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Biden: Be Patriotic, Pay More Taxes


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#31    MasterPo

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 03:41 AM

A consumption tax inplace of an income tax does have some merit. At the very least it is totally evenly distributed. Even drug dealers will be paying tax when they buy a car. wink2.gif



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#32    HKCavalier

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 04:07 AM

MasterPo on Sep 18 2008, 07:57 PM, said:

I don't know about any stats. But I can assure you from my personal experience that at least half the people I've known couldn't manage two $1.00 bills if their life depended on it.

Astonishing misanthropy.  Maybe all the smarter folk know to steer clear?   hmm.gif


#33    Caesar

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 04:48 AM

Guardsman Bass on Sep 18 2008, 10:58 PM, said:

Funny thing about that - in spite of all the anti-tax activists' howling about how even slightly higher tax rates on the rich will cause economic stagnation, the US did quite nicely in terms of economic expansion and income from the post-war period until the 1970s, when the top income bracket in the US ranged from 91% (from the middle of World War 2 until 1964), to over 70% until the first Reagan era tax cut.

Thats because of the Vietnam War spending. even Canada did really nice about that time


#34    Caesar

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 04:50 AM

A consumption tax I think would add to inflation and consumers would spend less


#35    Caesar

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 05:38 AM

I'm sure all of the wealthy people that appeared at the fundraiser for Barack will be standing in line to pay more taxes. from the person who donated less than 1% of high income is less than compelling.


#36    Startraveler

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 06:42 AM

MasterPo on Sep 18 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

The fact that any one wants to legally limit the amount of income allowed to be kept by a person's own hard work which as brought them, all in the name of the greater good, should scare the HELL out of everyone!!


I'm curious about something so indulge me if you will. Do you buy the reasoning of T. Boone Pickens that the following is a legitimate rationale for pursuing alternative energy (and, apparently, increasing domestic drilling in the short term)?

As imports grow and world prices rise, the amount of money we send to foreign nations every year is soaring. At current oil prices, we will send $700 billion dollars out of the country this year alone — that's four times the annual cost of the Iraq war.

Projected over the next 10 years the cost will be $10 trillion — it will be the greatest transfer of wealth in the history of mankind.


Edited by Startraveler, 19 September 2008 - 06:43 AM.


#37    BlindMessiah

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:00 AM

Let's see what Jefferson had to say about income redistribution.

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


#38    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:19 AM

Caesar on Sep 18 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

Thats because of the Vietnam War spending. even Canada did really nice about that time


Mass Vietnam spending didn't kick into gear until the late 1960s, around the time when LBJ also stepped up spending for his Great Society programs. That doesn't explain the long economic expansion before them, particularly during the Eisenhower presidency (when he gutted the army, turning it entirely into a force that was supposed to be a nuclear tripwire in Europe, and instead focused on maintaining a nuclear bomber force and playing nuclear brinkmanship with the Soviets while favoring certain regional allies).

Quote

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson


Jefferson had a lot of crazy, unworkable ideas on government that never got into the Constitution (not surprising, considering that he wasn't there to help write it - Madison was the principal author), and which he himself ignored once he got into office. Besides, he was wrong; democracy didn't cease to exist once the Sixteenth Amendment passed. In fact, it arguably got more democratic as the decades got onward, as segregation ended and the income tax helped level some of the inequalities in income and wealth that came up during the Gilded Age.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." -Sir Charles Napier

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#39    BlindMessiah

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:22 AM

Guardsman Bass on Sep 19 2008, 07:19 AM, said:

Jefferson had a lot of crazy, unworkable ideas on government that never got into the Constitution (not surprising, considering that he wasn't there to help write it - Madison was the principal author), and which he himself ignored once he got into office. Besides, he was wrong; democracy didn't cease to exist once the Sixteenth Amendment passed. In fact, it arguably got more democratic as the decades got onward, as segregation ended and the income tax helped level some of the inequalities in income and wealth that came up during the Gilded Age.

I'm aware of who wrote the constitution. However, Jefferson was one of our most prominent founding fathers and one of our greatest presidents. I love how you simply discard his ideas by saying, "he was crazy." That is an easy way to deal with the beliefs of one of our country's great leaders because he disagrees with you.


#40    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:26 AM

BlindMessiah on Sep 19 2008, 01:22 AM, said:

I'm aware of who wrote the constitution. However, Jefferson was one of our most prominent founding fathers and one of our greatest presidents. I love how you simply discard his ideas by saying, "he was crazy." That is an easy way to deal with the beliefs of one of our country's great leaders because he disagrees with you.


I also pointed out that history showed him to be wrong on this point. But yes, he had quite a few ideas that simply seem naive looking back. He was a waffler on Shay's Rebellion, even though it could have toppled the government of Massachusetts, saying crap like "the tree of liberty needs to be refreshed every now and then with the blood of patriots". Like I said, he ignored most of these ideas once he got into office, taking a generally pro-federal government approach and actively expanding the United States when he had the opportunity.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." -Sir Charles Napier

"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted."   D.H. Lawrence

#41    HKCavalier

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:38 AM

BlindMessiah on Sep 19 2008, 12:22 AM, said:

I'm aware of who wrote the constitution. However, Jefferson was one of our most prominent founding fathers and one of our greatest presidents. I love how you simply discard his ideas by saying, "he was crazy." That is an easy way to deal with the beliefs of one of our country's great leaders because he disagrees with you.

Hey, I'm a big fan of Jefferson's writings, but I don't understand you.  We got income tax in this country.  That's a given.  So you telling us that taxes are EVIL really doesn't apply.  You one of these no income tax revolutionaries, fine.  You want to go flat tax, I'm there.  But you want to give the richest 1% of folk 50 ways to get out of paying and still stick the poor and middle class with the bill, I don't follow you.  If a poor man is overtaxed, he doesn't eat.  If a rich man is overtaxed, he might have to sell one of his dozen yachts.  And it's a complete myth that the poor "would not" work.  You guys act as if taxation hurt the rich like a knife in the ribs.  I don't get it.  You are not your money and nothing is free.  How we supposed to pay for this war or for these umpteen corporate bail-outs without money?  Credit?  Hey that's the ticket!  whistling2.gif




#42    Caesar

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:46 AM

Guardsman Bass on Sep 19 2008, 03:19 AM, said:

Mass Vietnam spending didn't kick into gear until the late 1960s, around the time when LBJ also stepped up spending for his Great Society programs. That doesn't explain the long economic expansion before them, particularly during the Eisenhower presidency (when he gutted the army, turning it entirely into a force that was supposed to be a nuclear tripwire in Europe, and instead focused on maintaining a nuclear bomber force and playing nuclear brinkmanship with the Soviets while favoring certain regional allies).

What charts are you looking at, I can see GDP decline and the U.S. taking up debt

Source




#43    BlindMessiah

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:47 AM

HKCavalier on Sep 19 2008, 07:38 AM, said:

Hey, I'm a big fan of Jefferson's writings, but I don't understand you.  We got income tax in this country.  That's a given.  So you telling us that taxes are EVIL really doesn't apply.

You misunderstood. I'm saying that no matter what type of tax we have it should be an equal percentage for all classes.

Quote

You one of these no income tax revolutionaries, fine. You want to go flat tax, I'm there.

I'd prefer the flat tax. It'd save a lot of government spending and simplify the system.

Quote

But you want to give the richest 1% of folk 50 ways to get out of paying and still stick the poor and middle class with the bill, I don't follow you.

I don't want to get the top 1% out of anything. I want an equal burden on all citizens based on a percentage of income or a flat tax system.

Quote

If a poor man is overtaxed, he doesn't eat.  If a rich man is overtaxed, he might have to sell one of his dozen yachts.

I'm all for helping the poor but it isn't government obligation to redistribute. What the government should do is pull its act together and cut all its wasteful spending on poor projects and cut taxes for everyone.

Quote

You guys act as if taxation hurt the rich like a knife in the ribs.  I don't get it.  You are not your money and nothing is free. How we supposed to pay for this war or for these umpteen corporate bail-outs without money?  Credit?  Hey that's the ticket!  whistling2.gif

We shouldn't be in all these wars. We should have struct Afghanistan hard to take out Osama and left. We shouldn't have troops abroad. The money we'd save just from pulling out around the world would allow for major tax cuts.


#44    Caesar

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:50 AM

And what would happen to our economy if we had another terrorists attack with the conditions they are in now?


#45    HKCavalier

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:54 AM

BlindMessiah on Sep 19 2008, 12:47 AM, said:

You misunderstood. I'm saying that no matter what type of tax we have it should be an equal percentage for all classes.


I'd prefer the flat tax. It'd save a lot of government spending and simplify the system.


I don't want to get the top 1% out of anything. I want an equal burden on all citizens based on a percentage of income or a flat tax system.


I'm all for helping the poor but it isn't government obligation to redistribute. What the government should do is pull its act together and cut all its wasteful spending on poor projects and cut taxes for everyone.


We shouldn't be in all these wars. We should have struct Afghanistan hard to take out Osama and left. We shouldn't have troops abroad. The money we'd save just from pulling out around the world would allow for major tax cuts.

BlindMessiah for President! thumbsup.gif





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