8 replies to this topic

[UM-Bot]

As humans, we have a very intuitive concept of time, and of the differences between the past, present, and future.

But, as scientists Edward Feng of the University of California, Berkeley, and Gavin Crooks of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory point out, science does not provide a clear definition of time.

View: Full Article | Source: PhysOrg.com

[REBEL]

Time goes, you say?  Ah no! Alas, Time stays, we go. ~Unknown   lol!

[Elysiumfire]

Hi There,

To that which we refer as 'time' at the level of our ordinary wakeful conscious, is fundamentally different than that which Feng & Co is seeking to quantify. In essence, Feng is not quantifying time, per se, but the mechanism (and attendent effects) of entropy. Before the scientist can actually use time as a means of measure, he must discover if time, itself, actually exists. By this I mean, does time exist independently from other quantifiable perceivings, such as 'space' and 'motion'? In other words, the question asked is...does time exist as an independent reality? If we discover through reason and logic that it does not, then our conclusion must be that it does not exist, and that which we are measuring or quantifying as a time unit (second, minute, hour...etc) is not time but a process of a natural mechanism, ie, the distance covered by a motion.

Our natural perception of time is to do with duration. We can only measure duration by the observation of a motion (no matter how small or large) which we can term as a event. A event has a beginning and a end, and between those two vectors is the duration. We cannot isolate time in order to measure or quantify time, without recourse to the measurement of something other than time. This is the problem, are we actually measuring time by quantifying the duration of a energetic process? Entropy is a energetic process of a system undergoing collapse, but does not come into play until that system has reached peak structuralization, and only whence that peak cannot be sustained does the entropic process begin. If we are to allow for entropy to be our 'arrow of time', it is logical to assume that although the entropic process could begin anytime, there is a significant period whereby entropy is held at bay, where stability (of the structure) is sustained for a duration, thereby circumnavigating the arrow of time, which we perceive as pointing toward the future. The less complexity inherent in a structure, the more relevant this issue is. Entropic process is always apparent, always threatening to collapse a system, and does so when internal/external influences upon the system are greater than the system's inate ability to sustain itself at optimum stability for whatever duration. The human body (a very complex system), for instance, does not replace all its dead and dying cells at the same time, so entropy is a constant ongoing process upon it. Eventually, entropy overwhelms the body's inate ability to regenerate, mechanisms and organs begin to fail, and death ensues. The less 'system' a system is, the longer its apparent duration in circumnavigating entropy.

Entropy is a useful guide for signposting a direction of 'virtual' time, but that is all it is, a useful guide...it says nothing about time itself, because entropy pertains only to systems and structures under collapse, which is an entirely different fundamental. Virtual time is that which we can consider as that which we perceive...time's flow, but of course, time itself (if it exists?) does not flow, only energetic processes flow, move, have motion...and they are 'in' our perception of time, not of it; thus, what we are perceiving as time is in fact a virtual representation of duration. Time is nothing more than the quale experience of durations overlapping each other. Time, per se, does not exist as a independent reality, we cannot separate it from anything that we measure. Not because time is inherent in the processes we observe, but because it is inherent in our perceivings of the overlapping durations of events. Time is more to do with consciouness, with how consciousness arises and manifests in us...therein lies the answer to our perception of time's forward momentum.

Best wishes

[Mbyte]

My friend and I came up with this question when we were 13. I was 13 and he was 15. The answer we came up with what that there was no time. It's just energy that moves and converts. Basically the only way that time regulates it's speed is by our perception of it. Otherwise without consciousness the universe would be over in an instant, not even an instant. It would be as if it doesn't exist. My friend realised that present is an instant wear future is converted to past. However one problem arised... how long was an instant of present. Were was that point wear it got converted. There is no point from what I conclude.

The past the present and the future are inevitably held within the "now" the energy is just in a different form. Past is memory. Present is what we experience and future is the corrolation of past and present. however there is no physical future, no physical past. You can't rewind energy there fore you can't go back in the past. Energy gets pushed forwards. If you were to go back in the past there are so many problems that it's absurd that scientists actually think there is time with actual past to it. You go back to that time of the dinasaurs... the universe would be smaller. So you have a body from a big universe going into a small universe. According to science the universe expands. Either you get distorted or something unimaginable or maybe it's not possible at all. What if you killed yourself in that past, you would ruin the fabric of the space time continuum?? PLEASE!!!! give me a break, not possible. The very fact that you can go back into the past and meet yourself tells us straight out that we don't mean anything because there are two of us. If you die and your mother dies years before hand then you meet in the after life at the... same time?? According to my religion teacher in school at the.. time... there is no time in heaven. Physical time is merely orbit and rotation of the earth around the sun. Also time is ametric system which possibly derived from orbital time in order to understand reality more (mathamatics). Some people come up with ideas that if you tried to kill yourself time would make you vanish in order to protect it's self.

The definiton of time is to keep an infintate number of the same bodies from existing in the same place at the same time. Or something like that. Of course I think there is no infinate number of bodies only energy.

All this knowledge makes sense in terms of the ancient oriental philosophies. Zen would be the most famous.

Edited by Mbyte, 07 September 2008 - 02:03 PM.

[chrisfreak]

Mbyte on Sep 7 2008, 03:49 PM, said:

My friend and I came up with this question when we were 13. I was 13 and he was 15. The answer we came up with what that there was no time. It's just energy that moves and converts. Basically the only way that time regulates it's speed is by our perception of it. Otherwise without consciousness the universe would be over in an instant, not even an instant. It would be as if it doesn't exist. My friend realised that present is an instant wear future is converted to past. However one problem arised... how long was an instant of present. Were was that point wear it got converted. There is no point from what I conclude.

....

I have the same idea with yours, however I find it difficult to explain to others.

[DONTEATUS]

This is a good reason to not worship time ,In any form or function.Time as they say waits for no one. Collect all your senses and sit down in a very quite room clear your mind of all thoughts,take a deep breath and just listen to your heart beat. Really listen little rythms of life telling you that you matter to the universe.try this for a few moments each day.You will know time is all yours to be within.One cannot waste time like this Its your quality Time.Just a time tip from a freind. Remember we invented the keeping of time. Let it go!

[Korbus]

Interesting discussion.

Yes, I would say time only exists as our perception.  The "past" is over, the "future" is non-existant.  The only there is, ever has been, or ever will be (relatively speaking) is this instant.  And as soon as you perceive that, the moment has passed and you are in another.

Is this what people talk about when they're high on weed?

[Shuriken]

Quote

Is this what people talk about when they're high on weed?

yep  

[odiesbsc]

What time is it?????   

Edited by odiesbsc, 08 September 2008 - 05:49 PM.