82 replies to this topic

[Guardsman Bass]

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 01:26 AM, said:

First of all, I have always liked John McCain. Secondly, what is that little bit Obama says, "I'm not running for president of blue America, or red America, but the United States of America!" Sorry if I choose to put country above party.

Nice little red herring there - the point I made was that you are claiming to be liberal, and Obama is the best chance - yet you are throwing that away for entirely bullshi-t reasons.

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Biden would be better than Bush, sure. But I think McCain and Palin would be better than both. I am allowed to have opinions, right?

And I'm allowed to rip you a new one for them. This is a forum, after all.

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And no other pick could give Obama the "step-in" bit? He had to pick someone like Biden? BS.

Biden had the other advantages I mentioned. Richardson might have been a better pick, but he's done terrible under media scrutiny, and he's a little too nice in public.

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Ditto.

I provided reasons for why I called you that. Do you have any reason in particular, or are you merely spreading the hate?

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McCain had foreign policy experience. Obama does not. Palin does not. Biden does. Biden is an idiot. McCain, Obama, and Palin are not, in my opinion.

I hadn't realized "being shot down over Hanoi" counted as foreign policy experience. You're telling me that Biden, who has been sitting on the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee for over two decades, has less experience than McCain, who was elected to the Senate about two decades ago?

Humor. See, I suspect most of my readers will recognize that I'm not seriously thinking of voting for McCain because I dislike Biden's smile.

Yet you make a deal over not voting for Biden because he turns you off in a way you don't understand. Unless the entire column is a subtle joke, then the fact that you were being half-joking about the smile doesn't change the greater part of my criticism.

O.K. And while Biden was plagiarizing at Syracuse Law, McCain was being tortured. What do you think is more commendable?

While withstanding torture is arguably a character-building experience, it's not a qualification for the Presidency (many people have faced it). Biden, at least, was learning something about politics.

Besides, it's not as if Biden's lived a Charmed Life. McCain may have spent five years in Hanoi, but Biden lost his wife and daughter right after winning his Senate seat in 1972. You know, seven years before McCain cheated on his first wife and married money.

Logical fallacy, but yeah, it must be one of those.

Why don't you tell me, then, what a person who is planning to vote for someone representing the opposite of his supposedly held beliefs is? Not an idiot, or dishonest? I guess you could say "foolish", but that tends to fall into the "idiotic" category.

If I accused you of wearing your grandma's underwear, does that make it true?

Do you ever plan to actually answer the point, which was that if you actually spent some time doing research on Palin as opposed to basking in the glow of such an "intelligent, beautiful, funny" governor, you would see her for the lying, deceitful governor she actually was and is? Frankly, almost her entire image is bull, from the Bridge to Nowhere she supposedly opposed (only she didn't, and kept the money when it was cancelled), to the investigation that she's backtracked completely on even though she called for it to be done in the first place.

And the other one was with who? On what network?

Charlie? Hmm. It escapes me. NB... Arg. Escapes me.

Wow, she's had a total of one interview that wasn't complete pandering bull like Sean Hannity's tend to be when it's a conservative celebrity. Obama's done, what, 20? And that's not including the debates.

Um, I wasn't old enough to vote in 2000. But I was for Gore.

Me neither, but that doesn't answer my point. Unless you were joking about voting against Biden because he rubs you the wrong way, and about all that "looks" crap, then you are that kind of voter.

And I am a liberal. All you have to do is go read some more posts and possess just a tad of common sense.

It's good to know that you weren't being dishonest, then - merely stupid.

Like I mentioned, at the very least, Obama amounts to one thing - not a default veto stamp on important Democratic legislation. And I severely doubt he'll be just that; I haven't noticed any personality traits akin to Warren Harding in his personality.

Also, it's pretty sad you couldn't address this Op-Ed without resorting to, "You're an idiot!"

I generally find that being honest if a bit rude can help get the point better than playing to the "Miss Manners" bull. Would it have really made a difference had I taken the time to type out some long, drawn out criticism in addition to my points that would have amount to a windbag version of "you're an idiot"?

[Leonardo]

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 09:17 AM, said:

I have no reason to believe McCain is not telling the truth. I have a reason (plagiarism) to believe Biden is not. He was accused of it twice! Like I said, most people go through an entire lifetime without ever having been accused - yet he was accused twice!!!! In my profession, you would think plagiarism is a big thing with me, no?

I agree, plagiarism is dishonest in the sense of portraying someone else's work as your own. Is it dishonesty as you are portraying it though?

You are stating that, because Biden allegedly plagiarised, he must also be lacking conviction of his own beliefs. How do the two have any bearing on one another (apart from trying to set a general trend of dishonesty, which you have failed to do)?

[IrishAidan07]

Guardsman Bass on Sep 19 2008, 04:19 AM, said:

Nice little red herring there - the point I made was that you are claiming to be liberal, and Obama is the best chance - yet you are throwing that away for entirely bullshi-t reasons.

Liking McCain is not a BS reason.

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And I'm allowed to rip you a new one for them. This is a forum, after all.

Yeah, you do.

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Biden had the other advantages I mentioned. Richardson might have been a better pick, but he's done terrible under media scrutiny, and he's a little too nice in public.

No extraordinary advantage. Certainly nothing that Chris Dodd doesn't have.

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I provided reasons for why I called you that. Do you have any reason in particular, or are you merely spreading the hate?

Disagreement seemed to be the only reason. Not a terribly strong one, in my view.

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I hadn't realized "being shot down over Hanoi" counted as foreign policy experience. You're telling me that Biden, who has been sitting on the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee for over two decades, has less experience than McCain, who was elected to the Senate about two decades ago?

Re-read what I said.

Yet you make a deal over not voting for Biden because he turns you off in a way you don't understand. Unless the entire column is a subtle joke, then the fact that you were being half-joking about the smile doesn't change the greater part of my criticism.

The entire thing was written in a comedic manner. Wow! But the overall point of it was not a joke.

Biden, at least, was learning something about politics.

LOL. That he was.

Besides, it's not as if Biden's lived a Charmed Life. McCain may have spent five years in Hanoi, but Biden lost his wife and daughter right after winning his Senate seat in 1972. You know, seven years before McCain cheated on his first wife and married money.

And that is terrible. But that doesn't qualify him for the Oval Office either.

Why don't you tell me, then, what a person who is planning to vote for someone representing the opposite of his supposedly held beliefs is? Not an idiot, or dishonest? I guess you could say "foolish", but that tends to fall into the "idiotic" category.

I am not naive. I don't think there is only one way - the liberal way - to get things done that need to be done. I can walk to the corner, but I can do so several different ways.

Do you ever plan to actually answer the point, which was that if you actually spent some time doing research on Palin as opposed to basking in the glow of such an "intelligent, beautiful, funny" governor, you would see her for the lying, deceitful governor she actually was and is? Frankly, almost her entire image is bull, from the Bridge to Nowhere she supposedly opposed (only she didn't, and kept the money when it was cancelled), to the investigation that she's backtracked completely on even though she called for it to be done in the first place.

You made the assertion - back it up.

Wow, she's had a total of one interview that wasn't complete pandering bull like Sean Hannity's tend to be when it's a conservative celebrity. Obama's done, what, 20? And that's not including the debates.

Obama has been running longer than Palin, for one. Secondly, Palin will have to answer the tough ones when she debates Biden.

Me neither, but that doesn't answer my point. Unless you were joking about voting against Biden because he rubs you the wrong way, and about all that "looks" crap, then you are that kind of voter.

If I vote against him, it will be because of the main points I mentioned. Not his looks, for Christ sakes.

It's good to know that you weren't being dishonest, then - merely stupid.

No. I think Biden would be a disastrous president. I am thinking of my country. Is that stupid?

I generally find that being honest if a bit rude can help get the point better than playing to the "Miss Manners" bull. Would it have really made a difference had I taken the time to type out some long, drawn out criticism in addition to my points that would have amount to a windbag version of "you're an idiot"?

I think it's childish. But see above.

[IrishAidan07]

Leonardo on Sep 19 2008, 04:23 AM, said:

I agree, plagiarism is dishonest in the sense of portraying someone else's work as your own. Is it dishonesty as you are portraying it though?

You are stating that, because Biden allegedly plagiarised, he must also be lacking conviction of his own beliefs. How do the two have any bearing on one another (apart from trying to set a general trend of dishonesty, which you have failed to do)?

It's dishonest - period. And he didn't allegedly plagiarize - he flat out did plagiarize Neil Kinnock. And I'm not out to prove that Biden is dishonest. It's simply my opinion. I mean, I have two charges of dishonesty against Biden in my corner. What do you have? Seemingly nothing more than a penchant for arguing, which is a trait we share.

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 08:33 AM.

[Leonardo]

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 09:33 AM, said:

It's dishonest - period. And he didn't allegedly plagiarize - he flat out did plagiarize Neil Kinnock. And I'm not out to prove that Biden is dishonest. It's simply my opinion. I mean, I have two charges of dishonesty against Biden in my corner. What do you have? Seemingly nothing more than a penchant for arguing, which is a trait we share.

I could reiterate the points Startraveler, Guardsman et al, have made vis-a-vis McCain (in reply, not because I dislike any candidate), but it hardly seems worthwhile as you appear to have a pro-McCain filter in your brain.

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No. I think Biden would be a disastrous president. I am thinking of my country. Is that stupid?

Which VP is more likely to have to be sworn in as President during the next term, do you think? Which VP is most qualified to be a President (if necessary) who can lead the country through the tough times it is currently experiencing? Which VP is likely to have the most credibility internationally?

[Mr Honeybadger]

I always enjoy reading your opinions IrishAidan.  Not because I necessarily agree with you. But I appreciate the fact that even though you are a fairly liberal democrat, you don't alway's tow the company line like many others do.  People on both sides of the isle will defend the actions of their parties members no matter how low down or crooked they are.  I always give a thumbs up to those who don't always have blinders on and follow their part like sheep.

[Startraveler]

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It's dishonest - period. And he didn't allegedly plagiarize - he flat out did plagiarize Neil Kinnock. And I'm not out to prove that Biden is dishonest. It's simply my opinion. I mean, I have two charges of dishonesty against Biden in my corner. What do you have? Seemingly nothing more than a penchant for arguing, which is a trait we share.

Well, if you're going to rely on a charge that was dropped against Biden, you'll have to incorporate the Keating 5 scandal into your evaluation of McCain. It's a bit less trivial than forgetting to attribute an anecdote in a speech.

And don't forget the complete collapse of the myth of McCain's "honor" during the current campaign season.

[IrishAidan07]

Leonardo on Sep 19 2008, 04:43 AM, said:

I could reiterate the points Startraveler, Guardsman et al, have made vis-a-vis McCain (in reply, not because I dislike any candidate), but it hardly seems worthwhile as you appear to have a pro-McCain filter in your brain.

Me liking McCain has nothing to do with Biden's dishonesty. I mean, it's absolutely silly to ask me to prove Biden is dishonest. I'm not out to prove anything, considering it is an Opinionated-Editorial. Secondly, as I said, I have two charges of dishonesty levied at Biden on my side. Thirdly, I wonder if you ask all the liberals to prove their charges against Bush, such calling him a liar?

Of course not. This is politics - rarely can things be proven.

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Which VP is more likely to have to be sworn in as President during the next term, do you think? Which VP is most qualified to be a President (if necessary) who can lead the country through the tough times it is currently experiencing? Which VP is likely to have the most credibility internationally?

I don't know. McCain is older, so one would think Palin has the best chance of being sworn in. Then again, Obama is black and there are a lot of ignorant people in this country. To be honest, I say it is even. As for the rest, pure conjecture.

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 04:45 PM.

[IrishAidan07]

Startraveler on Sep 19 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

Well, if you're going to rely on a charge that was dropped against Biden, you'll have to incorporate the Keating 5 scandal into your evaluation of McCain. It's a bit less trivial than forgetting to attribute an anecdote in a speech.

And don't forget the complete collapse of the myth of McCain's "honor" during the current campaign season.

Here Is A Video of McCain Explaining His Role

Do I believe McCain? No.

Do I believe the story as you present it? No.

I figure the truth is somewhere in the middle.

And I don't believe Biden forgot to attribute anything. I could have believed that HS had he not been accused in college.

As for McCain's campaign right now? Politics.

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 04:44 PM.

[HKCavalier]

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

Me liking McCain has nothing to do with Biden's dishonesty. I mean, it's absolutely silly to ask me to prove Biden is dishonest. I'm not out to prove anything, considering it is an Opinionated-Editorial. Secondly, as I said, I have two charges of dishonesty levied at Biden on my side. Thirdly, I wonder if you ask all the liberals to prove their charges against Bush, such calling him a liar?

IrishAidan, you present a number of troubling issues.  Maybe the editor of the paper you work at (sic) should tell you what "op-ed" means (hint: opinionated-editorial is redundant).  And for a guy who fancies himself an op-ed writer you seem little concerned with displaying your critical thinking ability.  You say you've always liked McCain and expect that to explain anything to us?

There are plenty of opportunistic policy changes from McCain even in the last week without ever getting into his infamous abouts face from 2000 to 2004 to the present.  There are his voluble lies that "Obama wants to raise your taxes" and "Obama wants to teach comprehensive sex ed to kindergartners."  There are his lies about which football team's defensive line-up he gave his captors as a POW (hint: depends on what city he's campaigning in).  But in terms of plagiarism, boy howdy, there's his lifting an anecdote from the life of Solzhenitsyn into his own story (a story that has evolved with his political ambitions from a simple story of a guard's kindness to a guard's shared Christian faith)!  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4bTvhXMO7I

It's one thing to use another man's phrasing of an idea, it's quite another to incorporate the events of another man's life into your own!  Bad enough he should pimp out his trauma to gain votes, but to lie about it???

It would be one thing if you gave us a similar laundry list of Biden's failings, but all you got is this one dubious act of plagiarism as the guarantor of all your righteous indignation.  Oh, and you don't like his smile.  It's sounding more and more likely that this paper you work at (sic) is your high school paper.

[IrishAidan07]

HKCavalier on Sep 19 2008, 01:53 PM, said:

IrishAidan, you present a number of troubling issues.  Maybe the editor of the paper you work at (sic) should tell you what "op-ed" means (hint: opinionated-editorial is redundant).  And for a guy who fancies himself an op-ed writer you seem little concerned with displaying your critical thinking ability.  You say you've always liked McCain and expect that to explain anything to us?

Many people call it an Opinionated-Editorial, others call it an Opinion-Editorial. It's slang for the trade. Opinionated is what me and a few other guys there call it. I wouldn't expect you to understand that, given your inability to comprehend anything else. Like, say, what the editorial was about. It wasn't about why I like or dislike McCain or Obama, but why I despise Joe Biden. I gave ample reasons for this.

When you use silly things against me to prove some point you opine is an example of your towering intellect, that just displays how ridiculous and insignificant you and your "points" actually are. Now, do you have anything better for me?

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There are plenty of opportunistic policy changes from McCain even in the last week without ever getting into his infamous abouts face from 2000 to 2004 to the present.  There are his voluble lies that "Obama wants to raise your taxes" and "Obama wants to teach comprehensive sex ed to kindergartners."  There are his lies about which football team's defensive line-up he gave his captors as a POW (hint: depends on what city he's campaigning in).  But in terms of plagiarism, boy howdy, there's his lifting an anecdote from the life of Solzhenitsyn into his own story (a story that has evolved with his political ambitions from a simple story of a guard's kindness to a guard's shared Christian faith)!

It's all politics!!! Is it any different than what is happening to Palin?

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It's one thing to use another man's phrasing of an idea, it's quite another to incorporate the events of another man's life into your own!  Bad enough he should pimp out his trauma to gain votes, but to lie about it???

What the hell is he lying about?

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It would be one thing if you gave us a similar laundry list of Biden's failings, but all you got is this one dubious act of plagiarism as the guarantor of all your righteous indignation.  Oh, and you don't like his smile.  It's sounding more and more likely that this paper you work at (sic) is your high school paper.

One dubious act? How many times did I explain why the original accusation was imperative? Secondly, if I were you I wouldn't start pointing out grammatical errors in the paragraph above the editorial - you make quite enough. This forum is not the paper I work FOR, a college essay, a poem, short story, or anything else I much care about. Therefore, I see no point in taking great care in writing a short explanation for the Op-Ed. It was late - I was tired. Now, can you explain to me why I am not entitled to an opinion concerning Biden? Or will you admit that you are unable to be objective about this?

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 06:56 PM.

[Leonardo]

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 07:48 PM, said:

Now, can you explain to me why I am not entitled to an opinion concerning Biden? Or will you admit that you are unable to be objective about this?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, just as everyone is entitled to dispute the opinion of another.

You have suggested you would not vote for Obama/Biden because you dislike Biden. Did you then research McCain/Palin to decide if they were worth voting for, or would you simply decide to vote for them as a protest against Biden?

It seems to me that a vote should be for positive effect, not negative.

[HKCavalier]

IrishAidan on Sep 19 2008, 11:48 AM, said:

Many people call it an Opinionated-Editorial, others call it an Opinion-Editorial. It's slang for the trade. Opinionated is what me and a few other guys there call it.

Well, sorry, Irish, but many people are misinformed--or don't bother to get informed in the first place.  "Op-ed" is a term used for an editorial written by someone other than an editor of the periodical it appears in (otherwise, it would just be an editorial).  Such guest editorials traditionally appeared OPposite the EDitorial page in a newspaper, hence the term "op-ed."  

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I wouldn't expect you to understand that, given your inability to comprehend anything else.

What the heck?  This sounds very personal.  You confusing me with someone else?

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Like, say, what the editorial was about. It wasn't about why I like or dislike McCain or Obama, but why I despise Joe Biden. I gave ample reasons for this.

  
As far as your editorial: I wasn't talking about your editorial, I was talking about your justification of your editorial in this thread.  I wouldn't call your "reasons" exactly "ample" in any case:  1.) He was accused of plagiarism twice 2.) He (like half the people in this country--are they all hypocrites?) changed his opinion on the Iraq war. 3.) You don't like his smile.  That is it.  Your argument, based on these three dubious criticisms, is far from compelling.  You're free to have your opinion, but that doesn't mean that you've demonstrated it to be a well-informed or well-thought out opinion.

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When you use silly things against me to prove some point you opine is an example of your towering intellect, that just displays how ridiculous and insignificant you and your "points" actually are. Now, do you have anything better for me?

Not so much my towering intellect, but your misuse of the language, misunderstanding of journalistic convention, and your just plain missing critical thinking skills.  You call yourself a professional, I'm gonna hold you to a professional standard.  Perhaps your "the paper I work at" was an attempt at folksy colloquialism, but nothing else in your writing style suggests that you're that kind of stylist.  I'm sorry, the "I work at" thing is a pet-peeve of mine, it suggests to me that you don't care.  I see you do.  I grant that my argument would have been stronger if I hadn't gotten pedantic.  

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It's all politics!!! Is it any different than what is happening to Palin?

More cynicism.  And I was talking about McCain.  In talking about McCain's lies.  I mentioned Obama only as the butt of McCain's dishonest and sleazy ad campaign.  Neither Obama nor Biden, to my knowledge, have ever lied about Palin's policy proposals, nor implied that she was a moral degenerate.  Obama has barely spoken of her at all, as his real opponent is John McCain.  I don't blame McCain for the absurd assertions that Obama is a secret Muslim; please, don't blame Obama for whatever tabloid crap has been said about Palin.  It's important to me that the actual candidates not make baseless smear attacks on their opponents.

What the hell is he lying about?

Not just lying, plagiarizing.  Up until 1999 McCain told a story from his POW days about the kindness of a guard who loosened his bindings and let him sit out in the sun longer than was officially allowed.  But in 1999 and onward McCain embellished the story to include the guard drawing the sign of the cross in the dirt to share a moment of improbable Christian fellowship with McCain.  A moving story.  But the story is from Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago.  You can google it to get more information.

One dubious act? How many times did I explain why the original accusation was imperative? Secondly, if I were you I wouldn't start pointing out grammatical errors in the paragraph above the editorial - you make quite enough. This forum is not the paper I work FOR, a college essay, a poem, short story, or anything else I much care about. Therefore, I see no point in taking great care in writing a short explanation for the Op-Ed. It was late - I was tired.  Now, can you explain to me why I am not entitled to an opinion concerning Biden? Or will you admit that you are unable to be objective about this?

At what point did I suggest that you were not entitled to an opinion on Biden?  Cut the melodrama.  My problem with regard to your opinion about Biden is that it lacks credible basis.  And you criticize him for offenses which, if he's perpetrated them, he arguably shares with your preferred candidate, McCain.  So various folks have pressed you for more evidence, argument, information and all you do is repeat the same things over and over, ratcheting up your moral indignation with each post?

Hey, look: the more I talk to you, the less I understand you.  That's kinda the opposite of what a conversation should be doing, y'know?  So, maybe we should call it a day.  I know you've been getting a ton of flak from several folks on this one and maybe you're letting it get to you.  It happens.

Edited by HKCavalier, 19 September 2008 - 09:23 PM.

[Harte]

I've always kind of like Biden myself.

Also, like Startraveler said, it's unusual to make your choice based on the second name on the ticket.

Of course, if you ask me (yeah, I know nobody did,) there's not much else to go by on the Dem's ticket this year so I supposed it's to be expected.

God knows you can't go by any of the rhetoric either ticket is slathering all over the voters they pander to.

Harte

[IrishAidan07]

HKCavalier on Sep 19 2008, 04:47 PM, said:

Well, sorry, Irish, but many people are misinformed--or don't bother to get informed in the first place.  "Op-ed" is a term used for an editorial written by someone other than an editor of the periodical it appears in (otherwise, it would just be an editorial).  Such guest editorials traditionally appeared OPposite the EDitorial page in a newspaper, hence the term "op-ed."

Well, it is generally referred to as an Opinion-Editorial. At my work, many of us will ask the other, "Have you written your Opinionated yet?" It's just slang. A place such as this, it's unnecessary to get into journalism specifics.

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As far as your editorial: I wasn't talking about your editorial, I was talking about your justification of your editorial in this thread.  I wouldn't call your "reasons" exactly "ample" in any case:  1.) He was accused of plagiarism twice 2.) He (like half the people in this country--are they all hypocrites?) changed his opinion on the Iraq war. 3.) You don't like his smile.  That is it.  Your argument, based on these three dubious criticisms, is far from compelling.  You're free to have your opinion, but that doesn't mean that you've demonstrated it to be a well-informed or well-thought out opinion.

First of all, any intelligent, critical thinking adult should realize the criticism of his smile was merely a pun, a joke, a touch of jest. It was in no way meant to be taken literal. Secondly, because I have been with the same paper for roughly a year, the subscribers are well aware of my sense of humor. I do it in every article I write. Secondly, I believe being accused of plagiarism once and vindicated is perhaps O.K. However, when the details of the original accusation and subsequent "vindication" are in question, then the individual does it again as a United States Senator, something, my friend, is wrong. To me, it is far too much coincidence. Lastly, he had some strong words for Obama, too, and has since changed that tune.

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Not so much my towering intellect, but your misuse of the language, misunderstanding of journalistic convention, and your just plain missing critical thinking skills.  You call yourself a professional, I'm gonna hold you to a professional standard.  Perhaps your "the paper I work at" was an attempt at folksy colloquialism, but nothing else in your writing style suggests that you're that kind of stylist.  I'm sorry, the "I work at" thing is a pet-peeve of mine, it suggests to me that you don't care.  I see you do.  I grant that my argument would have been stronger if I hadn't gotten pedantic.  

Misuse of language because I was tired; take a look at what time it was posted. Then go through my other posts (and the editorial) and see what you come up with. Very few if any. In regards to the journalistic misunderstanding, as I said above, most people understand Op-Ed as meaning Opinion-Editorial. You'll notice, too, that in many newspapers, the Op-Eds are labeled "Opinion." I felt no need to get into specifics. And no, my writing style, as you see, takes on more of a comedic form. Although, I will propose, as you'll see below, an intellectual style overture.

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More cynicism.  And I was talking about McCain.  In talking about McCain's lies I mentioned Obama only as the butt of McCain's dishonest and sleazy ad campaign.  Neither Obama nor Biden, to my knowledge, have ever lied about Palin's policy proposals, nor implied that she was a moral degenerate.  Obama has barely spoken of her at all, as his real opponent is John McCain.  I don't blame McCain for the absurd assertions that Obama is a secret Muslim; please, don't blame Obama for whatever tabloid crap has been said about Palin.  It's important to me that the actual candidates not make baseless smear attacks on their opponents.

What has McCain said about Obama?

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At what point did I suggest that you were not entitled to an opinion on Biden?  Cut the melodrama.  My problem with regard to your opinion about Biden is that it lacks credible basis.  And you criticize him for offenses which, if he's perpetrated them, he arguably shares with your preferred candidate, McCain.  So various folks have pressed you for more evidence, argument, information and all you do is repeat the same things over and over, ratcheting up your moral indignation with each post?

He plagarized Neil Kinnock - undeniably. He was accused of plagiarizing in college. To me, that is more than a credible basis to regard him as a dishonest schmuck. Is that a statement of fact? Of course not. But it is, after all, an opinion - which is why I keep repeating myself. And until that enters your head to be contemplated, I will continue repeating myself.

Hey, look: the more I talk to you, the less I understand you.  That's kinda the opposite of what a conversation should be doing, y'know?  So, maybe we should call it a day.  I know you've been getting a ton of flak from several folks on this one and maybe you're letting it get to you.  It happens.

Hk, I have a proposition for you:

The idea you and many other on the left end of the political spectrum seem to be having trouble understanding the difference between articles of opinion and that of fact is not sub rosa. As they say, I am being condemned ipso facto. Therefore, I propose a 2500 word (or more) challenge. You shall write why you believe Biden would make a good president and McCain would not; I shall write the opposite. The format can be written in MLA, APA, or any other style you prefer. However, you must cite in APA style. I feel it is the easiest style for readers to track down the information. Assuming the essay conforms to all rules set forth, the forum members will vote on which one they feel is best written. It must be posted by 6:00PM, September 22nd. Do you accept?

I rather hope you do.

Edited by IrishAidan, 19 September 2008 - 09:28 PM.