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The first casuallty of war?


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#1    Kismit

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Posted 15 October 2002 - 12:29 AM

Why dosn't this kind of information make it to the 6o'clock news?http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/10/10/37968.html  :-/


#2    Homer

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Posted 15 October 2002 - 01:01 AM

You are joking aren't you Kismit? These are articles from the Pravda, after all. You know, the Russians. The Russians have so much to gain for Iraq not to be attacked and the embargo lifted, and will lose out on billions of dollars of unpaid debt from Iraq. These biased articled wouldn't be worth the time to show on the news, because their lies are designed to persuade public opinion for a financial gain.

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#3    Kismit

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Posted 15 October 2002 - 01:21 AM

Not a joke Homer . as somebody who has lived away from there own home for a long time it is very itnteresting to see how the news is filltered and altered to suit popular opinion and increase ratings. The U.N itself has claimed that there is no evidence to support Saddam Hussein is creating weapons of mass destruction.The only real evidence Georg Bush seems to have come up with is from a source he isn't at liberty to name. I think that in itself is a little odd,and please don't take offence but looking from a different perspective outside of America it is easy to see that Geoerge Bush has an invested interest in controlling more of the worlds oil supply. Don't get me wrong  I think that the people who are responsible for acts of terrorism should be hung, drawn and quarted, but wars don't usually hurt the actuall people who are responsible for the crime . Instead they tear famillies appart , and kill and maim the Innocent . I  have sat back and watched the Australian and Newzealand governments claim to have libberated Indonesia and demonstrate what wonderfull people they are knowing full well that they where responsible for  starting the problems there , but that dosen't make it to the news now does it . Propaganda  is found on all sides of all wars . The first casuallty of war is allways the truth.


#4    Homer

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Posted 15 October 2002 - 02:16 AM

Kismit,
The U.N. claiming there is no real evidence is in fact evidence of how cowardly the U.N. really is. Kofi Annan is an absolute disgrace to the U.N. and the world.

You think it's a little odd that George Bush and Tony Blair doesn't disclose all they know? Don't you understand that could compromise the source of the intelligence, thus possibly rendering that source obsolete? It's more important for the safety of the free world that governments learn all they can from these sources and deal with it appropriately, then it is for the free world to know the specifics of the source and the information they provide.

I know what you mean about war tearing families apart, and I agree with you there. But that is the nature of war. That's how war has always been fought, but that is no reason for a government to lie to it's citizens to persuade public opinion just because they are either too scared to fight for the good of the world, or too interested in their financial gain to care.


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#5    Bizarro

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 02:39 AM

wow, i actually agree with Homer.

Pravda is the same news that runs all types of wacko stories- i think ive even seen them say 'elvis discovered on the moon' once.  

i think Saddam Hussein has proven to be the jackass of the middle east.  i don't believe in war, but he must be dealt with sooner rather than later.

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#6    Halo_Jones

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 02:18 PM

Wow again! I agree with Homer and Dschwartz, nobody wants war but some people like Saddam Hussein just bring it on themselves and leave the rest of the world with no choice but to deal with them. Anyone who threatens to bombard other countries including his own with leathal chemicals which kill in such an awfull and agonising way deserves no sympathy. I have children and after seeing in the papers the pictures of those poor children in Iraq killed this way by chemicals in his experiments, I can think of no better way to dispose of this evil evil person.


#7    Mentalcase

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Posted 17 October 2002 - 06:33 PM

What scares me is, that 90% or more of the country actually want him in charge. They must be scared or stupid.

Check this http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-10-15-saddam-tikrit_x.htm

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#8    Kismit

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 08:44 AM

O.K. I dont beleive Elvis went to the moon . I,m not really sure anyones been there but thats a completely different thread altogether .Here is a little something that wont of hit the news in America (wich affects Americans ) to try and demonstrate my point about the news being manipulated in each country to only show the stuff that makes ratings. In New Zealand we have had an anti Nuclear stance for over 20 years which means we will not allow any Nuclear waste weapons or even Nuclear powered vesels within our national waters, but George Bush  has just declared that America will stop doing trade with New Zealand unless we change this. The timing is alittle ominus to say the leastI mean it's been more than 20 years ,Why now? ask yourselves. I really can't see why he is trying so hard to get nuclear access to NewZealand now and why he is trying so hard to make Allies with Australia which is one of the worlds biggest urranium minning countries in the world, I also think the Australian Government should be ashamed of them self . Who do they sell the Uranium to?, I can tell you this much they are not to choosy about whos buying the stuff .
I truly do not beleive that violence can mend a violent act . It,s like smaking your child for beating there sibling nobody learns anything except to do it harder next time so it's worth there while.
As for the fact that Saddam Husein was just voted back into power it's hardly an election if there is only 1 person running .
Of course the people love him they only get government run news They have nothing else to compare with the only true difference is that financially run news runs what we want to see and not what we need to see.


#9    Bizarro

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Posted 18 October 2002 - 01:54 PM

Kismit-  i totally agree with you that Bush is doing some bone-headed things.  i don't like his policy much, and i think he goes to great extremes to piss other countries off.  hopefully this won't last much longer than the next election.  i never accepted that he won the last one.  

as for making allies with australia:  i think maybe you are letting your local rivalries cloud your opinion of australia.  as an american, i think that australia is one of our best allies in the world.  they are in a very strategic location and they have supported us in many conflicts.  also, our cultures are more similar than those of other nations.  

this doesn't mean we value new zealand as any less of an ally.  i believe the difference is simply due to Bush being president, in that environmental issues don't matter much to him.  

(i found this off of Pravda too... thought you might get a kick out of it:  http://english.pravda.ru/fun/2002/06/20/30791_.html)

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#10    Homer

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Posted 19 October 2002 - 03:52 AM

MC,
I don't pretend to know how the Iraqis feel about their leader, but aside from the so-called election, I believe the information given to journalists by the Iraqi people are based on fear.

Kismit,
As far as the Bush Administration stopping trade with New Zealand if it doesn't change it's 'nuclear free' policy, that simply isn't true. What you are refering to is the Bush Administrations goal to have a free trade deal with Australia and New Zealand. The deal with New Zealand was thought to be concluded first, but New Zealands policy could prolong the agreement until after the agreement with Australia is concluded. So it has nothing to do with stopping trade. I do admire and respect New Zealands stance on nuclear energy, and would consider it unfortunate if the U.S. used that against them.

When you said &quot;I truly do not beleive that violence can mend a violent act&quot;, that reminded me a lot of Neville Chamberlain, who's policy of appeasement steered Hitler in the direction that started World War 2.

As far as what makes it on the news, I'm not sure if this is known outside the U.S., but the vast majority of the media inside the U.S. is anti-Bush. Which is a little different, but not too unlike Pravda. Pravda is primarily controlled by the government, who manipulates the masses with lies. News organizations in the U.S. is controlled by rich private people or corporations who spread their personal view with the news. Since most of the media is controlled by liberal minded people like Ted Turner(CNN), liberal biased news is rampant in the U.S., and they don't speak kindly of President Bush.


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#11    Kismit

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Posted 19 October 2002 - 05:01 AM

Hey . I'm really enjoying this debate .
Dswartz I was born and raised Australian I am still and hope to allways be an Australian citizen I love my country ,I just live in a different country and I deffinetly don't hold any negetive byass toward it . Allthough when I lived in Australia I was an acctive member of greenpeace ,only I found them a little to extreme for me. Part of being a member is getting provided with the information on toxic waste dumps ,nuclear test sites such as Maralinga and the updates on Uranium minning ,you know the kind of stuff,where is it mined ?, whats it used for?, and who's buying it?.What  I wrote about Australia is a shamefull thing and I am saddened by the thought of it.
Now for something different last night I was watching the news and I heard that North Korea have addmited to owning and building Nuclear weapons , and it made me think...........
Can anybody actually tell me why George Bush wants to bomb Iraq? :s9


#12    Kismit

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Posted 19 October 2002 - 05:14 AM

Dszwarts That storie was hideous   eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwww my poor moggys run and hid after reading that . sick B*s**rds yuck yuck yuck
O.K. point taken :s2


#13    Kismit

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Posted 19 October 2002 - 05:38 AM

And Homer I think youll find the fact  the anti Nuclear treaty is even an Issue  when it comes to a fair trade agreement , is a not so subtle political poke in the ribs , and the timming is still off.


#14    Homer

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Posted 20 October 2002 - 12:15 AM

Kismit,
The North Koreans never admitted to having nuclear weapons. What they admitted to was that they have not abandoned their nuclear weapons program. Everyone knew they had the program for many years, but under an agreement with the Clinton Administration, the North Koreans agreed to abandon the program for an economic gain through the American tax payer.

As far as Bush wanting to bomb Iraq, the reality is Bush wants to disarm Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program and to install a new leader. The purpose is the threat that the Iraqi regime poses. Saddam Hussein has used chemical weapons against neighboring countries and even his own citizens without remorse. N. Korea is by far the weakest country in their region, militarily and economically. Although it's poor economy is preventing it's government from becoming very stable, N. Korea is quite a bit more stable than Iraq, and has a better history with it's neighbors.

You better believe the N. Korean issue will be dealt with, but this new revelation is no reason to delay the removal of the Iraqi threat. This, by the way, is my opinion.


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#15    Kismit

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Posted 21 October 2002 - 06:59 AM

Well , well , well It appears the news was reported somewhat differently in New Zealand.... Hmmmmm we where told that North Korea not only admitted to having but to making Nuclear weopons but then it dosen't make our priminister look like she has to do something about it does it now.
Mmmmm perhaps there is a reason why it was reported differently...
It appears today that George Bush is reconsidering a total attack on Iraq .I wonder why? Of course he can't appear to be backing down so he isn't rulling out an atack alltogether, it seems I still need more reasons for a war .Iraq has had and has been testing weapons of mass distruction for years in the form of biological weapons .So many countries have and test maybe don't manufacture maybe do manufacture weapons of mass destruction. Please humor me give me a reason as to why just Sadam Hussein (and I don,t trust him anymore than any one else , but thats not a good enough reason) and why just Iraq ?
I admit that the original article that started this thread was dodgy but I can,t shake the feeling that there is a hidden agenda here , it wouldn't be the first time that a government has had one , would it?





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