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#16    IrishAidan07

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 06:53 AM

Just because someone says something doesn't make it so. If I do cast my vote for McCain, I don't do so blindly, demurely meandering about thinking he will deliver on any and all of his promises that I agree with - like alternative energy. Given Biden's past, it is not unreasonable to assume that Biden will say and do anything to get a vote.

For example, I am a pro-life liberal. But despite not being a one or two issue voter, I don't vote for Republicans for this simple fact: Republicans could have gotten rid of abortion when they controlled all three branches of government. But did they? No. Why? because if they got rid of it, they would lose a huge issue that brings idiots to the polls.

I don't for a minute believe the Republican Party, generally, is concerned with getting rid of abortion. I don't believe Biden gives a damn about Women's Issues either.

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 06:55 AM.

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#17    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:09 AM

IrishAidan on Sep 18 2008, 10:19 PM, said:

The editor of the paper I work at asked me to write an Op-Ed about the election. Normally, I don't write Op-Eds. Usually, more experienced writers get the job. Anyway, here is what I gave him. I know many of the Liberals will be at my throat about this, but oh well.

Obama, I'm Sorry

First and foremost, I am a tried and true liberal. I take no issue whatsoever with the rich being unfairly taxed; I completely disagree with the war in Iraq; I want staunch liberal judges appointed to the Supreme Court; I want homosexuals to marry on the steps of every courthouse in the nation; and I hug trees and kiss the picture of a caribou on the weekends, mourning my moose brethren that will surely be lost in ANWR.

But I might be voting for McCain & Palin. (Yes, it really does say that!)


This alone means that you've lost any respect I ever had for you. You claim that you are a staunch liberal, with clear convictions - yet you would be willing to vote for the opposition party that stands for the complete opposite of everything you believe in, just believe you think Biden is a dishonest politician? Come on - even assuming Obama is a mediocrity and Biden a scandal-plagued VP, at the end of the day Democratic legislation will get passed if the Democrats have a majority in Congress (as it seems like they will be getting). That alone is reason to vote for the Democratic ticket, particularly since we've had corrupt (Grant), incompetent (Harding), douchebag (Wilson), and liar (Johnson) presidents before, yet the Republic has survived.

Yet you would actively vote for the opposition? Frankly, I think you are either lying, or under a "Bush 2000" -style delusion. Lots of people in the moderate Democrat camps convinced themselves that he wouldn't be so bad, either - they didn't bother to look up his history as governor, or the advisors he relied upon.

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The idea of Joe Biden, the plagiarist, being a mere left ventricle contraction away from the most important office on the face of the Earth is just too much for me to bear. If - God forbid - something happen to President Obama and Vice President Biden (I'm cringing right now) were sworn in to office, throwing around that patented smile (probably is)  he paints on at the idea of a vote, I would just SCREAM!!!!


So what? Even if he is a dishonest prick who occasionally plagiarizes, that doesn't mean he can't be a good president, or at least a moderate one. The Bush Administration alone makes Biden look like Jesus.

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Unfortunately for my reputation, I gave Obama far too much credit when it became evident he was going to be the nominee of the Democratic Party. Obama's oratory skill alone is enough to assume his political acumen and general intelligence would propel him to choose a decent running mate. But boy was I wrong.


Perhaps because Obama, unlike McCain, didn't want a running mate who was supposed to turn into a potted plant after November 5. From what I've read in the New York Times and the like, Obama placed value on a running mate who could "step in" were he to run into problems, and Biden is the man for that type of thing. He's actually a VP for a sitting president, not a candidate for President.

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I feel like a first-class schmuck. (Yeah, I really do!)


No, you're just an idiot.

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Even before the inevitable was apparent, I ran around town and net trying to convert Clintonites and  Edwardos to Obamacrats.. “Come on, man. Obama is a young, intelligent, handsome candidate of real change. Pledge your vote for him!” I was on the Vote Obama train all the way to the White House – or so I thought.

Let's look at the rationale for choosing a running mate like Biden.  For one, he's experienced in foreign affairs, a quality Obama was sorely lacking. And for two....okay, I got nothing.


The second reason was that Biden was supposed to be aggressive where Obama couldn't be - a throwback to a more bare-knuckles Irish-style of doing politics. That was probably over-hyped, but he has been clever in debates before (one of Obama's weak areas, in my opinions).

In any case, what's wrong with the first reason, even if that's the only one? Obama is clearly lacking in experience with foreign affairs, and Biden, at the very least, can give him loads of advice and talk intelligently with Obama's advisors in that area. Can you imagine Palin sitting in on a meeting with the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Director of Central Intelligence, and National Defense Advisor and being able to ask intelligent questions as well as really helping to shape foreign policy proposals?

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Seriously, was foreign affairs experience the only reason Obama chose Biden? If so, how many other candidates not prone to plagiarism have such experience? Numerous! Chris Dodd, despite having funny eyebrows, would have been, in my opinion, a glorious choice. But nope, Obama couldn't help me save face. He just had to pick ol' Joe!


Biden has been in longer, and longer specifically in the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee.

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So, why do I despise him so much?

Good question. First of all, I can't stand his charlatan-like smile. I can't explain it, but every time he smiles I just know something nefarious is going on in that brain of his. “Hmm. Who can I plagiarize next?” or  “Hmm. What other issue could I be hypocritical about?”


Great. That's just what we need - another voter deciding to vote for entirely trivial bull reasons. Have a cookie.

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He's thinking something crooked, I just know it. Facial gestures aside, however, there are other reasons I won't vote for any ticket with his name on it.

The plagiarism, for example, is well-known. He stole a speech by British politician Neil Kinnock, nearly word-for-word. But Biden was also charged with plagiarism during his first year at Syracuse Law which, perhaps, can be overlooked or written-off as a typical college kid mistake. But when you're a United States Senator with a charge of dishonesty already on your record, even if it was in college, doing it again means you're intellectually lazy – period. Bush jokes aside, I don't want someone like that making decisions that impact me and my family.


He's hardly the first president to steal credit for another politician's proposal (and Startraveler has gone into much better detail on this than I could ever hope to).

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Now what about Senator Biden's hypocritical tendencies?  Many of you are saying, “What gives, liberal?” Well, what gives is all the strong words Biden has for Bush on Iraq, whilst forgetting his previous blather.

In 2002 on Meet The Press,  Biden said of Saddam Hussein, “He’s a long term threat and a short term threat to our national security… We have no choice but to eliminate the threat. This is a guy who is an extreme danger to the world.”  

Also in 2002, “We must be clear with the American people that we are committing to Iraq for the long haul; not just the day after, but the decade after.”

But now Iraq was a big mistake and we need to leave? Gee, Joe. Which one is it?


Biden isn't omnipotent, and he doesn't run a intelligence operation out of his pocket.

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Anyway, you don't need a liberal like me telling you any of this stuff. All you have to do is Google search Joe Biden and you'll find several different articles by the non-elite press on the matter of Biden's dishonesty and stupidity. I just wanted to lament.


I'll leave this to Startraveler, if you don't mind.

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John McCain is an American hero. A fact even my party will acknowledge.


We've had several presidents who also happened to be "American heroes". Among their hallowed ranks were Andrew Jackson, Benjamin Harrison, Ulysses S. Grant, and John F. Kennedy. American heroes, yes (more so than McCain, whose sole claim to heroism is that he spent 5 years in a Vietnamese POW camp. Join the crowd - my step grand-father did the same, spending five years in a Nazi German POW camp after being captured at Dunkirk in 1940), but terrible presidents, by and large.

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His decisions are not based on polls; a fact evident throughout his career.


He's such a maverick that he turned his campaign over to an old Karl Rove protege and turned into a robot.

Seriously, did you just sleep through the politics of the past 7 years? He's steadily flip-flopped on almost every issue he once took a stand on. He once stood up to Jerry Falwell and his Christofascist crowd, calling them agents of intolerance - but six years later, there he was at Falwell's Liberty University, sucking up to him. He once took a stand against the Bush tax cuts for not including greater spending - but his own tax cuts would cripple the federal government and run the government into more debt than Obama's. He had the gall to run an ad claiming that Obama helped bring down his good immigration bill back in 2006 - even though Obama voted for it, and McCain folded like a cheap paper suit on the issue after running into a wall of conservative opposition. And let's not forget that in 2005, he caved on a bill to stop torture.

Is that a "maverick"? I don't think so. That's a man who tacks with the wind. Even his vaunted McCain-Feingold bill in 2002 was hardly a bolt from the blue; Bush had said back in 2000 that he would support campaign finance reform as long as it equally targeted traditional Democratic and Republican sources of money.

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To be quite honest, I don't know how many times I smiled when I heard McCain was going at it with fellow Republicans about this or about that.


Frankly, I'm starting to wonder if you aren't merely an idiot - I think you're lying about being this staunch liberal you claim to be. Only an idiot or a closet conservative would overlook the fact that McCain, by and large, has sided with Bush on almost everything (the sole exception being the environment and Global Warming, but after his one attempt at a bill with Joe Lieberman, he gave up the fight on that one).

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And Palin? Pssh. What can I say? Intelligent, beautiful, absolutely hilarious, and best of all: she hasn't been accused of plagiarism!


No, she's been accused of being a lying, manipulative governor with ties to christian fundamentalism and a wholly undeserved persona as a "maverick". Of course, the funny thing is is that those accusations are true - something you'd notice if you stopped acting like a moronic undecided personality voter and did some actual research.

Tell me, then, for such an "intelligent" governor, why is it that the McCain campaign has been so afraid of the media questioning her that they've screened nearly every rally she's held to keep out the press (for which she's generally done nothing but speak scripted lines, even noticeably false ones like her claim on the Bridge to Nowhere), and only allowed two interviews - one of which was with that flattering *** Sean Hannity?


QUOTE
Obama, I am sorry. But the thought of your Oval Office decision making bearing any type of resemblance to the decisions you've made concerning a running mate - is simply too much for this Democrat to take.

Tally one up for McCain.



And it sickens me every day that the presidential election will come down to people like you - idiots who can't see past personality and appearances, who voted in Bush in 2000 because he seemed like such a nice, folksy, charming conservative governor, not like that "boring" Al Gore with his silly ideas about the environment and such. Guess how well that worked out?

Look, if you aren't a liberal, feel free to say so. It's not like we have a culture of repression going on here; if anything, we have much more conservative and libertarian voices in this forum than more liberal voices.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." -Sir Charles Napier

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#18    HKCavalier

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:16 AM

IrishAidan on Sep 18 2008, 11:53 PM, said:

I don't for a minute believe the Republican Party, generally, is concerned with getting rid of abortion. I don't believe Biden gives a damn about Women's Issues either.

This is an entirely self-defeating way of thinking of the "all politicians are liars" variety.  Then who cares?  Why vote for either of 'em?  Spite?  "Urgh, I hate that guy's looks!  I'm votin' for the other guy!"  Is the Presidential election really that trivial to you?  You're not making sense, Kimosabe.

Edited by HKCavalier, 19 September 2008 - 07:17 AM.


#19    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:21 AM

HKCavalier on Sep 19 2008, 01:16 AM, said:

This is an entirely self-defeating way of thinking of the "all politicians are liars" variety.  Then who cares?  Why vote for either of 'em?  Spite?  "Urgh, I hate that guy's looks!  I'm votin' for the other guy!"  Is the Presidential election really that trivial to you?  You're not making sense, Kimosabe.


Like I said, he's either an idiot whose voting for trivial, bull personality reasons, or he's being dishonest about his political positions. Possibly both- it's happened before.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." -Sir Charles Napier

"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted."  — D.H. Lawrence

#20    IrishAidan07

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:26 AM

Quote

This alone means that you've lost any respect I ever had for you. You claim that you are a staunch liberal, with clear convictions - yet you would be willing to vote for the opposition party that stands for the complete opposite of everything you believe in, just believe you think Biden is a dishonest politician? Come on - even assuming Obama is a mediocrity and Biden a scandal-plagued VP, at the end of the day Democratic legislation will get passed if the Democrats have a majority in Congress (as it seems like they will be getting). That alone is reason to vote for the Democratic ticket, particularly since we've had corrupt (Grant), incompetent (Harding), douchebag (Wilson), and liar (Johnson) presidents before, yet the Republic has survived.

Yet you would actively vote for the opposition? Frankly, I think you are either lying, or under a "Bush 2000" -style delusion. Lots of people in the moderate Democrat camps convinced themselves that he wouldn't be so bad, either - they didn't bother to look up his history as governor, or the advisors he relied upon.


First of all, I have always liked John McCain. Secondly, what is that little bit Obama says, "I'm not running for president of blue America, or red America, but the United States of America!" Sorry if I choose to put country above party.  

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So what? Even if he is a dishonest prick who occasionally plagiarizes, that doesn't mean he can't be a good president, or at least a moderate one. The Bush Administration alone makes Biden look like Jesus.


Biden would be better than Bush, sure. But I think McCain and Palin would be better than both. I am allowed to have opinions, right?

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Perhaps because Obama, unlike McCain, didn't want a running mate who was supposed to turn into a potted plant after November 5. From what I've read in the New York Times and the like, Obama placed value on a running mate who could "step in" were he to run into problems, and Biden is the man for that type of thing. He's actually a VP for a sitting president, not a candidate for President.


And no other pick could give Obama the "step-in" bit? He had to pick someone like Biden? BS.

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No, you're just an idiot.


Ditto.

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The second reason was that Biden was supposed to be aggressive where Obama couldn't be - a throwback to a more bare-knuckles Irish-style of doing politics. That was probably over-hyped, but he has been clever in debates before (one of Obama's weak areas, in my opinions).

In any case, what's wrong with the first reason, even if that's the only one? Obama is clearly lacking in experience with foreign affairs, and Biden, at the very least, can give him loads of advice and talk intelligently with Obama's advisors in that area. Can you imagine Palin sitting in on a meeting with the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Director of Central Intelligence, and National Defense Advisor and being able to ask intelligent questions as well as really helping to shape foreign policy proposals?


McCain had foreign policy experience. Obama does not. Palin does not. Biden does. Biden is an idiot. McCain, Obama, and Palin are not, in my opinion.

QUOTE
Great. That's just what we need - another voter deciding to vote for entirely trivial bull reasons. Have a cookie.


Humor. See, I suspect most of my readers will recognize that I'm not seriously thinking of voting for McCain because I dislike Biden's smile.

QUOTE
We've had several presidents who also happened to be "American heroes". Among their hallowed ranks were Andrew Jackson, Benjamin Harrison, Ulysses S. Grant, and John F. Kennedy. American heroes, yes (more so than McCain, whose sole claim to heroism is that he spent 5 years in a Vietnamese POW camp. Join the crowd - my step grand-father did the same, spending five years in a Nazi German POW camp after being captured at Dunkirk in 1940), but terrible presidents, by and large.


O.K. And while Biden was plagiarizing at Syracuse Law, McCain was being tortured. What do you think is more commendable?

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Frankly, I'm starting to wonder if you aren't merely an idiot - I think you're lying about being this staunch liberal you claim to be. Only an idiot or a closet conservative would overlook the fact that McCain, by and large, has sided with Bush on almost everything (the sole exception being the environment and Global Warming, but after his one attempt at a bill with Joe Lieberman, he gave up the fight on that one).


Logical fallacy, but yeah, it must be one of those.

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No, she's been accused of being a lying, manipulative governor with ties to christian fundamentalism and a wholly undeserved persona as a "maverick". Of course, the funny thing is is that those accusations are true - something you'd notice if you stopped acting like a moronic undecided personality voter and did some actual research.


If I accused you of wearing your grandma's underwear, does that make it true?

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Tell me, then, for such an "intelligent" governor, why is it that the McCain campaign has been so afraid of the media questioning her that they've screened nearly every rally she's held to keep out the press (for which she's generally done nothing but speak scripted lines, even noticeably false ones like her claim on the Bridge to Nowhere), and only allowed two interviews - one of which was with that flattering *** Sean Hannity?


And the other one was with who? On what network?

Charlie? Hmm. It escapes me. NB... Arg. Escapes me.

QUOTE
And it sickens me every day that the presidential election will come down to people like you - idiots who can't see past personality and appearances, who voted in Bush in 2000 because he seemed like such a nice, folksy, charming conservative governor, not like that "boring" Al Gore with his silly ideas about the environment and such. Guess how well that worked out?

Look, if you aren't a liberal, feel free to say so. It's not like we have a culture of repression going on here; if anything, we have much more conservative and libertarian voices in this forum than more liberal voices.


Um, I wasn't old enough to vote in 2000. But I was for Gore.

And I am a liberal. All you have to do is go read some more posts and possess just a tad of common sense.

Also, it's pretty sad you couldn't address this Op-Ed without resorting to, "You're an idiot!"

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 07:33 AM.

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#21    IrishAidan07

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:29 AM

Quote

This is an entirely self-defeating way of thinking of the "all politicians are liars" variety. Then who cares? Why vote for either of 'em? Spite? "Urgh, I hate that guy's looks! I'm votin' for the other guy!" Is the Presidential election really that trivial to you? You're not making sense, Kimosabe.


Anyone who puts complete faith in anything any politician says is an idiot.

Quote

Like I said, he's either an idiot whose voting for trivial, bull personality reasons, or he's being dishonest about his political positions. Possibly both- it's happened before.


Sure love those logical fallacies, 'eh?



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#22    IrishAidan07

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:42 AM

Well, if you folks would like, when I get on my Mac tomorrow, I'll dig up an Op-Ed I wrote about Bush a few months back. I'm sure that will ebb any and all insinuations that I am a conservative in sheep's clothing. The one about Bush, too, is not of the comedic variety.



Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 07:42 AM.

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:44 AM

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 12:29 AM, said:

Anyone who puts complete faith in anything any politician says is an idiot.

Hey, don't be childish.  There's a middle ground between calling 'em all liars and bestowing "complete faith" on them.  You're not making your case sound any less trivial.


#24    IrishAidan07

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:47 AM

HKCavalier on Sep 19 2008, 03:44 AM, said:

Hey, don't be childish.  There's a middle ground between calling 'em all liars and bestowing "complete faith" on them.  You're not making your case sound any less trivial.



Both parties lie their arses off. Occasionally, you'll get a politician who is honest. I don't feel Biden is an honest person. You can dance around the plagiarism charges all you want, but the fact is he was accused of it in college. Vindicated of it? Perhaps. Some say different though. But the very fact he was accused again, in this case he undeniably did it, coupled with the original accusation is far too much coincidence for me. Most people go through a lifetime without ever having been accused. This jerk off was accused twice!

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 07:49 AM.

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#25    Leonardo

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:53 AM

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 06:24 AM, said:

Secondly, I'm not voting for McCain because Biden supported the war. I'm voting for McCain (possible) because Biden doesn't have the courage of his convictions.


I'm keeping my nose out of the election discussion in general, but I would like to ask a question about this philosophy of choice.

Which is preferable, someone who can admit to their mistake and change their mind, or someone who sticks to their original conviction even when they know in their heart it is wrong?

Just wondering...


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#26    IrishAidan07

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:56 AM

Leonardo on Sep 19 2008, 03:53 AM, said:

I'm keeping my nose out of the election discussion in general, but I would like to ask a question about this philosophy of choice.

Which is preferable, someone who can admit to their mistake and change their mind, or someone who sticks to their original conviction even when they know in their heart it is wrong?

Just wondering...


If you believe Biden changed his mind because he thought it was the right thing to do - then O.K.

I don't subscribe to that belief.

Then, too, you make an inference that McCain thinks his original conviction - supporting the war - is wrong.

I don't subscribe to that belief either.

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 08:00 AM.

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 07:58 AM

Leonardo on Sep 19 2008, 07:53 AM, said:

I'm keeping my nose out of the election discussion in general, but I would like to ask a question about this philosophy of choice.

Which is preferable, someone who can admit to their mistake and change their mind, or someone who sticks to their original conviction even when they know in their heart it is wrong?

Just wondering...

There are two aspects. On one hand you have someone who is willing to admit they're wrong and improve their position. On the other hand, when you vote for someone, you don't want them changing positions on you.


#28    IrishAidan07

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 08:10 AM

Look, like I told bass in a PM - When all is said and done, I'll probably end up voting for Obama. This editorial was a way for me to express my outrage over Obama picking Biden.

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 08:11 AM.

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#29    Leonardo

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 08:15 AM

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 08:56 AM, said:

If you believe Biden changed his mind because he thought it was the right thing to do - then O.K.

I don't subscribe to that belief.

Then, too, you make an inference that McCain thinks his original conviction - supporting the war - is wrong.

I don't subscribe to that belief either.


I wasn't implying anything about McCain. You stated you thought Biden had no courage of conviction, but would it be 'courage of conviction' if he stuck to his original position even when he found it to be wrong?

My post was entirely about Biden and the choices he had which you slated him for.

You believe McCain is telling the truth, but you don't believe Biden is? That seems to be the whole basis for your decision.

Quote

There are two aspects. On one hand you have someone who is willing to admit they're wrong and improve their position. On the other hand, when you vote for someone, you don't want them changing positions on you.


Wouldn't the change in position depend very much on your position about the issue to begin with? I would not be afraid to vote for someone who was capable of changing their mind - so long as they felt justified (and put that justification out there to be examined) in doing so. I also would not have to agree with every position a nominee stood for.

Edited by Leonardo, 19 September 2008 - 08:18 AM.

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#30    IrishAidan07

IrishAidan07

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 08:17 AM

Leonardo on Sep 19 2008, 04:15 AM, said:

I wasn't implying anything about McCain. You stated you thought Biden had no courage of conviction, but would it be 'courage of conviction' if he stuck to his original position even when he found it to be wrong?

My post was entirely about Biden and the choices he had which you slated him for.

You believe McCain is telling the truth, but you don't believe Biden is? That seems to be the whole basis for your decision.



I have no reason to believe McCain is not telling the truth. I have a reason (plagiarism) to believe Biden is not. He was accused of it twice! Like I said, most people go through an entire lifetime without ever having been accused - yet he was accused twice!!!! In my profession, you would think plagiarism is a big thing. Well, it is. And most writers despise it and those who commit it. I can accept him being vindicated of the plagiarism in college, even though some disagree he was actually vindicated. But then he does it again? No, no. Too much coincidence for me.

He's a charlatan, in my opinion.



Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 08:21 AM.

"There is not a Liberal America, a Conservative America, a Red America or Blue America, there is the United States of America." ~ Barack Obama

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