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Madrid 3/11


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#1    Fenris

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 09:38 AM

Given the other thread is a condolance thread I thought it better to start a new one for discussion of peoples thoughts on the how and why this happened.

There is realy only two realistic choises for who actualy carried out this attrocity, ETA or Al Quida.

ETA... Impending general election in two days time, so the timing would definatly point to them. However the target and M.O. doesn't. ETA historicaly always gives a warning and the worst attack they ever mounted, where 21 people died in a bomb attack on a supermarket... ETA released an appology, it wasn't their normal kind of target, they have always preffered to hit political or law enforcement targets rather than causing mass carnage amongs the general civilian population.

An attack of this nature would be totaly counter productive to the aims of ETA. Since the Basque region was given autonamy their support has ebbed away, holding out for total independence is lass appealing when you have most of the freedoms already. (Long gone are the represive days of Franko). An attack of this magnatude automaticaly alienates everyone barring the most fanatical.... a level of fanatisism never before seen in the ranks of ETA, but a hallmark of Al Quida

Yes, a truckload of explosives where caught headed for Madrid just weeks ago and the drivers where from ETA..... However that doesn't mean the attacks where neccessaraly carried out by them. There is a history of 'black market' co-operation between terrorist organisations even where their ideologys preclude joint operations.

IMO the most likely ETA involvement is in selling the explosives to the group who actualy carried out the attack.

Even in the attack the appologised for, ETA did claim responsibility for it.... they haven't done so here. Al Quida HAVE made the claim.

Detonators and a tape of readings from the Quarran have been found in a van in a town where three of the trains that where bombed started their journeys into Madrid.

Al Quida have open threats of revenge attacks on the three European countrys who gave the USA the most support in the attacks on Afganistan and Iraq... UK, Italy and.... SPAIN! Spain currently has arouns 1300 troops in Peacekeeping roles in Iraq.

The scale of the attack, the lack of warning, targetting the general populous, simultainious explosions.... all fully in line with attacks Al Quida have pulled before.

Theres the basis of my current thinking on this.... any other PoV's?

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#2    Telemachos

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 09:46 AM

I read somewhere that 3/11-2004 is exactly 911 days after 9/11-2001...


#3    DespondentDave

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 09:53 AM

When I first heard of the attacks I thought it was ETA, but the more you think about it, the more the finger points to Al-Qaeda, and that's without even taking into consideration the 'claim' by the Al-Qaeda affiliated group.

ETA, when making terrorist attacks, normarily give an advance warning, even if it is coded, of an impending attack; in this case there were none. To carry out ten simultaneous attacks requires a huge amount of planning, and let us not forget the Basques do not have suicide bombers. It seems very unlikely to me that these attacks were carried out by simply leaving packages. I dare say evidence will shed some light on this over the next few days.

Other pointers to Al-Qaeda are the fact that it was 911 days since 9/11, and also exactly six months since the anniversary. Too much of a coincidence surely!?

Finally, the people of Spain did not want to be involved with the invasion of Iraq, whereas it's Government offered it's support. Al-Qaeda are quite clever; they know that reather than the people of Spain turning against them, they will turn against their Government, and blame them for dragging them into a situation they felt they should not have been in.

  


#4    Erikl

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 09:54 AM

I bet it was Al-Qaeda.
This is their pattern of actions.
And to the reasons - well, those guys are living in medieval times, thats their mentallity, so they did it as part of their religious war against the "crusaders and jews", as they like to put it.
Don't try to find logical reasons, cause you won't. They are fanatics. They lack any logic in their actions.

Edited by Erikl, 12 March 2004 - 09:54 AM.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#5    Fenris

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 10:44 AM

QUOTE
Don't try to find logical reasons, cause you won't. They are fanatics. They lack any logic in their actions.


Looks like they aren't the only ones stuck with a medevil mind-set. Just because you can't see or understand there logic it doesn't mean it isn't there. Warped yes, sociopathic most certainly but logic after a fashion and if you don't try to understand then you only make their job easier.

Understanding doesn't mean agreeing with, but it does help you understand what groups like these use to recruit new members, the nieve, the desprate, those that feel so disenfranchised and dis-abled that such actions take on an appeal.

If you can deal with the root causes that bring new recruits into their fold then you can act to reduce and even stop it over time...... and frankly THAT is absolutely the only way you will ever beat these people.

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#6    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 11:01 AM

QUOTE
Looks like they aren't the only ones stuck with a medevil mind-set. Just because you can't see or understand there logic it doesn't mean it isn't there. Warped yes, sociopathic most certainly but logic after a fashion and if you don't try to understand then you only make their job easier.

Understanding doesn't mean agreeing with, but it does help you understand what groups like these use to recruit new members, the nieve, the desprate, those that feel so disenfranchised and dis-abled that such actions take on an appeal.

If you can deal with the root causes that bring new recruits into their fold then you can act to reduce and even stop it over time...... and frankly THAT is absolutely the only way you will ever beat these people.


Totally agree with what your saying ...great post

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#7    thebarman

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 11:29 AM

QUOTE (Telemachos @ Mar 12 2004, 09:46 AM)
I read somewhere that 3/11-2004 is exactly 911 days after 9/11-2001...

It's close, it's actually 912

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#8    thebarman

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 11:32 AM

QUOTE (wunarmdscissor @ Mar 12 2004, 11:01 AM)
Totally agree with what your saying ...great post

Seconded, well said

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#9    Stamford

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 12:24 PM

QUOTE
If you can deal with the root causes that bring new recruits into their fold then you can act to reduce and even stop it over time...... and frankly THAT is absolutely the only way you will ever beat these people.


What are the root problems that compel these maniacs to destroy?

Because unless we deal with this then we are never going to stop these people.

Is it Israel? Iraq? Afghanistan? Greed? Poverty? I just don't know.

I know that the Iraq War has rallied more to the cause as has the US's and Uk's support for Israel against the Pallestinians.

The frightening thing is that the news in the UK last night was saying that Osama probably didn't even know this attack was going to take place; that his splinter groups scattered across the globe are now acting on their own.  

"The future's uncertain and the end is always near."

Jim Morrison

"When you laugh about people, so very, very lonely their only desire is to die, well I'm afraid it doesn't make me smile. I wish I could laugh. But that joke isn't funny anymore, it's too close to home and it's too near the bone... "

The Smiths

#10    Fenris

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 01:29 PM

QUOTE
Is it Israel? Iraq? Afghanistan? Greed? Poverty? I just don't know.


I think your looking at the wrong things there.

Yes the Israel situation has instigated terrorism, as has afganistan, as has Iraq... Same with Northern Ireland, Basque region, chechnia..... but why?

The only think I can see in common in all those cases is a group of people who felt imposed on, dis-empowered by another ruling group.

But that can't be all of it.... heck during the Thatcher years I felt like a minority who was dis-empowered by the ruling group (Socialist and a Union activist) but I didn't start blowing people up.... so what makes the diffrence?

I'd say... hope! Those that get to the point where terrorist groups can recruit them seem to have lost all hope that ANYTHING else they do can get them through the situation. That dispair makes them vulnerable to being manipulated and controlled, used by the likes of Bin Laden.

Both ETA and the IRA have became significantly less of a threat in the last decade, and for the same reason...... in both cases the reason they where fighting has been pulled out from under them. Basque now has autonemy and Northern Ireland has an ongoing peace process (which is far more under threat from loyalist factions trying to destablise it than from the IRA).... they lost their justification, when parts of their groups try to continue the terrorist agenda of violence, the people they are supposedly fighting for.... the people they hope will sympathise with them.... see them for what they really are... mindless thugs.

Its harder to do with a group like Al Quida, hiding behind religious fundamentalism and with Christian fundamentalist presidents playing right into their hands on occassion.... but the ETA/IRA experience does give us a clue as to A way which terrorists can be made less of a threat.... we just have to understand, learn from experience and learn how to apply those lessons.

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#11    Erikl

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 01:38 PM

QUOTE
Looks like they aren't the only ones stuck with a medevil mind-set. Just because you can't see or understand there logic it doesn't mean it isn't there. Warped yes, sociopathic most certainly but logic after a fashion and if you don't try to understand then you only make their job easier.

What logic could you possibly find in their sadistic minds?
Those are not people who fight for freedom or to improve their life (not that I agree with that kind of reasons for terrorism - there are no reasons fot that, but atleast there is a logic behind it). Those are people who think they are still fighting against the Crusaders. They are religious fanatics, not people with a clear mind. They are set to destroy western civilization and convert everyone to their kind of thinking. They are motivated by pure hatred, not unlike other forces in history.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#12    Fenris

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 01:54 PM

QUOTE
Those are people who think they are still fighting against the Crusaders. They are religious fanatics, not people with a clear mind. They are set to destroy western civilization and convert everyone to their kind of thinking. They are motivated by pure hatred, not unlike other forces in history.


You contradict yourself. You claim they have no logic then go on to explain the logic of what you suppose their position to be.... anti-western values

If you refuse to even attempt to engauge the root problem then aren't you doing exactly what your claiming they are attempting to do "I'm right, your wrong, you MUST do things MY way"? converting everyone to your kind of thinking?

The world is a big place with more cultural values than those you or I grew up with. These people are NOT born as ready made terrorists, if we can understand their mindset and educate ourselves, then we have a chance of educating others and finding ways for our various cultures to co-exist without various groups being disenfranchised and rendered hopeless.... without a great number of these people being drawn into the extreamist positions that breed terrorism.

A great deal of hatered stems from ignorance and lack of understanding.

In the dead of night
A shimmewin' wight
Gweem of a bwade
And dah devew was paid
When dah axe comes down
A chiwin' sound
Steel hits da head
Anothaw wabbit's dead
I'm a wabbit swayer
A guitaw pwayaw
With a nasty habbit

Kill dah wabbit!!! (hah hah hah)
AhhhaahooOhhh

I'm a mean mistweetah
A wabbit feastah
And I pwedict
A bwoody Eastaw
A scuwowing shadow
And dah shadow was dis wabbit
And dah night air echoes
Kill dah wabbit!!!
Kill dah wabbit!!!
.........................

#13    Stamford

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 04:09 PM

QUOTE
QUOTE 
Is it Israel? Iraq? Afghanistan? Greed? Poverty? I just don't know.



I think your looking at the wrong things there.


Actually one of the triggers for Osama's hatred of the West and primarily the US, was the fact that the Allie's troops were stationed in Saudi during the Gulf War; this he felt was an insult to Islam, the infadel's soldiers in the holy land - even though these troops were there as a launch pad to repel Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

I think that to compare ETA or the IRA with these maniacs is wrong; the aforementioned had an obvious cause the freedom of there respective countries/regions from what they saw as an invading power Britain/Spain.

Just what are Al Quida's intentions? What would it take for them to claim victory and lay down their weapons?

Do they have any demands?


"The future's uncertain and the end is always near."

Jim Morrison

"When you laugh about people, so very, very lonely their only desire is to die, well I'm afraid it doesn't make me smile. I wish I could laugh. But that joke isn't funny anymore, it's too close to home and it's too near the bone... "

The Smiths

#14    Erikl

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 08:14 PM

QUOTE
Just what are Al Quida's intentions? What would it take for them to claim victory and lay down their weapons?

Do they have any demands?

Their plans are to conquer the world, plain and simple.  ph34r.gif  

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#15    Stamford

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Posted 12 March 2004 - 10:41 PM

QUOTE
Their plans are to conquer the world, plain and simple.


Can't agree with that, i'm afraid.

Al Quida maybe a threat to world security, but their numbers are small, hence the difficulty tracking them down.

How are they going to conquer the world with such small numbers and, let's be honest, primitive weaponary?

"The future's uncertain and the end is always near."

Jim Morrison

"When you laugh about people, so very, very lonely their only desire is to die, well I'm afraid it doesn't make me smile. I wish I could laugh. But that joke isn't funny anymore, it's too close to home and it's too near the bone... "

The Smiths




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