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Telekinesis: Fact or Fiction?


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#1    UM-Debate-Bot

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 04:44 AM

Ziggy Stardust vs Flame Dragon

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Ziggy Stardust is arguing in favour of Fiction

Flame Dragon is arguing in favour of Fact

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#2    Flame Dragon

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Posted 13 October 2008 - 05:01 PM

Introduction

This is just my quick intro: Over the years many have marvelled over the unexplained ablities of others. Telekinesis is one as a fact is debated constantly fact or fiction, in my later posts i will try to give you points in which will convince you the wonders of the human body.


#3    Ziggy Stardust

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 05:20 AM

Introduction

Telekinesis - the professed ability to directly influence physical matter with nothing but the mind. Those who claim to posess this 'power' (usually children and adolescents) are often labelled as arrogant, delusional attention seekers, or just plain frauds. Do they deserve to be banished by skeptics? Is there, in the entire history of humanity, a single formally documented instance of this phenomena? In the posts that follow I will lay out the cold hard facts, and explain why if Telekinesis did indeed exist, it would have been scientifically proven a long time ago.

The world needs more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.

#4    Flame Dragon

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 01:56 AM

My opponent has given points which any person with a good level of intellect will agree, but i say what if. What if we put aside logic and try to understand that there are still unexplained parts of this world, for example the existence of god. Not wanting to stray off the topic, but many have said that "god does not exist" when countless times they have been baffled by the wonders of "god". In Africa there was a documentary on a priest that died and came back three days later, I cannot remember his name, but how ever also leading to a man by the name of Prahlad Jani has lived without food or fluids for 65 years! scientists themselves have done tests and were amazed. The following is the exact extract on what I have researched to you, the people that we "humans" are more than we think.



"I feel no need for food and water," states Prahladbhai Jani, a seventy-six year old Indian ascetic who lives in a cave near the Ambaji temple in the state of Gujarat. Mr. Jani claims that he has not had food or fluids to drink for the last sixty-five years. At the age of seven years he left home in search of spiritual unfoldment. Jani states that at the age of eleven years he was blessed by a goddess. He claims that since that blessing he has gained his sustenance from nectar that filters down through a hole in his palate, and has not passed urine or stools since then. Mr. Jani explained, "I get the elixir of life from the hole in my palate, which enables me to go without food and water." Almost daily Mr. Jani enters a state of Samadhi characterized by extreme bliss and enormous light and strength. He says that he has never experienced medical problems. He says that he did not speak for a period of forty-five years.

In November 2003, after over a year of coaxing, Prahlad Jani was finally persuaded to participate in a scientific research study. A medical research team of twenty-one specialists, headed by Dr. Sudhir V. Shah, had Mr. Jani under twenty-four hours of observation for ten days at the Sterling Hospital in Ahmedabad. The team's research expertise included cardiology, neurology, urology, gastroenterology, ophthalmology, renal function, pulmonary function, ENT analysis, psychiatry, general medicine, and other specialities. A series of investigations were done on Mr. Jani in each of these areas according to a pre-determined protocol, and additional tests were carried out as per suggestions of the team. At the conclusion of their intensive investigations the team's doctors were left with an unexplained mystery, unable to disprove Mr. Jani's claims.

Mr. Jani was initially kept in ICU for the first twenty-four hours. For the next nine days he was kept in a specially prepared room with a sealed-off toilet and a glass door. The room was also equipped with video surveillance to continuously monitor Mr. Jani. Additionally, staff persons were assigned to stay in the same room with Jani round-the-clock to make sure that he did not eat, drink, or pass urine or stool.

To assure researchers of no possible intake of water, Mr. Jani agreed he would not bathe during the medical investigation. Mr. Jani was permitted a small measured quantity of water to use as a mouthwash. He then spat the water into a beaker to verify that none had been drunk. An ultrasound, which was made of Mr. Jani's bladder twice daily, indicated that there was urine accumulation, which subsequently decreased on its own without passing.

At the end of the ten days of observation, the team of doctors verified that Prahladbhai Jani had not taken food or drank fluids. (The average person cannot survive without water for more than four days.) The team concluded that Mr. Jani's health had not deteriorated during this study. Also, according to the hospital's deputy superintendent, Dr. Dinesh Desai, "A series of tests conducted on him show his body mechanism is that of a normal person." Mr. Jani's survival without food or fluids remains one of those unexplained mysteries.

The following are excerpts from the research team's concluding report:

    1. The protocol was strictly adhered to.

    2. Mr. Jani had not passed or dribbled urine during these 10 days.

    3. He has not taken anything by mouth or by any other routes not even water for 10 days.

    4. All his parameters remained within the range determined by the committee.

    5. He has shown evidence of formation of urine, which seems to be reabsorbed from his bladder wall. However, at present the committee does not have any scientific explanation for the same but the help of senior scientists and medical personnel of the country is being taken for the same.

    We are surprised as to how he has survived despite above particularly without passing urine for 10 days and remaining generally physically fit. However, it should be made very clear that we have confirmed the claim over 10 days only and we as scientists and responsible doctors cannot say anything regarding validity of the claim of his sustaining without food, drinks, urination and excretion of stools over several years.


Dr. Sudhir V. Shah (Consultant Neurophysician, Sterling Hospital/Associate professor of neurology at K. M. School of PGMR, Ahmedabad) headed the research panel of doctors who performed this study. I am deeply grateful to Dr. Sudhir V. Shah for providing the Case Summary of this study along with the photos of Mr. Jani. To view the Case Summary of Mr. Jani in its entirety please go to: P. Jani Medical Report.

Another similar research study, also headed by Dr. Sudhir V. Shah at Sterling Hospital, was conducted on Hira Ratan Manek. Mr. Manek claimed not to have eaten since 1995. Mr. Manek was kept under scientific observation round-the-clock for 411 continuous days. During this time Mr. Manek subsisted only on boiled water. This study also left researchers baffled. Dr. Sudhir V. Shah kindly provided a copy of his article about this study which was published in Gujarat Medical Journal March 2001.
To view this report online please see: Mr. Manek Medical Report.      So my viewers  if you want to see more on this topic please visit the following URL: http://www.amazingab...om/amaze5a.html
I hope you enjoyed this post





#5    Ziggy Stardust

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 06:23 AM

The study above is a remarkable example of human endurance, which is no doubt the result of extraordinary biological aberrancy. However it does not provide suppport for Telekinesis.

If Telekinesis existed it would be extremely easy to prove. Empirical evidence, properly documented in accordance with scientific method, can be published in any country at any time. The fact that the test would be under 'scientific' conditions would not hinder the self-professed telekinetic's skill in any way; it would simply mean that there would be no way for trickery or illusionist techniques to be used. Once published, the study would provide irrefutable evidence for Telekinesis. So why, in the thousands of years that people have claimed to possess this ability, has this not happened? Well, it's for the same reason that nobody who claims to be able to summon undead pig-monsters has had their ability documented. It can't be documented under controlled conditions. Why? Because it isn't real. It's a farse dreamed up by people who need to feel different and special.

People may argue: "Well, there is more to the world than science can prove. Consider God, for example. He can't be proven, but could still exist." This is true; God could exist. God is a non-physical deity, God is ethereal, so in theory, God could still be in existence despite our inability to prove it. However, Telekinesis is so far from the idea of God, it's a joke to mention them in the same sentence. Telekinesis professes the ability to move and manipulate physical objects. Unlike God, who can't be seen, Telekinesis can be seen by all - it is an ability which influences physical matter. I say again - was Telekinesis an actuality, everyone would be aware of its existence, and probably use it themselves. It is simply too farfetched a claim to slip through the fingers of science like God has.

The mystical allure of Telekinetic ability has never ceased to amaze and excite mankind. However, the fact that professed Telekinetic practice has trickled from the imagination into self-professed reality is evidence not of the "power of the human mind" but the willingness of people to believe anything which appeals to them - even if it has absolutely no verifiable evidence to support it. The internet, a place where wild claims can be made unchallenged at leisure, is overflowing with people who profess Telekinetic ability - yet in the physical world - the real, tangible reality of life, there is not only a single documented incidence. Go figure.

Edited by Ziggy Stardust, 15 October 2008 - 11:58 PM.

The world needs more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.

#6    Flame Dragon

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 04:49 PM

My opponent may say that telekinesis is easy to prove, i will tell you certainly i believe so as well, although in my final post i will not give you a listed post please go to this URL: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6425599/Telekinesis-1       this is  link to teach you on Telekinesis and the chakra system.   This is not false, I my self have praticed the chakras and found results. To Ziggy stardust "BEAT THAT"


#7    Ziggy Stardust

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Posted 17 October 2008 - 10:28 PM

An instruction manual on how to perform Telekinesis is not proof of Telekinesis. It's the same as providing a manual on how to summon undead pig-monsters in order to support the existence of pig-summoning.

The document my opponent has provided opens with "The author did not learn Telekinesis from the reading of a document, nor was the author taught Telekinesis. Literally how the author learned Telekinesis is not important to discuss. The reason is that you may not be able to learn Telekinesis from the same source of practice." Instantly, the document puts its tail between its legs; it doesn't promise Telekinetic ability, because, obviously, no Telekinetic ability will come as a result of reading the document. It also evokes self-incrimination within the reader; it says "the reason you may not be able to learn Telekinesis" in order to make the reader blame themselves when they get no results as opposed to the document. Self-professed Telekinetics often say "I don't need to prove anything to you, just learn how to do it and see for yourself" and, naturally, when we fail, we are expected to blame our own inadequacy, whilst the 'psychic' (in this case Flame Dragon) assures us that it worked for him.

The document also says "Within the time writing this document, the author searched for Telekinesis documents to use for reference. Unfortunately, no good references could be found." In this instance I thank thank the author for being honest about the non-existence of viable Telekinesis references. Overall, the document is a good read - but only if you have a colourful imagination.

The world needs more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.

#8    Flame Dragon

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 11:59 PM


my opponent may say that the booklet does not prove telekinesis, but I beg to differ. Many say that we are energy beings and both negative and positive energy affects us in different ways. You may ask how is this relevant to telekinesis? Well i continue, there are seven chakras in the body. These are centers of energy which  operate at a different frequencies  and affects different functions of the body. When one balances there chakras it is possible to learn "psychic abilities" just as ancient sages have done before us by using the same method. I totally disagree when my opponent says that the document does not prove telekinesis. Although i am not a master of Telekinesis i can tell you the effects of chakra are quite real and many will find that when you balance your chakras and your body comes it perfect harmony its amazing. (try it) The book let also speaks about psi balls, many have also proclaimed to have made psi balls like myself, are we all mad? Is your knowledge false, are all your experiences just imagination? I don't think so. The chakras are an amazing gift from god, with this you can speak to your spirit guides, what are these spirit guides you ask? Well have you heard of the guardian angel that always with you well spirit guides is just another name for them. With the chakras all these things are possible. Even clairvoyance is possible with the chakras as well as many other things. Have you ever heard the phone ring before it actually rings and sometimes know who was calling? Well the chakras work different in everyone some people are more balanced than others never the less almost everyone has experienced something "weird" in their life time. Well that all folks good bye 4 now.


#9    Ziggy Stardust

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 02:16 AM

Flame Dragon on Oct 20 2008, 12:59 PM, said:

there are seven chakras in the body. These are centers of energy which  operate at a different frequencies  and affects different functions of the body. When one balances there chakras it is possible to learn "psychic abilities" just as ancient sages have done before us by using the same method.


Chakras are an unfounded esoteric concept, and most posit that their existence is limited to the psyche.

Flame Dragon on Oct 20 2008, 12:59 PM, said:

I totally disagree when my opponent says that the document does not prove telekinesis.


How does a document which calls itself a manual on telekinesis, prove the existence of telekinesis? Below is a brief manual on how to perform levitation.

1. Sit down and relax.

2. Activate your heart chakra

3. Say "In the name of Grishnev, allow me to float"

4. Repeat

Do the above instructions prove the existence of levitation? No, they are farsical fiction. Like the above, the document gives no actual evidence for telekinesis. How is that proof?

Flame Dragon on Oct 20 2008, 12:59 PM, said:

Although i am not a master of Telekinesis i can tell you the effects of chakra are quite real and many will find that when you balance your chakras and your body comes it perfect harmony its amazing. (try it) The book let also speaks about psi balls, many have also proclaimed to have made psi balls like myself, are we all mad? Is your knowledge false, are all your experiences just imagination?


It is to be expected that you hurriedly reject any notion that your beliefs have been brought about by subjective validation, whilst embracing the farfetched concept of telekinesis with open arms. Only time will remedy your delusion; with age, you will look back on the days you thought you had powers and chuckle at the unparalleled complexity of the human mind, and its willingness to be fooled. I did.


The world needs more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.

#10    Flame Dragon

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:00 PM

Dear readers, i am amazed that such an itelligent opponent will say something of the lesser mind. Chakras cannot (at least I and others believe so)
be explained through the physical aspsect. The chakras exist in the subtle body and there fore it is unseen energy that cannot be examined by the human eye. Hoever  there are tools which are given to  help us control these centers of energy. He said that it is facial fiction, but one must try to look deeper into spirituality and discover that all is not of the fleash but spirit.
It like i told you that god does not exist, i am sure many of you belive in god as i do, it may be truth that science has not proved the existance of god, but why does science dictate what is real and what is not? many of us  have had hard times and god interviened and assisted us in many financial problems that was not possible to come out of or some other issue that you thought was too much to face. Did we just "magically" jusmp out of our problems. i think not, my opponent keeps on trying to convice you to only trust logic i day trust what you see but in moderation.



#11    Ziggy Stardust

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 06:52 PM

Flame Dragon on Oct 22 2008, 06:00 AM, said:

my opponent keeps on trying to convice you to only trust logic i day trust what you see but in moderation.


How can we trust what we see if you're talking about is an unseen energy? In the case of Telekinesis, I have never seen any incidence of the phenomena ever occuring, and despite much searching, have never seen a single documented incidence either.

If Chakras, like God, cannot be explained through the physical aspect, that is fine. In fact, for the sake of argument I will consider it. But Telekinesis is not "of the spirit." Telekinesis is not unseen. It is the manipulation of physical objects. If Telekinesis existed, it could be seen by all. Arguing the existence of unseen energies in order to prove Telekinesis is absurd.



The world needs more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.

#12    Saru

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 09:09 AM

With four main body posts from both sides its time now to wrap up this debate with your conclusions.


#13    Flame Dragon

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 08:00 PM

My opponent clearly misunderstood what i meant, or just trying his best to throw me off balance. Never the less i shall continue.

My opponent stated before that a booklet on how to use telekinesis does not prove its existence, i understand if meant that the booklet could be false, but i clearly stated i my self have done chakra meditations and have seen results. my main purpose is to try and open your mind on the aspect. How can one want remain narrow minded (no insults to anyone who reads this just a statement). For example some say aliens do not exist, for many who is deep into science should know that the universe is quite large. How can we be the only form of life in this vast universe. Have every one who said that they saw mysterious objects are either lying, crazy or just want their 15minutes of fame. Come on, I urge you to take into consideration the possibility of Telekinesis. When my opponent made a big laugh at the mantra or incantation as one may call it, of the heart chakra  "In the name of Grishnev, allow me to float"
one may say what nonsense! but i will tell you that is by this same nonsense ancient sages of India, Africa and china and other places have performed these amazing acts berfore even a skeptic's eye. They, at least some of them tested and proven it reality although unexplained. So my viewers what is so wrong in saying "this can be real" what is wrong with practicing the chakra for yourself and see. So to my conclusion Telekinesis is not fiction but actually an unexplained fact of this world.


#14    Ziggy Stardust

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 09:02 PM

A non-belief in Telekinesis is not narrow-mindedness. It is simply rationality. I have never seen any proof, study, documentation, or unexplained event which even began to provide support for the existence of Telekinesis. How is thereby choosing not to believe in it narrow-minded? Were I to see Telekinesis performed before my very eyes and still discount it, that would be narrow-mindedness. Until that day, I insist on taking a logical approach, rather than living a lie. There are a few things wrong with saying "this can be real." If Telekinesis existed, we would know it was real by now. Let's live in reality. My opponent urges us to be open-minded, because that is the only way Telekinesis can be believed; if a person can maintain unfounded, unquestioning belief. His anecdotal evidence is insufficient, and his asking for us to learn Telekinesis in order to prove it to ourselves is hardly grounds for a proper argument. He calls Telekinesis 'fact' but how can it be fact if it is unverified? At the end of this debate, we are much the same as when we began; there remains no evidence or adequate arguments for the existence of Telekinesis and thus, until such evidence is found, those who claim to be able to perform it should not be believed. Thank you to my opponent.





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#15    Saru

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 11:58 AM

Ok that's the debate complete and this thread is now open to member comments.

Thanks to both our participants for taking part. thumbsup.gif





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