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American Atlantis


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#751    Harte

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:47 PM

Br Cornelius on Dec 4 2008, 03:08 PM, said:

Did I not just link to evidence of their presence in South America. That could have been an accident as the article suggested, or it could have been quite within their capabilities. A simple coastal fishing dugout would be very unlikely to reach that distance.

I am afraid not, Brother.

We have plenty of Jomon artifacts dating all the way back to 14,000 BC.  But the most anyone's ever been able to grant them re. ocean travel is a skip across the Korea Straits from Kyushu Island.

Not exactly a cruise on the open sea.

linked-image

With ten thousand years worth of artifacts, surely if they had sailed to Ecuador in 2500 BC, we'd have found some evidence other than a similarity in pottery.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm inclined to be rather conservative in these areas, as you know.

What I'm thinking is that the pottery style could have accompanied some of the earliest migrants into the Americas via the Bering land bridge.  We know there were very few people here at the time, we've not really found anything resembling a semi-permanent site that these people occupied, so it might not be surprising that we don't find much pottery until they settle down somewhere.

The Valdivia pottery might just be the first place we've been able to locate any of the earlier stuff.

You realize that the pottery at Valdivia is said to resemble the old and middle Jomon style?

Here's a piece of Middle Jomon Pottery:

linked-image

Here's some of the Old Jomon style pottery:

linked-image

Here's the original paper by Meggers, Evans and Estrada your link mentiones (it's in PDF format.)
Early Formative Period of Coastal Ecuador, The Valdivia and Machalilla Phases

Maybe I'm wrong, but the Ecuadorian stuff seems waaay more like the Old Jomon style.  Bunch of pics in the PDF.

Probably there wasn't much known about the Jomon when Meggers first did her work in Ecuador.

Anyway, look here what I also found:

Quote

Population expansion
This semi-sedentary culture led to important population increases, so that the Jomon exhibit some of the highest densities known for foraging populations.[7]. Genetic mapping studies by Cavalli-Sforza have shown a pattern of genetic expansion from the area of the Sea of Japan towards the rest of eastern Asia. This appears as the third most important genetic movement in Eastern Asia (after the "Great expansion" from the African continent, and a second expansion from the area of Northern Siberia), which suggests geographical expansion during the early Jomon period. These studies also suggest that the Jomon demographic expansion may have reached America along a path following the Pacific coast.[8]

Source is the same as the Jomon pottery pictures.

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#752    darkbreed

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 12:23 AM

Some more information on the pre-colombian white & blonde people of South America:

Quote

Ancient city discovered deep in Amazonian rainforest linked to the legendary white-skinned Cloud People of Peru

A lost city discovered deep in the Amazon rainforest could unlock the secrets of a legendary tribe.

Little is known about the Cloud People of Peru, an ancient, white-skinned civilisation wiped out by disease and war in the 16th century.

But now archaeologists have uncovered a fortified citadel in a remote mountainous area of Peru known for its isolated natural beauty.

The tribe had white skin and blonde hair - features which intrigue historians, as there is no known European ancestry in the region, where most inhabitants are darker skinned.

Named because they lived in rainforests filled with cloud-like mist, the tribe later sided with the Spanish-colonialists to defeat the Incas.

But they were killed by epidemics of European diseases, such as measles and smallpox.

Much of their way of life, dating back to the ninth century, was also destroyed by pillaging, leaving little for archaeologists to examine.

Remains have been found before but scientists have high hopes of the latest find, made by an expedition to the Jamalca district in Peru's Utcubamba province, about 500 miles north-east of the capital, Lima.

Until recently, much of what was known about the lost civilisation was from Inca legends.

Even the name they called themselves is unknown. The term Chachapoyas, or 'Cloud People', was given to them by the Incas.


Full article & photos at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...eople-Peru.html

I wonder if these could have any connection to the current living people I've mentioned earlier that are white and blond and speak an incan language "Ketsja", living in a remote valley in Peru called "Valley of the White"?

Edited by darkbreed, 05 December 2008 - 12:32 AM.

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#753    Oniomancer

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 01:55 AM

darkbreed on Dec 4 2008, 07:23 PM, said:

Some more information on the pre-colombian white & blonde people of South America:



Full article & photos at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...eople-Peru.html

I wonder if these could have any connection to the current living people I've mentioned earlier that are white and blond and speak an incan language "Ketsja", living in a remote valley in Peru called "Valley of the White"?



Considering they have over 200 chachapoya mummies to examine, many of which have already undergone DNA analysis in the years since they were found, the likelyhood of anything too earthshattering in their ancestry so far seems remote. To date, apparently all they've noted is the unexpected evidence of TB infection, which was thought to've originated exclusively in the old world. (but in itself is somewhat inconclusive)

I'm curious about the period sources for this "white and blonde" claim. I noticed the article quotes a source as calling them "the whitest...of all the people I have seen" which taken in context is a bit different from saying they were actually white, depending on what else was in the original account of course.


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#754    legionromanes

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:05 AM

The Jomon have been genetically tied to northeast or southeast asia

not sundaland

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#755    Br Cornelius

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 08:20 AM

In the links supplied the Jomod are linked to Sunduland. This was by an eminent international team.

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#756    Harte

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 01:05 PM

legionromanes on Dec 4 2008, 08:05 PM, said:

The Jomon have been genetically tied to northeast or southeast asia

not sundaland

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Legionromanes,

That's cool, I guess, but where can we find this info?  I realize that evidence has shown a migration into the mainland from many of these islands around there - opposite what was originally thought.

But I wonder where genetic markers from Sundaland can be found?

I told you I know very little about the subject of genetics.  I know that you are fairly knowledgeable about it.  So, what have they found?

Did you see the entry about the Jomon participating in the migration to the New World?

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#757    legionromanes

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 02:01 PM

the Jomon arent recognised as a single group until 14,000bce
thats too late for the new world migration and too early for them to have been refugees from sundaland
the Jomon are genetically identical to ancestral groups living in southeast asia and are believed to have migrated to the Japans when they were still physically connected to Asia , the Yayoi who no one here seems to have even heard of came from northeast asia and after 10,000bce also migrated to japan where their technology and genes were added to that of the Jomon giving rise to the "initial jomon period". they did not arrive in enough numbers to supplant the Jomon culture which absorbed them

so if the Jomon did come from sundaland then the ancestral group then left when it sank and migrated to southeast asia around 4000 years after the jomon had left for Japan to an area which was populated by people with exactly the same genetics. which any of you genetecists out there will tell you is just ever so slightly impossible

this is very unlikely as it requires the movement of several pieces to give a false history and those pieces appear to have returned in all cases to the location that they originated in tens of thoiusands of years earlier

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#758    darkbreed

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 03:13 PM

Oniomancer: Regardless of the origins and ancestry of the culture mentioned in the article called the "Cloud People", which are intersting on their own, we still have that town I mentioned with white and blonde people with unknown origins. They are still around and alive today. I'm desperately trying to find out more about them but it is really hard, all I know is that a norwegian explorer went and discovered them after hearing rumors about them and people telling him it was just a legend, but then he found them in a small village in some remote area of Peru. An argentinian anthropologist had been studying them as far it was told, whom concluded that he thought their ancestors where vikings. There were also some mentioning of DNA tests that I do not know the results of, and another theory from some other scientist is that they were the offspring of dutch missionaries, something I find hard to believe considering they surely would have some knowledge in their local society about such recent origins, and some of the dutch and/or spanish language left that was used in those times. It would be strange that they speak a very old incan language and have no recollection of their own origins.

Regarding the cloud people, as far I remember the incas told about these white and blond people and fought against them, and as stated in the article the conquistadors teamed up with them to fight the incas. They were mentioned by the conquistadors in their notes as far I know, and they told about a people that was white and blond that were there already when they arrived.

So, considering we DO have a documented factual place of living white & blond people with unknown origins in Peru, and this legendary Cloud People of same attributes, it do sound plausible that there is some connection here, specially considering these cloud people lived among the Incas and likely even had the same language, which again would explain why these current living white / blond people of this mentioned village speak this incan language event to this day.

I'm really trying to find out if more research have been done here but its hard to find anything on the subject, a friend of mine is working on getting in touch with the norwegian explorer who went there and have some more details about research carried out such as the work by the argentinian anthropologist and the dna tests by other scientists, none of which whom I know the name of.

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#759    legionromanes

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 03:55 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chachapoyas_culture
lol
everything about them is native

Quote

Accounts such as that of Cieza de León indicate that the Chachapoyas had 'lighter' skin than other Native Americans of the region, and as with other anomalous populations (such as the Guanche people of the Canary Islands or the Tarim mummies), their origins and appearance are subject to speculation and exaggeration.

According to the analysis of the Chachapoyas objects made by the Antisuyo expeditions of the Amazon Archaeology Institute, the Chachapoyas do not exhibit Amazon cultural tradition but one more closely resembling an Andean one. Given that the terrain facilitates peripatric speciation - as evidenced by the high biodiversity of the Andean region - the physical attributes of the Chachapoyas are most likely reflecting founder effects, assortative mating, or related phenomena in an initially small population sharing a relatively recent common ancestor with other Amerind groups.

The anthropomorphous sarcophagi resemble imitations of funeral bundles provided with wooden masks typical of the Horizonte Medio, a dominant culture on the coast and highlands, also known as the Tiahuanaco-Huari or Wari culture. The "mausoleums" may be modified forms of the chullpa or pucullo, elements of funeral architecture observed throughout the Andes, especially in the Tiahuanaco and Huari cultures.

Population expansion into the Amazonian Andes seems to have been driven by the desire to expand agrarian land, as evidenced by extensive terracing throughout the region. The agricultural environments of both the Andes and the coastal region, characterized by its extensive desert areas and limited soil suitable for farming, became insufficient for sustaining a population like the ancestral Peruvians, which had grown for 3000 years.

This theory has been described as "mountainization of the rain forest" for both geographical and cultural reasons: first, after the fall of the tropical forests, the scenery of the Amazonian Andes changed to resemble the barren mountains of the Andes; second, the people who settled there brought their Andean culture with them. This phenomenon, which still occurs today, was repeated in the southern Amazonian Andes during the Inca Empire, which projected into the mountainous zone of Vilcabamba, raising examples of Inca architecture such as Machu Picchu.

you seem to be drawing all your "belief" from this

Quote

They are the whitest and most handsome of all the people that I have seen in Indies

which was written by a spaniard
you at no time have addressed this

Quote

Although there is archaeological evidence that people began settling this geographical area as early as 200 A.D. or before, the Chachapoyas culture is thought to have developed around 800 A.D

and they were completely exterminated shortly after the conquest, what connection is there between this and white people in peru today, if I left now I could be a white person in Peru today in about 14 hours
is there some kind of connection between this modern era native culture and your 10,000bce American Atlantis or is this just cherry picking again ?

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Edited by legionromanes, 05 December 2008 - 03:56 PM.


#760    darkbreed

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 04:58 PM

You completely fail to address what I was talking about.

The issue is:

1. We have inca stories of white blonde people, called the cloud people, living in the area back when the new world was discovered, described as both white, blond and bearded. This is found in incan and mayan legends, as well as documented by the spaniards.

2. We have white blond people with blue eyes currently living in Peru in a remote area with little research attributed to them, which speak an incan language and not spanish or anything more modern that would account for their origins if they were recent such as Dutch missionaries or spaniards etc. They surely would/should known about their own origins within their local community if it was so recent.

3. That they were "exterminated" may or may not be true. Did it ever cross your mind that even a few survived? You really think they ALL got wiped out?

4.  With the above in consideration, show me some DNA tests on these people showing their ancestory and how they ended up with blond hair and white skin and blue eyes yet still speak an ancient incan language instead of spanish or anything related to their "recent origins" if that is the case.

I am looking into this and will post more info when I find out more, as mentioned in my previous post

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#761    kidchaos

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 05:34 PM

Wow, Pls post more about this! This is very interesting! It's like a European who is not a European but an Asian. Or an Asian who is not an Asian but a European. It is amazing!

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#762    Abramelin

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 07:04 PM

Darkbreed, I think you are familiar with the "Chronicles of Akakor", written by a German journalist called Karl Brugger?

It's about a socalled white indian by the name of Tatunca Nara, interviewed by Karl Brugger.

This Tataunca Nara is no one else but some German guy pretending to be the chief of some unknown white indian tribe, the 'Ugha Mongulala"

According to this Tatunca Nara white indians were the first inhabitants of South America. Under the guidence of their 'gods', 'aliens' from a galaxy (or planet, I forgot) called "Schwerta" descended from heaven and taught these white indians, who lived like barbarians then (13000 yrs bp). They then created a great civilization in South America, with connections to the empire of 'Samon', an alien who is suggested to have been responsible for the birth of Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilization.

The story also mentions great cataclysms after which the connection between the two cultures opposite the Atlantic was lost.

And....there is also mention of the arrival of Goths around 500 AD, and German nazis at around 1945 AD.

This Tatunca Nara is the descendent of a German nurse (?) called Reinha, and a member of those white indians.

He even showed up on one of Jacques Cousteau's expeditions, the one about Coustau and his team travelling down the Amazon

But I have read online that this Tatunca Nara was nothing but some ordinairy German guy with a lot of imagination who emigrated to South America to live out his fantasies.

And all this I told you from memory. I can only hope it is correct.


EDIT: Here are some links about this guy:

http://www.rickrichards.com/ac/ac_3.html

http://www.philipcoppens.com/akahim.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatunca_Nara

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatunca_Nara





Edited by Abramelin, 05 December 2008 - 07:16 PM.


#763    legionromanes

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 07:11 PM

darkbreed on Dec 5 2008, 04:58 PM, said:

You completely fail to address what I was talking about.

uh no, in fact you don't seem to be grasping the basics well enough to understand what you are actually saying

darkbreed on Dec 5 2008, 04:58 PM, said:

1. We have inca stories of white blonde people, called the cloud people, living in the area back when the new world was discovered, described as both white, blond and bearded. This is found in incan and mayan legends, as well as documented by the spaniards.

the stories date from after 1600bce and the mayan legends youre talking about also post date the conquest and none of them say "white people, they all say "whiter than the locals, when considering the people you are talking about are andean immigrants who naturally have lighter skin than the locals I am completely seeing how there is any connection between this and the opther evidence you have no context for ?
heres is an excellent article on this exact subject
http://thehallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=...icle&sid=90

darkbreed on Dec 5 2008, 04:58 PM, said:

2. We have white blond people with blue eyes currently living in Peru in a remote area with little research attributed to them, which speak an incan language and not spanish or anything more modern that would account for their origins if they were recent such as Dutch missionaries or spaniards etc. They surely would/should known about their own origins within their local community if it was so recent.

this is basically 100% impossible if you understand basic genetics, for the people to have remained white and to have inherited this from white ancestors is impossible in such a small gene pool, unless thier dna was constantly topped up by new white arrivals they would have either mixed their lineage with the locals which would mean they were all local coloured or they would have soon found that birth defects caused by inbreeding would have made the possibility of successful copulation inviable.
the only reason that they can therefore be lighter skinned if if it is natural for them to be that colour and surprisingly enough thats exactly what anthropologists are saying

darkbreed on Dec 5 2008, 04:58 PM, said:

the physical attributes of the Chachapoyas are most likely reflecting founder effects, assortative mating, or related phenomena in an initially small population sharing a relatively recent common ancestor with other Amerind groups.

i.e. you got it wrong because you dont understand dna
this is absurdly simple and youre probably missing it because youre thinking too hard, so try this simple test
start with a limited amount of white paint and an unlimited amount of brown paint
mix 1 part white paint with 1 part brown paint, then mix the result with 1 more part brown paint, how many times do you have to mix these colours before the result resembles the original brown, now to prove your theory repeat above process until the result resembles the white paint, if you cannot do this before the white paint runs out then you might see the problem.

darkbreed on Dec 5 2008, 04:58 PM, said:

3. That they were "exterminated" may or may not be true. Did it ever cross your mind that even a few survived? You really think they ALL got wiped out?

right again even if a few survived they would have had to either have a regular fresh influx of white guy dna or they would again look just like everyone else because thats who they would have had to have been breeding with
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Dec 5 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
4.  With the above in consideration, show me some DNA tests on these people showing their ancestory and how they ended up with blond hair and white skin and blue eyes yet still speak an ancient incan language instead of spanish or anything related to their "recent origins" if that is the case.

are you are trying to claim that a dna test will reveal things like hair colour or eye pigment, how about you show me a dna test proving that they werent local, it is after all you whos making these claims about them, not me
you seem to have missed that whiteness is caused by a gene that is contained in all humans and is selected as a result of environmental pressure over the ancestral melanin gene which becomes an inhibiting factor in certain areas.
i.e. those areas which are colder than tropical, such as northern europe or anywhere in the world at altitude
so finding it in any indigenous group subjected by these pressures is not only to be expected but in fact, quite common
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Dec 5 2008, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am looking into this and will post more info when I find out more, as mentioned in my previous post

considering the amount of time you have been going on about this I am surprised you missed all of these sources
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&r...poya+&meta=
or just simply didn't post them because they dont agree with what you are saying

this really is just another example of how low you have set the bar on your evidence, for these to be survivors of atlantis they would have had to have
1) a fresh influx of white blood every generation
2) a way of stopping them from mingling their blood with the natives for like 12,000 years, thats a long time to be guarding the women
3) a way of hiding their genetic past in the recent studies that have been done showing them to be entirely indigenous and identical genetically with other andean cultures

I expect I could provide better evidence that white people didn't even exist at the time plato gave for atlantis, but of course because you are so ethnocentric you are assuming that a hypothetical lost culture would have had to have been white, aren't you
none of the other early cultures were what anthropologists would term white, however I expect a european with no understanding of genetics would describe them all as "whiter" and "more attractive" than the locals.
and that exactly what  Pedro Cieza de León did, but then he was an ignorant racist fundementalist religious ethnocentric
is there some reason you are misunderstanding the context of his words ?

thumbsup.gif

either way this can be solved easily, you have no evidence that these people are related to either Atlanteans or Europeans apart from your assumptions about race, so until you have genetic proof that this is the case what is the point in discussing it ?

in the meantime perhaps you would like to read this pdf
http://anthro.colstate.edu/Church2006.pdf
its about the ethnography and archaeology of the Chachapoyas culture
for a group who some are claiming to be of white descent its surprising how everything else about their culture from their burial practices to their language is 100% native
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#764    darkbreed

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 09:15 PM

They are there, they are not just "light skinned", they are white caucasians with blond hair and blue eyes, looking like scandinavians. And yes, some of them are mixed with the locals, approximately 50% of the mentioned village is still white/blonde/blue eyed while the rest is more mixed and more traditional latin american looking. I'm pretty sure DNA tests would be possible to use to determine their ethnic background, such as if they are native latin americans or if they are of european / scandinavian ancestry.

12 000 years are your words, not mine, I never claimed they've been there so long. I'm thinking possibly a thousand year or so myself. Depending on how many they were it is possible that they remained with their original white&blond blue eyed features to this day since then.

As far I know, you dont find any naturally born indigenous peoples of latin americas that are white skinned, blond and with blue eyes.

If I had a test showing you they are not locals I'd be more than happy to supply it to you - in fact I highly encourage anyone to supply me with such a test. That's why I'm asking for the bloody DNA tests and etc in the first place to get this figured out once and for all. Can't be that hard to go do some research on those people to determine their origins can it?

They are there, alive and kicking, scientists should be all over the place and giving some answers to the origins of these people as I have yet not seen any such information to this date even though it is years since I first heard about these people and read about them and saw the photos of them and their village in the book of Johnny Haglund, a norwegian explorer who discovered them after hearing rumours about them.

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#765    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 01:32 AM

One of my areas of interest is linguistics, which can provide a wealth of information. If these mysterious people are still there, and if they indeed had some Western origin, it strikes me as odd that linguists have never commented on the Western origin of their language. The languages of Central and South America have been studied extensively, including the many indigenous tongues, and I've never come across any remark by a linguist that a certain group of people in South America are speaking a language with Western roots.

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