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American Atlantis


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#766    darkbreed

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:58 AM

Kmt_sesh: I'm alittle confused regarding your comment. Do you mean that it is not strange that this people I am talking about is speaking an incan language if they are of more recent old world origin such as dutch missionaries or spaniards from the times of the conquistadors? Or do you mean that it IS strange that they only speak this incan language and do not have any remains of any linguistics from such a recent origin?

My hat is a little spun tonight as its Friday and got some beers in me wink2.gif

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#767    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 04:12 AM

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Or do you mean that it IS strange that they only speak this incan language and do not have any remains of any linguistics from such a recent origin?


Yes, that's what I meant. Language just doesn't work that way. Let's say these people have been in South America for around a thousand years. That's roughly how long ago Beowulf was written. Everyone here probably understands that Beowulf is the oldest-known example of written English, in what we call Old English. It's true that Old English is practically unintelligible to speakers of modern English--it takes special training to be able to read and speak it--but a trained linguist can specifically point out the relationships between Old English and modern English (such as vocabulary and forms of grammar that have survived, however different they may be now).

That's what I'm saying about these people. If they truly descended from a European origin, their language as spoken today would bear at least some evidence of that. It would stand out from the languages native to that region, at least to some extent.

I don't know to what extent the language of these people has been studied, however. Linguists have been analyzing South American languages for a long time, but I'm not familiar with these people. It's just one route I would take to studying them. Genetics would of course be another, but seeing as how I know very little about DNA analysis, I'll leave that to folks like legionromanes to argue.

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My hat is a little spun tonight as its Friday and got some beers in me  wink2.gif


I don't think you have quite enough beers in you yet because I could understand everything you just typed. Come on, get to work. laugh.gif



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#768    Oniomancer

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 05:43 AM

darkbreed on Dec 5 2008, 10:13 AM, said:

Oniomancer: Regardless of the origins and ancestry of the culture mentioned in the article called the "Cloud People", which are intersting on their own, we still have that town I mentioned with white and blonde people with unknown origins. They are still around and alive today. (snip) There were also some mentioning of DNA tests that I do not know the results of, and another theory from some other scientist is that they were the offspring of dutch missionaries, something I find hard to believe considering they surely would have some knowledge in their local society about such recent origins, and some of the dutch and/or spanish language left that was used in those times. It would be strange that they speak a very old incan language and have no recollection of their own origins.

Look up accounts of  tribal abduction/adoption of europeans in north america. A great many went completely native. That's less than a generation timewise. Figure 10 to 20 generations of that in relative isolation and things can get pretty obscured. Quite a few americans have lost track of their full ethnic background in less than that.  The "caucasianess" of the villigers to me seems possibly ever so slightly exaggerated as well. The Blonde hair is a rather dirty blonde and I couldn't help but notice the guy in the picture looks very much like a classic mestizo, still very andean in his features despite his hair.

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Regarding the cloud people, as far I remember the incas told about these white and blond people and fought against them, and as stated in the article the conquistadors teamed up with them to fight the incas. They were mentioned by the conquistadors in their notes as far I know, and they told about a people that was white and blond that were there already when they arrived.

I'm always willing to give you the benifit of the doubt but as usual, I'd still like to see some original sources for these claims of blondness. Even then, I'm probably going to have to be a nitpicker and ask for proof they weren't something like this:
http://www.amazonz.info/xingu/07-kamayura-tribe.jpg

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#769    Qoais

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:31 AM

Speaking from personal experience Kmt - I can't agree with you on how long it takes a language to disappear.  My father's family all spoke Danish.  Not one of them, taught their children the language, we all learned English.  If we were living thousands of years ago for instance, the Danish language would have been lost in the one generation and there wouldn't be a trace of it.  None of us cousins learned to even understand it, nevermind speak it.  It's gone.

Edited by Qoais, 06 December 2008 - 06:32 AM.

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#770    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 07:10 AM

Qoais on Dec 6 2008, 12:31 AM, said:

Speaking from personal experience Kmt - I can't agree with you on how long it takes a language to disappear.  My father's family all spoke Danish.  Not one of them, taught their children the language, we all learned English.  If we were living thousands of years ago for instance, the Danish language would have been lost in the one generation and there wouldn't be a trace of it.  None of us cousins learned to even understand it, nevermind speak it.  It's gone.


This is a good point, Qoais. I have to concede that, if only because your and my experience is so similar. My father's family also is Dutch, and I can remember my grandfather, grandmother, and great-aunt speaking in Dutch with one another--but I don't think my dad or his brothers ever learned to speak it, themselves. Sad, that. It wouldn't have been all that hard, considering Dutch and English are very close to each other. One of my most vivid memories from my teen years is of my grandfather lying on his death-bed and my great-aunt (his sister) speaking to him soothingly in Dutch. He died that night.

I also have to put this into perspective, however. My dad's family were immigrants, and it was in the late 1800s and early 1900s when they came to the United States. Things for immigrants were quite different then. In those days, many if not most immigrants felt compelled to learn English in order to fit in. It's how they made their place in the U.S. In many families, the native tongue was still spoken in the home, and English at work or in school. It's still largely the case today with Hispanic immigrants, for instance, but in my experience here in Chicago, at least, the need to master English is no longer so compelling for many immigrants.

Looking at the example darkbreed has brought to the table, I see something altogether different. This isn't just a family but an entire settlement. Language tends to be preserved much more firmly in that regard. Yes, in the example, these settlers would need to learn the native tongues of the people with whom they came into contact, but it wouldn't be as though the settlers would up and abandon their own tongue. Over time the languages mix and meld, and there are ample examples of this throughout the world. Given enough time the original language might well be lost, but influences from the original language would be trapped, like evidence, within the vocabulary and grammar of the modern tongue.

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#771    darkbreed

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 12:16 PM

Well, the only thing I know about the linguistic research is that some researcher from Argentina claimed he noticed links to ancient norse language, unfortunately I do not have his name or credentials, and I am currently working at trying to gain more information about him and his work as well as what other research have been done. As I mentioned a friend of mine is assisting me and trying to get in contact with the guy who documented the place as he is the one that mentioned this work as well. There is a small article about it on a norwegian news site along with an audio interview, though I guess that would not be very useful for most here. I think I posted the link to that site earlier, have to look it up again if not and if someone would be interested in it.

Will let you know what I can find out on this.

Cheers

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#772    Abramelin

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 12:31 PM

Garcilaso de la Vega, the son of a Spanish conquistador and an Incan princess, wrote a book called "Commentarios reales de los Incas" which was published in the beginning of the 17th century.

I remember that long ago I read the Dutch translation of his book, and that somehwere he said that the ruling class (the Incas) used to talk amongst eachother in a different language from what the common people spoke; the common people spoke Quechua. The common people could not understand one word of this language.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 December 2008 - 01:49 PM.


#773    darkbreed

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 01:34 PM

Interesting, I have not read that. Will have to try get a copy of it.

And thanks for supplying the correct spelling of Quechua which I misspelled as "Ketsja", I was looking for some more information on it but could not find much because of that as I had only read it like that in a norwegian paper.

Cheers

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#774    Abramelin

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 12:33 AM

You can start here:

http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Comentarios_reales

I hope your Spanish is better than mine...


#775    darkbreed

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 05:36 AM

Thanks for the link, looks interesting.

And yes while on the topic of linguistics my spanish is quite fair considering I'm living in Argentina. Though I am originally from Norway, but in my daily life I speak either english or spanish.

As of the time being, I even think in english or spanish most of the time, very rarely do I use norwegian even though its only 4 years or so since I moved from Norway.

So I do think it is quite possible for a settlement of immigrants to learn the local language, and have their original language completely gone in just a generation - I for sure have not taught my kid any norwegian.

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#776    The_Spartan

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 08:42 AM

have any of you read Gene D. Matlock's  theories that Ancient Turkey/India as the origin of the South American Civilization and even perhaps of Atlantis??

Link



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#777    legionromanes

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 02:29 PM

The Sandman on Dec 7 2008, 08:42 AM, said:

have any of you read Gene D. Matlock's  theories that Ancient Turkey/India as the origin of the South American Civilization and even perhaps of Atlantis??

Link

yes, I'll pass thanks, I do not believe that homo sapiens evolved in turkey either. Gene is a pseudo historian who has never studied genetics, if he had he'd know better
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Edited by legionromanes, 07 December 2008 - 02:29 PM.


#778    The_Spartan

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 02:53 PM

My favourite theory of the location for Atlantis is Thera/Santorini.

The Geographical proximity of the Thera/Santorini Island to the Ancient Greek Dominion. Come on, Would you expect the Atlanteans to sail from the debated locations of Americas (darkbreed's theory), Indonesia/sundaland(br. Cornelius's Theory), other locations which are mostly so far away from the ancient greek Dominion.

The geographical proof of Volcanic Eruptions in Thera.

Quote

Geological evidence shows the Thera volcano erupted numerous times over several hundred thousand years before the Minoan eruption. In a repeating process, the volcano would violently erupt, then eventually collapse into a roughly circular seawater-filled caldera, with numerous small islands forming the circle. The caldera would slowly refill with magma, building a new volcano, which erupted and then collapsed in an ongoing cyclical process.[11] Another famous volcano known to repeat a similar process is Krakatoa in Indonesia.

Immediately prior to the Minoan eruption, the walls of the caldera formed a nearly continuous ring of islands with the only entrance lying between Thera and the tiny island of Aspronisi.[11] This cataclysmic eruption was centered on a small island just north of the existing island of Nea Kameni in the centre of the then-existing caldera. The northern part of the caldera was refilled by the volcanic ash and lava, then collapsed again.
Source

The  Minoan Eruption recorded in Hsotry is of about in Mid Second Millenium BC. But geological evidence proves that there wer many other eruptions pror to the Minoan eruption.  perhaps it was one of these prior eruptions that would have destroyed whatever civilsation that was present on Thera/santorini. The Minoan Civilisation could have built upon the remains of the oder civilisation.

Recent excavations on Thera/santorini has found olive branches buried under the eruption(Link). Precise Radiocarbon dating of these btranches would give us a time frame with +/- 10 years of the catastrophe. If the dating is older than the accepted period of the minoan eruption, then the archaeologist would have a problem on their hands and minds.


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#779    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 04:20 PM

The Sandman on Dec 7 2008, 08:53 AM, said:

My favourite theory of the location for Atlantis is Thera/Santorini.

The Geographical proximity of the Thera/Santorini Island to the Ancient Greek Dominion. Come on, Would you expect the Atlanteans to sail from the debated locations of Americas (darkbreed's theory), Indonesia/sundaland(br. Cornelius's Theory), other locations which are mostly so far away from the ancient greek Dominion.

The geographical proof of Volcanic Eruptions in Thera.

Source

The  Minoan Eruption recorded in Hsotry is of about in Mid Second Millenium BC. But geological evidence proves that there wer many other eruptions pror to the Minoan eruption.  perhaps it was one of these prior eruptions that would have destroyed whatever civilsation that was present on Thera/santorini. The Minoan Civilisation could have built upon the remains of the oder civilisation.

Recent excavations on Thera/santorini has found olive branches buried under the eruption(Link). Precise Radiocarbon dating of these btranches would give us a time frame with +/- 10 years of the catastrophe. If the dating is older than the accepted period of the minoan eruption, then the archaeologist would have a problem on their hands and minds.



For those who may be wondering

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+/- 10 years
from when, here's an excerpt from the below link:

Quote

Two olive branches buried by a Minoan-era eruption of the volcano on the island of Thera (modern-day Santorini) have enabled precise radiocarbon dating of the catastrophe to 1613 BC, with an error margin of plus or minus 10 years, according to two researchers who presented conclusions of their previously published research during an event on Tuesday at the Danish Archaeological Institute of Athens.


Thera volcano in 1613 BC

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#780    kmt_sesh

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:25 AM

In my opinion the Thera event offers the single-best explanation for the origin of the Atlantis myth. It's well explained in Rodney Castleden's Atlantis Destroyed.

This would've been a catastrophic event and long remembered. By Plato's time the specifics would've been forgotten, as well as the details of the Minoan civilization most adversely affected by the eruption, but tales of it no doubt would have survived in the oral traditions and writings of numerous Mediterranean and Near Eastern cultures.

Harsh but true, the only real material we have for studying Atlantis is Plato's Critias and Timaeus. A lot of the points being argued in discussions like this one have little to do with either of these works of Plato, and are therefor suspect--if an argument greatly extends beyond the source material, its validity comes into question. Practically all of Critias and Timaeus are purely Greek in style and follow the lines of Greek mythology and tradition, and Plato's material involving Egypt is highly questionable to begin with. Egypt has no tradition involving Atlantis, in any fashion, but Plato was citing Egypt simply as a means to establish credibility for his tale: the Greeks revered the sheer antiquity of Egypt, and in the ancient world, antiquity was often the same as credibility.

Plato's work is a tale about the mythic land of Atlantis, its decline, and war with Athens. Plato and his kin had no knowledge of the Western Hemisphere, and you see nothing of it in either Critias or Timaeus. Thera, rather, offers a very plausible and logical answer.

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