41 replies to this topic

[Caesar]

BlindMessiah on Sep 6 2008, 10:08 PM, said:

ACLU is for defending the constitution. I'd be willing to bet they'll be against this. If not I'll lose all respect for the organization.


Wait, are they seriously for this plan?

Do you have a source for that?

Well you can decide

"The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court’s long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment [as set forth in the 1939 case, U.S. v. Miller] that the individual’s right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms."
Source and full report

[Incorrigible1]

BlindMessiah on Sep 6 2008, 09:08 PM, said:

"A shame the American Civil Liberties Union chooses to ignore one of the Bill of Rights."

ACLU is for defending the constitution. I'd be willing to bet they'll be against this. If not I'll lose all respect for the organization.


Wait, are they seriously for this plan?

Do you have a source for that?

Are you serious? Do you believe ACLU defends your Second Amendment rights? Heh! You're joking, right?

[BlindMessiah]

Incorrigible1 on Sep 7 2008, 04:56 AM, said:

Are you serious? Do you believe ACLU defends your Second Amendment rights? Heh! You're joking, right?

Waiting for a source, not another question.

[MasterPo]

BlindMessiah on Sep 7 2008, 12:20 AM, said:

Waiting for a source, not another question.

Over the years I have read many times in American Rifleman and other firearms magazines of how the ACLU has been contacted to help people with gun ownership rights legal issues on all three levels (Federal, state and local) and in all cases the ACLU has refused to help. Sorry for not having saved those articles over the years.

[Incorrigible1]

BlindMessiah on Sep 6 2008, 11:20 PM, said:

Waiting for a source, not another question.

Hesus Keerist, are you dense? From the ACLU's site, "Given the reference to "a well regulated Militia" and "the security of a free State," the ACLU has long taken the position that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than an individual right."

This in spite of the recent SCOTUS ruling to the contrary.

[BlindMessiah]

Incorrigible1 on Sep 7 2008, 05:24 AM, said:

Hesus Keerist, are you dense? From the ACLU's site, "Given the reference to "a well regulated Militia" and "the security of a free State," the ACLU has long taken the position that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than an individual right."

This in spite of the recent SCOTUS ruling to the contrary.

Hesus Keerist can you post a source? I didn't say you were wrong, I'm simply asking for a source. You however aren't posting one.

[Incorrigible1]

BlindMessiah on Sep 6 2008, 11:27 PM, said:

Hesus Keerist can you post a source? I didn't say you were wrong, I'm simply asking for a source. You however aren't posting one.

Is it too difficult or mind-numbing to google "ACLU on Second Amendment rights?" Wait, maybe it is. Here ya go:

http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/gen/35904res20020304.html

[Caesar]

BlindMessiah on Sep 7 2008, 12:27 AM, said:

Hesus Keerist can you post a source? I didn't say you were wrong, I'm simply asking for a source. You however aren't posting one.

I did read my posts. or google some of the quoted content

[IrishAidan07]

Can the original author of this thread provide some evidence, please.

From the A.C.L.U.

Second Amendment

The Second Amendment provides: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


ACLU POSITION

Given the reference to "a well regulated Militia" and "the security of a free State," the ACLU has long taken the position that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than an individual right. For seven decades, the Supreme Court's 1939 decision in United States v. Miller was widely understood to have endorsed that view.

The Supreme Court has now ruled otherwise. In striking down Washington D.C.'s handgun ban by a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court's 2008 decision in D.C. v. Heller held for the first time that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms, whether or not associated with a state militia.

The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.

A.C.L.U.


Now, before anyone starts giving me crap, let me give you my opinion of the A.C.L.U.

For one, I am a card-carrying member. I pay yearly fees; I attend any local events they hold in my area; and I argue their case constantly on forums such as this. However, it's become clear to me that the A.C.L.U. is influenced by the Left rather than the Constitution on some issues, perhaps even on this issue and the issue of abortion. Which is why I will not be renewing my membership. The A.C.L.U., when I joined, was a good organization that, at least in my mind, was all for protecting the Bill of Rights. Lately, however, I've noticed the influence of the Left. Now, some of you knowing my political position may think I would be all for that, but I'm not. And here is why: I am a pro-gun, pro-life liberal. I myself do not hunt, shoot rifles, or own guns, but I believe others should have the right to do so. And clearly I don't believe in abortion. These two issues aside, anytime I join an organization that claims to be independent of the political games, and I find out they are not, in fact, independent, it turns my stomach.

[acidhead]

When the second amendment was drawn up its important to realize that it wasn't because man needed a gun to hunt for food..

..everybody hunted for food across America..  It was drawn up to protect THE PEOPLE FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

That should NEVER be forgotten or OVER LOOKED.

The government couldn't protect the innocent citizens who died on 9/11 so why the hell would anybody agree to allow

them to take away the last resort of protection that you have? .. especially from BLACK-OP operations that will harm you?

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is a part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the pre-existing individual right to possess and carry weapons (i.e. "keep and bear arms") in case of confrontation.[1] Codification of the right to keep and bear arms into the Bill of Rights was influenced by a fear that the federal government would disarm the people in order to impose rule through a standing army or select militia,[2] since history had shown the way tyrants eliminated resistance to suppression of political opponents was to simply take away the people's arms and make it an offense to keep them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendm...es_Constitution




THIS IS YOUR RIGHTS.  WAKE UP PEOPLE! WAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UP

[Incorrigible1]

acidhead43 on Sep 7 2008, 01:54 AM, said:

THIS IS YOUR RIGHTS.  WAKE UP PEOPLE! WAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UPWAKE UP

Actually, THESE ARE YOUR RIGHTS.

[Michelle]

I found an online source for the information in my op.

www.nraila.org/Obama.

[Pinky Floyd]

Startraveler on Sep 6 2008, 09:06 PM, said:

Really? Was there a thread where someone simply fabricated a "ten point plan" on some policy front and attributed it to McCain? Because, no, I wouldn't like that. His policies are bad enough without having to clog the intertubes with misinformation.

The article came with references to each and every aspect of the argument that Obama is indeed against the 2nd amendment. Seems pretty clear cut to me.  I do not see where you have the basis to insinuate that this is 'misinformation'.  References are references...

FACT: Barack Obama voted against the confirmation of 2 of the 5 Justices that affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry.1
1. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 219, July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.go...on=1&vote=00219)

FACT: Barack Obama wants to re-impose the failed and discredited Clinton Gun Ban.15
15. Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes (http://www.ontheissu...Gun_Control.htm and http://www.ontheissu..._Senate_3rd.htm) Oct 21, 2004.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.3
3. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 217, Kennedy amendment July 29, 2005. (http://www.senate.go...on=1&vote=00217)

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9
9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.co...203389334.shtml)

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a complete ban on handgun ownership.2
2. Independent Voters of Illinois/Independent Precinct Organization general candidate questionnaire, Sept. 9, 1996. The responses on this survey were described in “Obama had greater role on liberal survey,” Politico, March 31, 2008. (http://www.politico..../0308/9269.html)

FACT: Barack Obama supports local gun bans in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities.4
4. David Wright, Ursula Fahy and Sunlen Miller, "Obama: 'Common Sense Regulation' On Gun Owners' Rights," ABC News' "Political Radar" Blog, http://blogs.abcnews.com, 2/15/08. (http://blogs.abcnews...-common-se.html)

FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people who use firearms in self-defense.5
5. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2004 SB 2165, vote 20.

FACT: Barack Obama supports gun owner licensing and gun registration.6
6. “Fact Check: No News In Obama's Consistent Record.” Obama ’08, December 11, 2007. (http://www.barackoba...in_obamas_c.php)

FACT: Barack Obama refused to sign a friend-of-the-court Brief in support of individual Second Amendment rights in the Heller case.

FACT: Barack Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.7
7. “Candidates' gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote,” Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Wednesday, April 2, 2008, and "Keyes, Obama Are Far Apart On Guns," Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04. (http://www.pittsburg...s/s_560181.html)

FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and “research.”8
8. 1998 Joyce Foundation Annual Report, p. 7.

FACT: Barack Obama supported a proposal to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a school or park, which would eliminate almost every gun store in America.9
9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.co...203389334.shtml)

FACT: Barack Obama voted not to notify gun owners when the state of Illinois did records searches on them.10
10. Illinois Senate, May 5, 2002, SB 1936 Con., vote 26.

FACT: Barack Obama voted against a measure to lower the Firearms Owners Identification card age minimum from 21 to 18, a measure designed to assist young people in the military.11
11. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2003, SB 2163, vote 18.

FACT: Barack Obama favors a ban on standard capacity magazines.12
12. “Clinton, Edwards, Obama on gun control,” Radio Iowa, Sunday, April 22, 2007. (http://learfield.typ...on_edwards.html)

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory micro-stamping.13
13. Chicago Tribune blogs, “Barack Obama: NIU Shootings call for action,” February 15, 2008, (http://blogs.trb.com...s_on_shoot.html)

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods.2
2. Independent Voters of Illinois/Independent Precinct Organization general candidate questionnaire, Sept. 9, 1996. The responses on this survey were described in “Obama had greater role on liberal survey,” Politico, March 31, 2008. (http://www.politico..../0308/9269.html)

FACT: Barack Obama supports repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits information on gun traces collected by the BATFE from being used in reckless lawsuits against firearm dealers and manufacturers.14
14. Barack Obama campaign website: “As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment . . .” (http://www.barackoba...aw-enforcement.)

FACT: Barack Obama supports one-gun-a-month handgun purchase restrictions.16
16. Illinois Senate, May 16, 2003, HB 2579, vote 34.

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on inexpensive handguns.9
9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.co...203389334.shtml)

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on the resale of police issued firearms, even if the money is going to police departments for replacement equipment.9
9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.co...203389334.shtml)

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory firearm training requirements for all gun owners and a ban on gun ownership for persons under the age of 21.9
9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (http://www.volokh.co...203389334.shtml)
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Gee...This seems to be a huge conspiracy here against Obama...Lead up by Obama's voting record (and his mouth) of all things...

/the Republicans are much better than I gave them credit for...
//I wonder why the left screams about the rights that 'Bushco' seems to be taking away...but has no problem (silence is appeasement) with the Dems wanting to take rights away???
///Oh...silly me..I forgot that the Dems can do no wrong...

Edited by Pinky Floyd, 07 September 2008 - 09:47 PM.

[ninjadude]

Well you can get all high and mighty about your guns but I'm all for a number of the points in the original post. Not all but certainly many of them.

[The Unseen]

Michelle on Sep 6 2008, 07:00 PM, said:

Source: American Rifleman

1) Ban use of firearms for home defense.

2) Pass Federal laws eliminating your right to carry.

3) Ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.

4) Close down 90% of the gun shops in America.

5) Ban rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.

6) Increase federal taxes on guns and ammunition.

7) Restore voting right for five million criminals including those who have been convicted of using a gun to commit a violent crime.

8) Expand the Clinton semi-automatic ban to include millions more firearms.

9) Mandate a government-issued license to purchase a firearm.

10) Appoint judges to the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal judiciary who share his views on the Second Amendment.

Publisher source.

FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!!!!!! No wonder they tried to kill him,Aint no one taking my guns with out me killing someone!!"DOWN WITH OBAMA!!"But the way it looks is like the people will vote him into office and the next thing you know"WORLD WAR 3" And we all know the war will be here in America,I'm noy saying we need to kill him but someone needs to do something.**EDIT**

**Theghost, if you can't post like a civilized adult, do not post.**