

Quote

Odysseus travel looks like a way home from the pub of a very switched off person, who just enters the first house he comes across and starts to check one by one which appartment is his.

Probably because when, after a walk that's too long, Sebastian the basset hound behaves similarly. He just wanders up strange front walks as if to say "We live here, right? We can stop with walking."

--Jaylemurph

[cormac mac airt]

Qoais on Jul 26 2008, 07:54 PM, said:

I said



Jaylemurph said:




Then Jaylemurph says:



So am I to understand that there were two ranges of mountains called Atlas, one in Greece and one in N. Africa? Did they change the name of one of these ranges? When were the current Atlas mountains named the Atlas mountains? Anyone know?

I gotta go make some burnt offerings for the Old Fart, so can't check this out right now.

Qoais, I think you are mixing myths here. I looked back through a copy of New Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology which I've had since 1981. Checking upon Atlas. Mount Olympus was indeed in Greece, as mentioned earlier. The Atlas Mountains were named after Atlas who, after being defeated by Zeus for aiding the Titans in trying to defeat him, sent Atlas to the edge of the world to carry the vault of the heavens.

cormac

[Qoais]

Thanks Cormac
As I was standing over a hot stove, it came to me that I'd had this dance once before, a couple of years ago.

Ok, so we have Atlas holding up the world, somewhere in the Atlas mountains.

Silly question, I know, but who first wrote about Atlas????????? Supposedly, this is another Greek myth, but where did it originate? Atlas and Heracles were contemporaries and Heracles was supposedly alive at the Trojan war.

[marabod]

Finally, Jay, I made you laughing Thats what I am here for. It's a rudimental feature, about 25 years ago I was a political observer for one underground satirical newspaper... Nearly ended up in Siberia, thanx God coup d'etait happened.

[cormac mac airt]

Qoais on Jul 26 2008, 08:23 PM, said:

Thanks Cormac
As I was standing over a hot stove, it came to me that I'd had this dance once before, a couple of years ago.

Ok, so we have Atlas holding up the world, somewhere in the Atlas mountains.

Silly question, I know, but who first wrote about Atlas????????? Supposedly, this is another Greek myth, but where did it originate? Atlas and Heracles were contemporaries and Heracles was supposedly alive at the Trojan war.

I've never run across anything, myself, that's older than the following, so I'd say it's probably the most accurate.

Quote

Hesiod, Theogony 507 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"Now Iapetos took to wife the neat-ankled maid Klymene, daughter of Okeanos, and went up with her into one bed. And she bare him a stout-hearted son, Atlas; also she bare very glorious Menoitios and clever Prometheus, full of various wiles, and scatter-brained Epimetheus."

Homer, Odyssey 1. 52 ff (trans. Shewring) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"Atlas the baleful (oloophron); he knows the depths of all the seas, and he, no other, guards (or holds) the tall pillars that keep the sky and earth apart."

Hesiod, Theogony 507 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"Atlas through hard constraint upholds the wide heaven with unwearying head and arms, standing at the borders of the earth before the clear-voiced Hesperides (Ladies of the West); for this lot wise Zeus assigned to him."

Hesiod, Theogony 744 ff :
"There [at the sources & ends of earth, sea, Tartaros] stands the awful home of murky Nyx (Night) wrapped in dark clouds. In front of it the son of Iapetos [Atlas] stands immovably upholding the wide heaven upon his head and unwearying hands, where Nyx (Night) and Hemera (Day) draw near and greet one another as they pass the great threshold of bronze."

Homer, Odyssey 1. 52 ff (trans. Shewring) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"Atlas the baleful; he knows the depths of all the seas, and he, no other, guards (or holds) the tall pillars that keep the sky and earth apart."

Homer, Odyssey 1. 52 ff (trans. Shewring) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"Atlas the baleful; he knows the depths of all the seas, and he, no other, guards [or holds] the tall pillars that keep the sky and earth apart."

Homer, Odyssey 1. 52 ff (trans. Shewring) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"A wave-washed island [Ogygia], a wooded island in the navel of the seas. A goddess [Kalypso] has made her dwelling there whose father is Atlas the baleful."

Hesiod, Astronomy Fragment 1 (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"The stormy Peleiades . . . lovely Teygeta, and dark-faced Elektra, and Alkyone, and bright Asterope, and Kelaino, and Maia, and Merope, whom glorious Atlas begot."

Source

cormac

[marabod]

"Atlas the baleful (oloophron); he knows the depths of all the seas, and he, no other, guards (or holds) the tall pillars that keep the sky and earth apart."

Cormac, if now you return to that ocean floor map which I posted, and just relax from all previous views, looking at that "structure" right opposite the Pillars which we were talking about... Do not you find this structure to be somehow unusual for a natural elevation? Not only its almost rectangular shape looks pretty weird, but it actually consists of some parallel and almost perpendicular elevations, which upon a prolonged look may (or may not) be seen as some entirely artificial fortification, erected on the specific purpose to lock those Pillars from the rest of Atlantics. It really looks like an artificially made series of dams, preventing the escape from Gibraltar. If the modern governments had enough funds, they would've probably considered building something like that to ensure no alien subs can penetrate Allantic ocean, as the remaining narrow exits could be fully controlled by sonars. Obviously - it was more sensible to block the Gibraltar itself, but this suggsts having control over Spain and Morocco, while in the absense of such control this structure makes full military sense.

[Qoais]

Thanks again Cormac.
I was just checking on Hesiod - who seems to have lived in the 700's BC but they say he had a poem contest with Homer so that means he lived in the 900's BC. Oh well, either date is before Solon still, and we're trying to figure out where the Pillars were. I was hoping that there would be an interpretation that would settle this for sure. I know they thought there were islands in the west, (and west of Italy are Sardinia and Corsica, and then west of that we have the Balearic Islands) and then supposedly, west of that yet was another island called the underworld.

Do you know of any interpretation that give a geographical description of the place where Atlas held up the sky? Something like - where Europe and Africa meet - or whatever?

[Unknown Rebel]

Qoais on Jul 27 2008, 02:23 AM, said:

Ok, so we have Atlas holding up the world, somewhere in the Atlas mountains.

Atlas holds up the Heavens...a Celestial Sphere

[cormac mac airt]

marabod on Jul 26 2008, 10:02 PM, said:

"Atlas the baleful (oloophron); he knows the depths of all the seas, and he, no other, guards (or holds) the tall pillars that keep the sky and earth apart."

Cormac, if now you return to that ocean floor map which I posted, and just relax from all previous views, looking at that "structure" right opposite the Pillars which we were talking about... Do not you find this structure to be somehow unusual for a natural elevation? Not only its almost rectangular shape looks pretty weird, but it actually consists of some parallel and almost perpendicular elevations, which upon a prolonged look may (or may not) be seen as some entirely artificial fortification, erected on the specific purpose to lock those Pillars from the rest of Atlantics. It really looks like an artificially made series of dams, preventing the escape from Gibraltar. If the modern governments had enough funds, they would've probably considered building something like that to ensure no alien subs can penetrate Allantic ocean, as the remaining narrow exits could be fully controlled by sonars. Obviously - it was more sensible to block the Gibraltar itself, but this suggsts having control over Spain and Morocco, while in the absense of such control this structure makes full military sense.

There is no "structure" in that map. Here's another bathymetric picture from NOAA for you to look. Nothing unusual as far as I can see.



cormac

[cormac mac airt]

Qoais on Jul 26 2008, 10:07 PM, said:

Thanks again Cormac.
I was just checking on Hesiod - who seems to have lived in the 700's BC but they say he had a poem contest with Homer so that means he lived in the 900's BC. Oh well, either date is before Solon still, and we're trying to figure out where the Pillars were. I was hoping that there would be an interpretation that would settle this for sure. I know they thought there were islands in the west, (and west of Italy are Sardinia and Corsica, and then west of that we have the Balearic Islands) and then supposedly, west of that yet was another island called the underworld.

Do you know of any interpretation that give a geographical description of the place where Atlas held up the sky? Something like - where Europe and Africa meet - or whatever?

Just a general reference to the western edge of the world. Which, considering the Atlas Mountains were in some versions named for Atlas and in some versions alleged to be the remains of Atlas who was turned to stone, would indicate North Western Africa.

cormac

[Qoais]

Okaaay - so are we back to having the Pillars of Heracles at Gibraltar then?

[marabod]

cormac mac airt on Jul 27 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

There is no "structure" in that map. Here's another bathymetric picture from NOAA for you to look. Nothing unusual as far as I can see.



cormac

I can not see the map you offered - but on the one which I posted I can see that



Of course, one with your straightness may expect to see the actual people guarding the walls, but sorry, 12,000 years passed since.

[cormac mac airt]

Qoais on Jul 26 2008, 11:29 PM, said:

Okaaay - so are we back to having the Pillars of Heracles at Gibraltar then?

Sadly, its really difficult to tell how much if any truth there is to any of it. The Ancient Greeks, c. 8th century BC, were different from the earlier Mycenaeans who were in turn different from the earlier Minoans. There is no reference by either the Mycenaeans or Minoans of any place that far west. The Phoenicians are believed to have traveled outside the Pillars, yet never left any maps nor made any mention of the Pillars of Heracles, by any name. Even if Hercules existed as a person, there is too much time between his alleged lifetime and the earliest references of him to know what, if anything, would be true about him.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

Of course, one with your straightness may expect to see the actual people guarding the walls, but sorry, 12,000 years passed since.

Now you're just being ridiculous. The only thing that's on either of those maps are natural features. What you have outlined is what you want to see, which has nothing to do with Plato's account in any case.

cormac

[marabod]

cormac mac airt on Jul 27 2008, 04:55 PM, said:

Now you're just being ridiculous. The only thing that's on either of those maps are natural features. What you have outlined is what you want to see, which has nothing to do with Plato's account in any case.

cormac

Did you DIVE there to see is it natural or not? You continuously express the belief that nature has nothing to do but to create various rectangular, triangular, cubic and other perfect geometrical shapes - now, how many square hills you saw? How many cubic shape beaver huts you can demonstrate? How many rectangular islands? As for me I am only aware of the conical volcanoes and spherical fruits, all the rest is freelined.

Aren't you tired yet? Just take a break- provide at least one link in confirmation to your words! This is actually in the forum rules- if you state something you must be able to substantiate this with a reference.