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The Phoenix Lights


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#61    Kipperphoenix

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 07:35 AM

therion24 on Sep 22 2008, 12:23 AM, said:

Really? I didnt know that. Then I guess it wasnt flares. I thought they were flares.


Yea, they were first spotted at around 8 p.m. and were last seen headed towards California or Nevada at around 10 p.m. original.gif

Here, read the article here.Phoenix Lights. thumbsup.gif

Not only were they visible for more than 2 hours, lights would go off, and then come back on. yes.gif

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#62    supercar

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 07:46 AM

Markissluv on Sep 21 2008, 08:00 PM, said:

And so for the staged event where the military dropped diversion flares check this video out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0We40rEs0ZY


At 5 minutes and 44 seconds into this video it appears the lights are in front of the mountains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLD1MQUnH14...feature=related

Here is a frame grab from the video showing the position of the lights relative to the top of the mountain:

linked-image

The guy who videotaped the lights said he thought the lights were in front of the mountains.

Edited by supercar, 22 September 2008 - 07:50 AM.


#63    Kipperphoenix

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 08:12 AM

Flares would give of some visible smoke and or a parachute. And it moves to slow for any known earth aircraft. So I would like to here from the sceptics on what they think it could be.  thumbsup.gif

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#64    Lilly

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 01:35 PM

SkepticalEd on Sep 22 2008, 04:11 AM, said:

There were 2 events reported that night and both are on video.  The first was of a triangular craft which when the video is seen is just a formation of planes because the V-shape is not held as if the lights were fixed on one surface.


Witnesses, including former Governor Symington say they saw something other than just planes and flares. See link to article here.

QUOTE (SkepticalEd)
What object did the former Governer see and how does anyone know what he saw or if he is mistaken in what he thinks he saw?


From the above linked to article it appears that former Governor Symington does not know exactly what he saw, but he's convinced (as are many others) that the flares and planes explanation does not suffice to explain what he saw.

QUOTE (SkepticalEd)
I didn't "attempt" to put words in your mouth, I challenged what you said that by not accepting the evidence you are perpetuating a fantasy.  There's evidence.  To ignore it...


Actually, you quite clearly implied that since I do not agree with your take on all this that I'm essentially calling some people "liars".

QUOTE (SkepticalEd)
Geeuz, why not rely on the available evidence that is out there for all to see instead of creating something unsupportable with evidence?! It was a military exercise using certain military planes dropping certain military flares. Why is this not accepted? Besides, as I said, one of the videos shows airplane strobe lights in the distance.

By taking your stance you are saying that respected pilots and spokespeople are liars!

And there is NO mystery save that preferred by those who have a hard time accepting prosaic explanations.


Now, there very well may have been some planes and flares involved in this incident. But, it's also quite possible that people saw something else as well.


QUOTE (SkepticalEd)
To consider a "blimp" is just ridiculous.  That's a new one!


No, it's neither a "new one", nor is it "ridiculous". Apparently, you did not read the article I previously linked to. Here's the link again.

QUOTE (article)
"Lockheed has shown a great deal of interest in airships for many years. The real question is whether the Department of Defense has committed to buy and use such machines," Miller said.

Stealth blimp

Large airships are of benefit to the military.

They are capable of carrying extremely large and heavy payloads at a reasonable speed, for which there is a real mission need, Miller said.

The U.S. airlift fleet is getting old, taking a great beating in the last 10 years in such locales as Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. Some new aircraft are making it into the inventory, but they still have limits. For instance, to move loads of tanks and other gear requires lots of flights and support.

"An airship that could carry a large number of tanks, troops, and supplies into a region overnight would be fantastic," Miller said.




QUOTE (SkepticalEd)
They were military planes dropping flares.  They were planes flying in a V formation.

There's evidence for the above 2, satisfies "skeptics."


Could very well have been planes and flares involved. However, these two explanations do not satisfy the claims that many people saw a solid object of unknown origin (the object the Governor says he, too, saw).

QUOTE (SkepticalEd)
Show evidence for anything other than the above 2, satisfies believers.

No UFOs, no "lights," no aliens.


I never claimed that any of this had to do with ET. I certainly can't prove that the object some folks claim to have seen was a military stealth blimp...However, there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence for the flares/planes hypothesis explaining what the Governor says he saw either. Frankly, I see no reason why this might not have been a combination of all of the above explanations (flares, planes, military stealth blimp).

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#65    DONTEATUS

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 02:03 PM

I would bet on something other than Flares,they drop within a min albeat a slow rate they still drop  very easy to see in all flare drop shots .IMO ,will be nice to see more data on this one.

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#66    Markissluv

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 05:13 PM

You know, when you think of it. The idea of a secret military "Stealth Blimp" program carries a lot more believability than some Triangular Extraterrestrial UFO thats decides it wants to slowly float above a city blink a few lights and head back to the stars. Military Black projects have spooking people into thinking these objects are other-worldly for a long time now.

The excuse I hear is "There is no way this technology is ours." Why do we limit our own technological abilities? Every decade another technological achievement surfaces that  we never imagined would be possible. Look at the former link someone posted about the stealth cloaking technology (rendering tanks invisible) that is proposed to be deployed in only a hand full of years. That technology has probably been in development since the 70s or earlier.
The Sr-71 blackbird was being developed prior to the 50s. Inspiration for the B2 stealth bomber was taken from the German's original flying wing concept during WW 2. A stealth blimp that transports huge loads of military equipment practically and efficiently would be a miracle for the military. A prized possession that would warrant it's apparent technological secrecy.

Another question would be why does the government allow for the open displays every now and then of these crafts over our cities? Some situations could be the imperfection of their cloak abilities or for gradual disclosure of the new technology. ie "Lets de-cloak and make the news. The public will eventually be numb to the aircraft and we can still keep it's technology a closely guarded secret."

Once the government openly acknowledges these technologies to the public and begins flying them at air-shows, other countries such as China and Russia can now study them and try to figure what makes them tick.

The government should just keep them secret. Or perhaps acknowledge that it was testing a secret technology. So people aren't frightened as much. What I try to think about is if this world were to spiral down into another world war hopefully we would have the technology to end the war quickly and survive as a nation. The billions of dollars being spend on these projects will be a worthy investment in that case.

Edited by Markissluv, 22 September 2008 - 05:19 PM.

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#67    DONTEATUS

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:33 PM

What we dont know can hurt us in some cases.

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#68    They're Here

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 06:52 PM

Markissluv on Sep 22 2008, 01:13 PM, said:

You know, when you think of it. The idea of a secret military "Stealth Blimp" program carries a lot more believability than some Triangular Extraterrestrial UFO thats decides it wants to slowly float above a city blink a few lights and head back to the stars. Military Black projects have spooking people into thinking these objects are other-worldly for a long time now.


Personally, I don't understand the purpose of replacing one unknown with another unknown. But if you are going to consider the possibility of top-secret blimps, you either have to take into account some of the witnesses saying it took off at fast speed, or else dismiss their claims altogether. Now I suppose it's possible the government has the technology to make a blimp take off at high speed. When you're dealing with unknowns, I guess anything's possible.


#69    Lilly

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 08:39 PM

They're Here on Sep 22 2008, 06:52 PM, said:

Personally, I don't understand the purpose of replacing one unknown with another unknown.


I don't think this is what is happening here. What we're doing is postulating various hypotheses regarding what the unknown object might have been. Granted, this is unlikely to lead to proving much of anything, but tossing out ideas is interesting if nothing else.

Quote

But if you are going to consider the possibility of top-secret blimps, you either have to take into account some of the witnesses saying it took off at fast speed, or else dismiss their claims altogether. Now I suppose it's possible the government has the technology to make a blimp take off at high speed. When you're dealing with unknowns, I guess anything's possible.


Certainly, I'm willing to consider all aspects of reported UFO events. But, I always keep in mind that anecdotal evidence is always considered very weak evidence. When dealing with unknowns a great many ideas are possible, but not all ideas are equally probable.


"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#70    WARRIOR FOR THE LIGHT

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 09:27 PM

supercar on Sep 22 2008, 03:46 AM, said:

At 5 minutes and 44 seconds into this video it appears the lights are in front of the mountains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLD1MQUnH14...feature=related

Here is a frame grab from the video showing the position of the lights relative to the top of the mountain:

linked-image

The guy who videotaped the lights said he thought the lights were in front of the mountains.

This was how they appeared to me too... The Mcdowell mountain range was in the backround.. only they were straight across in a line, not with uneven heightd or apparent decending motion such as this pic shows....

The flares that the army uses have a self detonatling system which open at a pre determined height and then decend... so one would see the flare coming in a downward motion.


#71    They're Here

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 09:58 PM

Lilly on Sep 22 2008, 04:39 PM, said:

I don't think this is what is happening here. What we're doing is postulating various hypotheses regarding what the unknown object might have been. Granted, this is unlikely to lead to proving much of anything, but tossing out ideas is interesting if nothing else.


I didn't mean any offense or mean to ridicule how you reason through these things. I was just stating my opinion. I hope it wasn't taken personally.

Lilly on Sep 22 2008, 04:39 PM, said:

Certainly, I'm willing to consider all aspects of reported UFO events. But, I always keep in mind that anecdotal evidence is always considered very weak evidence. When dealing with unknowns a great many ideas are possible, but not all ideas are equally probable.


When you're dealing with unknowns, like "what is our government capable of doing in secret" you can pretty much explain away anything. There is really nothing that couldn't be explained away in that respect, and that is why I think it's mostly pointless.

Edited by They're Here, 22 September 2008 - 09:59 PM.


#72    SkepticalEd

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 10:08 PM

Lost interest, useless to continue.

Believers do not need evidence, they're stuck in a belief rut.

Thank "god" I'm not a believer; worthless.


Think for yourself.
Reach your own conclusions.
Seek truth, wherever it may lead you.
Hold no value higher than reason.

You cannot have a cult of individuals.

Anecdotes are not evidence.

God must love stupid people; He made so many.

#73    Lilly

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 11:16 PM

QUOTE ('They're Here')
I didn't mean any offense or mean to ridicule how you reason through these things. I was just stating my opinion. I hope it wasn't taken personally.


Oh, not at all...no offense taken in the least.  original.gif I was just trying to explain why some people might be interested in tossing out various explanations regarding these unknowns.



QUOTE (They're Here)
When you're dealing with unknowns, like "what is our government capable of doing in secret" you can pretty much explain away anything. There is really nothing that couldn't be explained away in that respect, and that is why I think it's mostly pointless.


Very true, what one does is attempt to find some evidence. What one must keep in mind is that the military certainly has developed secret aircraft in the past (ex, Stealth bomber) and is likely to do so in the future. Let's face it, secrecy is a good thing in this instance, if such were made public we'd know, but so would our enemies!


QUOTE (SkepticalEd)
Thank "god" I'm not a believer; worthless.


Thank "god" (?) Is this supposed to be ironic?






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#74    Scudbuster

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 11:49 PM

SkepticalEd on Sep 22 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

Lost interest, useless to continue.

Believers do not need evidence, they're stuck in a belief rut.

Thank "god" I'm not a believer; worthless.



Uh-huh- typical Ed response. I noticed that - once again - you refused to watch and comment on the video featuring the aviation and military experts that flatly stated there were absolutely no flares involved in this incident.

Why? Well......because Ed - knows all, that's why!  rolleyes.gif

Edited by Scudbuster, 22 September 2008 - 11:50 PM.


#75    They're Here

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 11:56 PM

Lilly on Sep 22 2008, 07:16 PM, said:

Very true, what one does is attempt to find some evidence. What one must keep in mind is that the military certainly has developed secret aircraft in the past (ex, Stealth bomber) and is likely to do so in the future. Let's face it, secrecy is a good thing in this instance, if such were made public we'd know, but so would our enemies!


So when was the blimp supposedly created? I don't think these were the first sightings of triangle aircraft, but maybe the first with so many witnesses. Also, what is the government doing parading secret aircraft across the state of Arizona? What are the lights for, and why wouldn't they make some attempt to cover them up? Don't they owe it to us not to scare people like that or get their hopes up? Is there really any evidence that the government has a blimp like this or perhaps could this information coming from people who would want to discredit UFOs? Is it even possible to build a blimp that takes off at high speed?

You don't really have to answer all these questions, a few would be nice, but I think if we're going to be skeptical, it's important we be skeptical all around.

Edited by They're Here, 23 September 2008 - 12:00 AM.





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