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Mother eve's tomb found?


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#1    Guru2

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 02:52 PM

While surfing online, I accidentally stumbled upon a site saying that the location of Eve's tomb is actually known, and is present in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

There is even a picture. Here is a link.

Any info? And why does this pic look so old? And haven't any studies been made to check up on that matter?


#2    seanph

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 03:05 PM

It is also a claim that the tomb of Jesus is in India. Such claims are a dime a dozen.

IMHO Adam and Eve are complete myth. The creation story found in Genesis is based on numerous older stories that were very popular in the ancient Middle East. The Hebrews simply adopted/adapted it -- changed it to fit their needs. Genesis is allegorical, not literal. It is an attempt by the ancients to understand an extremely complicated world -- how and why things came to be.

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#3    Emma_Acid

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 03:06 PM

What do you mean "actually known"??? Eve didn't exist. Its a physical and biological impossibility for the entire human race to have come from two people.

And no, any "study" into its authenticity would be an utter waste of time. Its a folk myth. And like all folk myths it isn't true.

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#4    isis-999

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 03:21 PM

I happen to believe there is no way they can say this is Eve, There is nothing to base such a claim on and like so many other ** We found it**, You just have to take the find with a grain of salt, hmm.gif

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#5    Harte

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 03:52 PM

Emma_Acid on Sep 15 2008, 10:06 AM, said:

What do you mean "actually known"??? Eve didn't exist. Its a physical and biological impossibility for the entire human race to have come from two people.

And no, any "study" into its authenticity would be an utter waste of time. Its a folk myth. And like all folk myths it isn't true.

As usual, Emma nails it again.

There is a minimum population number under which any population of any higher animal will not be viable, due to the expression of recessive genes causing birth defects and sterility.

Recessive genes get expressed when both the father and mother possess the same recessive gene, a situation that is quite common among close® relatives.

An example would be the hemophilia that runs rampant through certain European royal families due to their inbreeding.

Adam and Eve may not have been technically related, but all of their offspring would have been brothers and sisters.

Recessive city - no human race.

Edit - wow, I always wondered how you make that trademark registered r - ®.

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Edited by Harte, 15 September 2008 - 03:53 PM.

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#6    Purplos

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 04:40 PM

Quite frankly, even if Eve was an actual person (which I certainly do not believe), how could they possibly PROVE that this tomb was hers?  Bones buried with a fig leave and a bite of forbidden fruit petrified between her teeth?

Good grief.

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#7    Harte

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 04:53 PM

Purplos on Sep 15 2008, 11:40 AM, said:

Quite frankly, even if Eve was an actual person (which I certainly do not believe), how could they possibly PROVE that this tomb was hers?  Bones buried with a fig leave and a bite of forbidden fruit petrified between her teeth?

Good grief.

Wouldn't she have one rib different from the rest as well? wink2.gif

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#8    eqgumby

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 05:25 PM

You guys are so cruel.
It's an ancient site and an unusual tomb according to the article.
I'm not saying it's Eve's tomb, or even that a literal Eve existed. But it would be worth an archaeological investigation. Perhaps there is a grain of truth here, and someone is buried here that was a template for the Biblical Eve. It's ancient enough that the legend is even a mystery. I wish there was more ability and access to sites like this, for archeologies sake.

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#9    Harte

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 07:23 PM

eqgumby on Sep 15 2008, 12:25 PM, said:

You guys are so cruel.
It's an ancient site and an unusual tomb according to the article.
I'm not saying it's Eve's tomb, or even that a literal Eve existed. But it would be worth an archaeological investigation. Perhaps there is a grain of truth here, and someone is buried here that was a template for the Biblical Eve. It's ancient enough that the legend is even a mystery. I wish there was more ability and access to sites like this, for archeologies sake.

Okay, I'll bite.

How "ancient" is this tomb?  It doesn't look so ancient to me.

The linked site doesn't say.  I doubt it's any older than the Quran, given it's location.

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#10    eqgumby

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 07:48 PM

Harte on Sep 15 2008, 02:23 PM, said:

Okay, I'll bite.

How "ancient" is this tomb?  It doesn't look so ancient to me.

The linked site doesn't say.  I doubt it's any older than the Quran, given it's location.

Harte

Quote

This tradition also recounts that after Eve's death, she was buried in Jeddah, where her tomb withstood the ravages of the ages up until only half a century ago when it could still be seen from Bab Medina --one of the three main gates which surrounded the town up until 1947. In that year the wall was  demolished in order to expand the size of the rapidly growing city. Since Eve's Graveyard --as it was known-- had been venerated for so many centuries, people still stop and stare in awe at the place where the tomb used to be.  

     Historians who are not quite so enthusiastic about this particular tradition, however, trace Jeddah's existence to 2,500 years ago, when it was only a little village, home of the Quda'a tribe which survived on the great variety of fish they could find in the Red Sea.

http://www.saudicaves.com/saudi/oldjeddah.html

Quote

Quaint, but probably constructed within the last millenium, the bogus "tomb" was an enclosure whose walls marked the outline of a supposedly buried female of gigantic stature. At the head was a raised mound. Midway in the enclosure rose a small whitewashed dome, protecting from the elements a mystic black stone, El Surrah.

http://treinadoryosemite.blogspot.com/2008...am-and-eve.html
From a link to Time magazine I believe.

Now, all that said, it probably isn't more than 2000 years old (maybe 2500), but still worth looking into how such a myth would pop up in that particular place.

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#11    Harte

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 07:54 PM

eqgumby on Sep 15 2008, 02:48 PM, said:

http://www.saudicaves.com/saudi/oldjeddah.html


http://treinadoryosemite.blogspot.com/2008...am-and-eve.html
From a link to Time magazine I believe.

Now, all that said, it probably isn't more than 2000 years old (maybe 2500), but still worth looking into how such a myth would pop up in that particular place.


The info is that the city dates that far back, not the "tomb."

Would you put the (former) World Trade Center at the same age as New York City?

Harte


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#12    hetrodoxly

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 09:09 PM

To say a species can't descend from a single female isn't true, here's a model that proves otherwise. i.e. you don't need a diversity of genes.

In 1930, Israel Aharoni, a zoologist and professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, captured a mother hamster and her litter of pups in Aleppo, Syria. The hamsters were bred in Jerusalem as laboratory animals. Some escaped from the cage through a hole in the floor, so that most of the Syrian hamsters in Israel today are believed to be descended from this litter.[2] Because they were bigger than the ones Waterhouse found, they were named Mesocricetus auratus, which is now the currently accepted scientific name of the Syrian Hamster.

Descendants of these hamsters were shipped to Britain in 1931, where they came under the care of the Wellcome Bureau of Scientific Research. They bred well and two more pairs were given to the Zoological Society of London in 1932. The descendants of these were passed on to private breeders in 1937.[3]

Soon after their initial discovery, Syrian hamsters were found to make great pets. Just about all captive Syrian Hamsters today are descended from the original litter found in Syria, except for a few that were brought into the United States by travellers who found them in the desert. A separate stock of hamsters were exported from Syria into the US in 1971, but it is not known if any of today's North American pets are descended from them. Recent genetic studies involving mitochondrial DNA have confirmed that all domestic golden hamsters are descended from one female, obviously the one captured by Israel Aharoni in 1930..[

Also consider the "Seven daughters of eve" all Europeans are descended from just seven women, the human gene pool isn't that big.

Edited by hetrodoxly, 15 September 2008 - 09:23 PM.

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#13    Oderint

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 09:13 PM

even if it was possible for genesis to be true and this in fact was Eves tomb...
how would they know?

I'm assuming there's no inscription saying "here lies Eve, mother of mankind, scourge of Adam".

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#14    Harte

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 09:15 PM

hetrodoxly on Sep 15 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

To say a species can't descend from a single female isn't true, here's a model that proves otherwise. i.e. you don't need a diversity of genes.

Your model leaves out an important part of what's claimed, namely that we descend from one single male-female pair.

All descending from a single female is not at all the same - witness the fact that all humans descend from one female around 100,000 to 200,000 y.a. (depending on which mutation rate you pick for the mtDNA.)

That is not to say that there were not other mothers around at that time, just that their offspring did not survive until this day.

You absolutely do need a diversity of genes.  Hamsters, if relegated to a single mating pair, will not be viable any more than humans would be.

hetrodoxly on Sep 15 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

Recent genetic studies involving mitochondrial DNA have confirmed that all domestic golden hamsters are descended from one female, obviously the one captured by Israel Aharoni in 1930.

Perhaps "obvious" to a Biblical literalist, but not obvious to anyone that knows anything about mtDNA analysis.

Again, humans are all descended from one female, yet there is thousands of years of evidence of existence of human males and females prior to this "mitochondrial Eve" from whence we all issued.

All golden hamsters being descended from a single female tells us absolutely nothing whatsoever about which female it was.

Harte

Edited by Harte, 15 September 2008 - 09:21 PM.

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
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#15    hetrodoxly

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 09:32 PM

Harte on Sep 15 2008, 10:15 PM, said:

Your model leaves out an important part of what's claimed, namely that we descend from one single male-female pair.

All descending from a single female is not at all the same - witness the fact that all humans descend from one female around 100,000 to 200,000 y.a. (depending on which mutation rate you pick for the mtDNA.)

That is not to say that there were not other mothers around at that time, just that their offspring did not survive until this day.

You absolutely do need a diversity of genes.  Hamsters, if relegated to a single mating pair, will not be viable any more than humans would be.


Perhaps "obvious" to a Biblical literalist, but not obvious to anyone that knows anything about mtDNA analysis.

Again, humans are all descended from one female, yet there is thousands of years of evidence of existence of human males and females prior to this "mitochondrial Eve" from whence we all issued.

All golden hamsters being descended from a single female tells us absolutely nothing whatsoever about which female it was.

Harte


I'm not putting up an argument for the Eve myth, but it can be done without a diversity of genes, all golden Hamsters in the world (and there's millions) descend from one female, you can't breed any closer than that.

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