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Telekinesis: Fact or Fiction?


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#31    eqgumby

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 02:05 PM

bee on Oct 27 2008, 08:00 AM, said:

There are different levels of 'proof' though aren't there. Ie..seeing it in front of your own eyes...believing an eye-witness...
trusting the orthodox scientific community. etc.

Also...I consider the bolded above...to be another example of a 'sly dig'. (hey..this is just like old-times... grin2.gif )

As you know the likes of Tesla and Einstein wouldn't have done what they did, if they had been held back by
the psychological constraints that sceptics tend to put on innovation + invention.  (exploring something that sounds/feels 'cool'
has probably made the modern technological world what it is today....)

I think equating Tesla and Einstein with any current or even past scientific study of psychic phenomena is pushing the envelope. "Psi" is far from the same level as atomic physics or electrical engineering. This may change some day, when (and if) psychic phenomena/abilities are ever shown to be a repeatable, quantifiable, researchable event. In teh meantime, it just has to remain in the "unknown" column of human experience.

If this kind of reasoning is seen as a "dig"...well, psi is what it is...and the more people that pop up and claim to have 19 different abilities including the ability to control the weather...the harder it is to justify a case for it's reality.

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#32    chaoszerg

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 02:23 PM

Quote

Now, this is all getting very surreal...on your profile you say you are 26 years old. What's with all these (alleged) very
young people claiming to have 'learnt better'...with the passage of time...?

As we are playing the age-game..I must inform you that I'm more than twice as old as you (if you ARE 26)....so when you are
as old mature   original.gif   as me...in 28 years time  (get your calculators out boys and girls !!! ) you might have a leg to stand on...with this
age argument..... tongue.gif


Lol Bee most of the people on here who make wild claims to have psychic powers tend to turn out to be 13 to 16, people have to grow up sometime, and if you are much older than me and still believe in these silly things then...  no.gif

Tk is not real Bee, it is just a x-men belief for people to latch onto, it has not been proved to be real, showing youtube vids does not make it real either. I want it to be real, like many other things I want to be real, but we have to come to a point and accept that some things are fantasy and make believe, and no amount of role playing or wishing it to be true is going to change that. sad.gif


Edit: fix quote tags

Edited by chaoszerg, 27 October 2008 - 02:26 PM.


#33    Slave2Fate

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 06:28 PM

bee on Oct 27 2008, 05:22 AM, said:

I'm with Flame Dragon.....I felt that they put real effort into creating the ground-work for accepting that telekinesis was a live possibility/fact.
Whereas Ziggy Stardust just repeated variations on..."I haven't seen any evidence."

I also thought that Ziggy used below the belt tactics....when using Flame Dragon's age against them....kind of 'pat-pat' on the head...
'you'll grow up and learn' type of thing.  And THEN it turns out that Ziggy is claiming to be all of 19 years old on his profile !

I think that sly digs and repeated demands for proof...is the basic formula to most sceptics arguements....
(but as you can see....I am not above the sly dig myself..... tongue.gif )


As I said, I believe Ziggy had the better argument, the point of the debate was TK, fact or fiction. Flame Dragon, while also putting forth good arguments could only point at the "possibility" of TK without proof. In my book anything that is "possible" but without proof falls in the realm of fiction. At least until a point in time that proof can be presented that changes my initial stance. I'm not completely against the idea, it's just without hard evidence it is only speculation and hearsay to me. thumbsup.gif


* oh and BTW, the winner of a debate is the one who is judged to have presented the better argument, it doesn't necessarily mean they are correct. cool.gif

Edited by Slave2Fate, 27 October 2008 - 06:30 PM.

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#34    bee

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 07:18 PM

chaoszerg on Oct 27 2008, 02:23 PM, said:

if you are much older than me and still believe in these silly things then...  no.gif


Aaahhhh...the innocence of youth... grin2.gif  It is not unusual for a 19 year old or a 26 year old to believe that they
know it all and have all the answers. Knowing how much you don't know comes with age and experience.... wink2.gif
Shall we leave the age thing alone now?

Quote

Tk is not real Bee, it is just a x-men belief for people to latch onto, it has not been proved to be real, showing youtube vids does not make it real either. I want it to be real, like many other things I want to be real, but we have to come to a point and accept that some things are fantasy and make believe, and no amount of role playing or wishing it to be true is going to change that. sad.gif


http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-142874.html

Quote

This is a brief excerpt of the USA Military paper about Teleportation (only several pieces of it). It is recommended to read the complete original document, which is full of mathematical equations, formulas, diagrams, and so on:

- Teleportation Physics Study (telekinesis)
AIR FORCE RESEARCH LABORATORY.
AIR FORCE MATERIEL COMMAND.
EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE CA 93524-7048.
APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE; DISTRIBUTION UNLIMITED.
Eric W. Davis. Warp Drive Metrics. 4849 San Rafael Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89120 August 2004. Special Report
URL: http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf


It transpires that the Military and Air Force are more than a little interested in telekinesis.....

Couple of quotes from the link above....

Quote

P-Teleportation is a form of psychokinesis (or PK) similar to telekinesis but generally used to designate the movement of objects (called apports) through other physical objects or over great distances. Telekinesis is a form of PK, which describes the movement of stationary objects without the use of any known physical force. And PK is essentially the direct influence of mind on matter without any known intermediate physical energy or instrumentation. Rigorously controlled modern scientific laboratory PK, and related psychic (a.k.a. “psi”, “paranormal” or parapsychology), research has been performed and/or documented by Rhine (1970), Schmidt (1974), Mitchell (1974a, b, see also the references cited therein), Swann (1974), Puthoff and Targ (1974, 1975), Hasted et al. (1975), Targ and Puthoff (1977), Nash (1978, see also the references cited therein), Shigemi et al. (1978), Hasted (1979), Houck (1984a), Wolman et al. (1986, see also the references cited therein), Schmidt (1987), Alexander et al. (1990), Giroldini (1991), Gissurarson (1992), Radin (1997, see also the references cited therein), Tart et al. (2002), Shoup (2002), and Alexander (2003).

A well-known theoretical/experimental/operational program directed by H. E. Puthoff, R. Targ, E. May and I. Swann was conducted at SRI International and the NSA, and sponsored at various times by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), and the Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) over more than two decades;



Quote

A more spectacular series of rigorously controlled (and repeatable!) laboratory experiments occurred in the Peoples Republic of China (PRC). In September 1981, an extraordinary paper was published in the PRC in the journal Ziran Zazhi (transl.: Nature Journal), and this paper was entitled, “Some Experiments on the Transfer of Objects Performed by Unusual Abilities of the Human Body” (Shuhuang et al., 1981). The paper reported that gifted children were able to cause the apparent teleportation of small objects (radio micro-transmitters, photosensitive paper, mechanical watches, horseflies, other insects, etc.) from one location to another (that was meters away) without them ever touching the objects beforehand.

The experiments were operated under exceptionally wellcontrolled conditions (both blind and double-blind). The researchers involved included not only observers from various PRC colleges and medical research institutes, but also representatives from the PRC National Defense Science Commission. Because of the involvement of the latter, it was deemed necessary that an unclassified Intelligence Information Report be prepared by the DIA (see Shuhuang et al., 1981), which included a detailed English translation of the article.

Additional research carried out by the Aerospace Medicine Engineering Institute in Beijing was reported in the July 1990 issue of the Chinese Journal of Somatic Science (Kongzhi et al., 1990; Jinggen et al., 1990; Banghui, 1990), which was also translated into English by the DIA.

Reported in several articles are experiments involving the videotaping and high-speed photography of the transfer of test specimens (nuts, bundles of matches, pills, nails, thread, photosensitive paper, chemically treated paper, sponges dipped in FeCl3, etc.) through the walls of sealed paper envelopes, double layered KCNS type paper bags, sealed glass bottles and tubes with sealed caps, and sealed plastic film canisters without the walls of any of these containers being breached.

All of the Chinese experiments reported using gifted children and young adults, who possessed well-known extraordinary PK ability, to cause the teleportation of the various test specimens. In all the experimental cases that were reported, the test specimens that were teleported were completely unaltered or unchanged from their initial state, even the insects were unaffected by being teleported. The experiments were well controlled, scientifically recorded, and the experimental results were always repeatable.








#35    AlexG

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 07:20 PM

There has yet to be any demontration of telekinesis which cannot be duplicated by a competent stage magician.

Reading something they can understand, that seems to make sense, that presents itself as technically competent, non-scientists are easily gulled by fake science. --Henry H. Bauer

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#36    Flame Dragon

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 11:11 PM

Thank you all for reading the debate. Some who think ziggy has won i see your point. As well with those sided with me i thank you for seeing my point of view. Thanks


#37    Syaoransbear

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 11:11 PM

What a funny debate. My opinion is completely unbiased in that I do not believe, and I do not disbelieve. Ziggy did a far better job, and Flame Dragon came off as somewhat childish. Ziggy effortlessly gave facts, while Flame Dragon gave me the impression that he was desperately grasping in the dark for anything that could prove telekinesis, no matter how unrelated it actually was to telekinesis.


#38    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 11:16 PM

I give it to Zig, but I am a bit biased. Boo ya!

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#39    DrawingPics

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:07 AM

An interesting topic, moving objects with the power of thought. I like to daydream about the topic although I am not too sure about it. But the debate was quite boring.


#40    Ziggy Stardust

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:01 AM

bee on Oct 27 2008, 11:37 PM, said:

Would you care to expand on................ laugh.gif

This is the formal debate section, after all.


Exactly; this is a formal debate section. I would have thought posting of sensationalist videos - probably more inclined towards drawing viewers than anything else - as 'proof,' to be quite incongruous. In fact, the idea that someone could actually deem that video as 'evidence' for the existence of TK does truthfully make me chuckle. So, once again:  laugh.gif

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#41    Syaoransbear

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:30 AM

I felt like through the entire debate Ziggy was laughing behind all of his posts.


#42    bee

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 11:25 AM

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf



http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-142874.html



Ziggy Stardust on Oct 28 2008, 05:01 AM, said:

Exactly; this is a formal debate section. I would have thought posting of sensationalist videos - probably more inclined towards drawing viewers than anything else - as 'proof,' to be quite incongruous. In fact, the idea that someone could actually deem that video as 'evidence' for the existence of TK does truthfully make me chuckle. So, once again:  laugh.gif


So....do you think that Kalugina had telekinesis ability?

Also....have you looked at the recently released (2004) military documents, about telekinesis, linked to above...?
Does that wipe the smile off your face?    tongue.gif




#43    AlexG

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 01:03 PM

bee on Oct 28 2008, 07:25 AM, said:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf



http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-142874.html





So....do you think that Kalugina had telekinesis ability?

Also....have you looked at the recently released (2004) military documents, about telekinesis, linked to above...?
Does that wipe the smile off your face?    tongue.gif


The CIA and the military have done many studies on many types of psychic phenomena.  None of them worked.  Including telekinesis.   As for the teleportation 'study', it' a theoretical paper on the possible physics behind some of the outre possibilities in the universe.

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#44    The One Who Is

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:57 PM

bee on Oct 28 2008, 06:25 AM, said:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf



http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-142874.html





So....do you think that Kalugina had telekinesis ability?

Also....have you looked at the recently released (2004) military documents, about telekinesis, linked to above...?
Does that wipe the smile off your face?    tongue.gif

Ooh, I've read those documents before. Nice ideas they had there.

These are my favorite parts:

Quote

At present, none of the theoretical concepts explored in this chapter have been brought to a level of technical maturity, where it becomes meaningful to ascertain whether any form of e-Teleportation is theoretically possible between extra space dimensions and different or parallel universes/spaces. However, there is the exception that traversable wormholes (three- and higher-dimensional) provide a solid physics principle for the implementation of teleportation between parallel universes/spaces.


They're not even at the level where they can determine if it's theoretically possible.

Quote

We will need a physics theory of consciousness and psychotronics, along with more experimental data, in order to test the hypothesis in Section 5.1.1 and discover the physical mechanisms that lay behind the psychotronic manipulation of matter.


They're not even beyond hypotheses yet. And it was mostly about teleportation, mostly involving physics, not the paranormal TK that the debate was about.

Still, at least it isn't "chakras, chakras, chakras."

tongue.gif

Edited for clarification before someone asks me to.  laugh.gif

Edited by The One Who Is, 28 October 2008 - 03:59 PM.

In various primitive cultures, it was believed that the brain served only to cool the body, being completely unrelated to thought. This is true only in certain people.

#45    Shadowmalerenamon

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:05 PM

If telekinesis exists, then it would be logical that there is a science behind it right?

Edited by Knight of the Twilight, 28 October 2008 - 05:05 PM.

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