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Yo, Hiliary supporters! (Die Hards)


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#31    BlindMessiah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 12:53 AM

MasterPo on Aug 29 2008, 12:46 AM, said:

Yet someone like you would be the first to cry "Why didn't someone know!" when a terrorist act happens.

Someone like me... what am I like? Please tell. How exactly do you know what I would say if another terrorist attack happened?

Quote

Laws like this don't thrill me either. But you can't monitor and prevent terrorism if you can't watch suspected terrorists.

You can monitor terrorists without violating civil liberties.  Thousands of people have been killed by terrorists. Millions have been killed by fascist empires.


#32    MasterPo

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 12:59 AM

BlindMessiah on Aug 28 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

Someone like me... what am I like? Please tell. How exactly do you know what I would say if another terrorist attack happened?


Your reaction says it all.

Quote

You can monitor terrorists without violating civil liberties.  Thousands of people have been killed by terrorists. Millions have been killed by fascist empires.


I don't deny at all the great potential for abuse.

But look at the other side: Suppose on September 10, 2001 the AG went infront of a Superior Court judge and asked for arrest warrants for the (suspected) 9/11 hijackers. The judge would ask for the evidence to support the arrests. They would have none. The judge might ask for the suposition to support the claim these people were about to do something no one has ever done before (hijack civilian planes and crash them into buildings). They would have none. So the judge would deny the arrest warrants.

And on September 12th when the news came out that the gov suspected these people of planning something but couldn't arrest them w/o a warrant, what do you think would be said on CNN and MSNBC?


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#33    BlindMessiah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:04 AM

MasterPo on Aug 29 2008, 12:59 AM, said:

Your reaction says it all.

My reaction says it all? What reaction. What are you even talking about? You didn't answer the question. What kind of person am I?

Quote

I don't deny at all the great potential for abuse.

But look at the other side: Suppose on September 10, 2001 the AG went infront of a Superior Court judge and asked for arrest warrants for the (suspected) 9/11 hijackers. The judge would ask for the evidence to support the arrests. They would have none. The judge might ask for the suposition to support the claim these people were about to do something no one has ever done before (hijack civilian planes and crash them into buildings). They would have none. So the judge would deny the arrest warrants.

And on September 12th when the news came out that the gov suspected these people of planning something but couldn't arrest them w/o a warrant, what do you think would be said on CNN and MSNBC?

This doesn't excuse the violation of civil liberties, and the constitution. When the "threat of the day" is more important than the law of the land, we've already lost.


#34    MasterPo

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:07 AM

BlindMessiah on Aug 28 2008, 09:04 PM, said:

This doesn't excuse the violation of civil liberties, and the constitution. When the "threat of the day" is more important than the law of the land, we've already lost.


Agreed.

But at the same time the Constituion isn't a suicide pact.  no.gif


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#35    Dixie-Girl

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:12 AM

Since you guys are talking about the Patrio Act, I have a real question. Just hear me out.

In the years since 9-11, there has been no terrorist attack on US soil. The government has used the Patriot Act to prevent many attacks that were well into the planning stages. This is true, you can google it easily.

I really haven't heard many stories about people's rights being abused in the name of the Patriot Act. I did hear one or two, but even on the most liberal news outlets these stories were only briefly mentioned.

If hundreds of American lives have been saved in the last 7 years, isn't that worth it? I'm not being sarcastic here. I truely want to know how it wouldn't be worth it for our government to be able to listen to, track and arrest terrorists.

Laissez les bon temps rouler!

#36    MasterPo

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:16 AM

Dixie-Girl on Aug 28 2008, 09:12 PM, said:

Since you guys are talking about the Patrio Act, I have a real question. Just hear me out.


Excellent question! Looking forward to seeing the answers.


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#37    SoulFire

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:16 AM

Dixie-Girl on Aug 29 2008, 01:12 AM, said:

Since you guys are talking about the Patrio Act, I have a real question. Just hear me out.

In the years since 9-11, there has been no terrorist attack on US soil. The government has used the Patriot Act to prevent many attacks that were well into the planning stages. This is true, you can google it easily.

I really haven't heard many stories about people's rights being abused in the name of the Patriot Act. I did hear one or two, but even on the most liberal news outlets these stories were only briefly mentioned.

If hundreds of American lives have been saved in the last 7 years, isn't that worth it? I'm not being sarcastic here. I truely want to know how it wouldn't be worth it for our government to be able to listen to, track and arrest terrorists.


i agree with you dixie.  the patriot act has probably saved thousands of lives (instead of hundreds).  but yes - it's VERY much worth it.  the only people that have a problem with the patriot act are those that have something to hide.  those that are maybe doing things that they shouldn't be doing.

Edited by SoulFire, 29 August 2008 - 01:19 AM.


#38    BlindMessiah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:21 AM

Dixie-Girl on Aug 29 2008, 01:12 AM, said:

Since you guys are talking about the Patrio Act, I have a real question. Just hear me out.

In the years since 9-11, there has been no terrorist attack on US soil. The government has used the Patriot Act to prevent many attacks that were well into the planning stages. This is true, you can google it easily.

I really haven't heard many stories about people's rights being abused in the name of the Patriot Act. I did hear one or two, but even on the most liberal news outlets these stories were only briefly mentioned.

If hundreds of American lives have been saved in the last 7 years, isn't that worth it? I'm not being sarcastic here. I truely want to know how it wouldn't be worth it for our government to be able to listen to, track and arrest terrorists.


We didn't have the patriot act on 9/11 and we had sufficient information to stop it. And of course the patriot act does good. No one is arguing whether it is capable of doing good. What we're saying is that the good it accomplishes isn't worth the cost.


#39    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:23 AM

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I can see why some Clinton supporters may support McCain.

Here's a few reasons:

-Only voted for Clinton to see a woman in office


That's certainly possible, but it makes them either ignorant, fanatical, or idiots - or all three. I don't look too fondly on Identity Politics as a reason for voting - look where it got Kenya the past year.

Quote

-Agrees with Obama on policies but believes experience is more important than policy


That makes them ignorant. Quite a few presidents have had all the leadership experience in the world - and then governed poorly, because the Presidency is a rather unique institution for which only governors have a slight taste of it, and even then it's quite different.

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-Believes that Clinton will win in 2012 if McCain wins in 2008

Not supporting any of those reasons. But it isn't fair to make blanket statements as some are doing.


The "Hillary in 2012" is possibly the stupidest reason among them all for these people. The American electoral system de facto heavily favors incumbents, yet they somehow think it will be easier for Hillary to fight off incumbent John McCain in 2012 with the support of a badly demoralized Democratic Party (after flubbing it after Bush somehow), than for a Democrat to win in 2008 with the wind at his or her back.



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#40    BlindMessiah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:23 AM

SoulFire on Aug 29 2008, 01:16 AM, said:

the only people that have a problem with the patriot act are those that have something to hide.  those that are maybe doing things that they shouldn't be doing.

I have a huge problem with the patriot act. So let's be clear, are you accusing me of criminal activity?


#41    MasterPo

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:25 AM

BlindMessiah on Aug 28 2008, 09:21 PM, said:

We didn't have the patriot act on 9/11 and we had sufficient information to stop it.


No we didn't. Not the who/what/when/where/. Don't even go there.  disgust.gif


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#42    CosmicStaR

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:26 AM

SoulFire on Aug 28 2008, 08:16 PM, said:

i agree with you dixie.  the patriot act has probably saved thousands of lives (instead of hundreds).  but yes - it's VERY much worth it.  the only people that have a problem with the patriot act are those that have something to hide.  those that are maybe doing things that they shouldn't be doing.

Untrue--I have nothing to hide and am just passionate about my personal liberities--
So easy to judge aren't some of you?

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#43    MasterPo

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:28 AM

Privacy is it's own goal. You don't have to have something to hide to want privacy.

(yea, I'm arguing both sides of the issue.)

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#44    BlindMessiah

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:51 AM

MasterPo on Aug 29 2008, 01:25 AM, said:

No we didn't. Not the who/what/when/where/. Don't even go there.  disgust.gif


O, let's go there.

-June 13, 2001: Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak claims Bin Laden Wants to Assassinate Bush with an Explosives-Filled Airplane [New York Times, 9/26/01]

-June : the German Secret Service, BND warned both the CIA and Israel in June that Middle Eastern terrorists were "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture." [Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung 9/14/01]
- Jordanian intelligence (the GID) makes a communications intercept deemed so important that King Abdullah's men relay it to Washington. The message states that a major attack, code named “The Big Wedding,” is planned inside the US and that aircraft will be used. [International Herald Tribune, 5/21/02; Christian Science Monitor, 5/23/02]

-July 2001: India Warns US of Possible Terror Attacks [Fox News, 5/17/02]

-July 2001: CIA Learns Impending Attack Widely Known in Afghanistan [9/11 Congressional Inquiry, 9/18/02]. This corresponds with evidence that bin Laden and others were telling many in Afghanistan about the attacks at this time.

-July 10, 2001: FBI Agent Ken Williams Sends Memo Warning That Inordinate Number of Muslim Extremists Are Learning to Fly in Arizona [Fortune, 5/22/02; Arizona Republic, 7/24/03]

-July 10, 2001: CIA Director George J. Tenet and his counterterrorism chief, J. Cofer Black warns national Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice that al-Qaeda was going to attack American interests, possibly in the United States itself, and that the threat required immediate action. Black later said, "The only thing we didn't do was pull the trigger to the gun we were holding to her head." [Washington Post - 1st October 2006]

-July 16, 2001: British Spy Agencies Warn al Qaeda Is in The Final Stages of Attack in the West [Times of London, 6/14/02]

-Late July 2001: Egypt Warns CIA of 20 al-Qaeda Operatives in US; Four Training to Fly; CIA Is Not Interested [CBS News, 10/9/02]

-Late July 2001: Taliban Foreign Minister Wakil Muttawakil Tries to Warn US and UN of Huge Attack Inside the US [Independent, 9/7/02; Reuters, 9/7/02]

-Late July 2001: Ex-House Judiciary Committee's Chief Investigator David Schippers Tries to Warn About Plans to Strike Buildings in New York

-Late July 2001: Argentina's Jewish Community Relays al Qaeda Attack Warning to the US [Forward, 5/31/02]

-Early August 2001: Britain Warns US Again; Specifies Multiple Airplane Hijackings

-Britain gives the US another warning about an al-Qaeda attack. The previous British warning on July 16, 2001, was vague as to method, but this warning specifies multiple airplane hijackings. This warning is said to reach President Bush. [Sunday Herald, 5/19/02]

-August 2001: Russian President Vladimir Putin Warns US of Suicide Pilots Training To Attack US Targets [Fox News, 5/17/02]
The head of Russian intelligence also later states, “We had clearly warned them” on several occasions, but they “did not pay the necessary attention.” [Agence France-Presse, 9/16/01]

-A Russian newspaper on September 12, 2001, claims, “Russian Intelligence agents know the organizers and executors of these terrorist attacks. More than that, Moscow warned Washington about preparation to these actions a couple of weeks before they happened.” Interestingly, the article claims that at least two of the terrorists were Muslim radicals from Uzbekistan. [Izvestia, 9/12/01]

-Early August 2001: Government Informant Randy Glass Warns Congressmen of Plan to Attack the WTC [Palm Beach Post, 10/17/02]

-August 2001: Moroccan Informant, Hassan Dabou, Warns US of Large Scale, Imminent Attack in New York [Agence France-Presse, 11/22/01]

-August 8-15, 2001: Israel Reportedly Warns of Major al-Qaeda Assault on the US is imminent [Fox News, 5/17/02]

-August 23-27, 2001: Minnesota FBI Agents Convinced Zacarias Moussaoui Plans to Fly Something Into The World Trade Center [Newsweek, 5/20/02]

-August 23, 2001: Mossad Reportedly Gives CIA List of 19 Terrorist Living in US Planning An Attack In The Near Future [BBC, 10/2/02]

-August 27, 2001: Spanish Police Tape Phone Calls Indicating Aviation-Based Plans to Attack US [Observer, 11/25/01]

-August 29, 2001: Cayman Islands Letter Warns of Major Terrorist Act Against US via an Airline or Airlines [Miami Herald, 9/20/01; Los Angeles Times, 9/20/01; MSNBC, 9/23/01]

-August 30-September 4, 2001: Egyptian President Hasni Mubarak Warns al-Qaeda Is in Advanced Stages of Planning Significant Attack on US [Associated Press, 12/7/01]
He says he learned this information from an agent working inside al-Qaeda. US officials deny receiving any such warning from Egypt. [ABC News, 6/4/02]

-Late August 2001: French Warning to US Echoes Earlier Israeli Warning [Fox News, 5/17/02]

-September 4, 2001: Mossad Gives Another Warning of Major, Imminent Attack [Sunday Mail, 9/16/01]

We had ample amount of knowledge to stop that attack.


#45    Dixie-Girl

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 02:01 AM

Prior to 9-11 we had the information. After 9-11, we had the will that it takes to start acting on the information we have.

Laissez les bon temps rouler!




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