[UM-Debate-Bot]

lil gremlin vs draconic chronicler

This is a formal 1 vs 1 debate, full details on how the debate system works can be found in our Debates FAQ. The debate will begin with an introductory opening post from each participant followed by 8 body posts and finally a conclusion.

The computer has randomly chosen lil gremlin to post first.

lil gremlin is arguing against the quoted statement, re: the beliefs of early man

draconic chronicler is arguing in favour of the same

Once the debate is complete the thread will be open to member comments.

[lil gremlin]

I apologise if people find the title and arguing points stated so far confusing, its my first debate here and i rushed it a bit.

the quoted statement mentioned above is one frequently used by DC, most recently in a dragon thread in the cryptozoology board...it was too long to use as a title statement.

so here it is....

DC

Quote

An entire world of early man considered giant flying reptiles that we call dragons today once were their gods. This i not my speculation, it is fact.

Introduction.

I will be debating against the assertion that humans have universally witnessed the same flying, quadrupedal reptile, and worshipped them as their gods.
DC would argue that not only did people witness the same creature, but those that worshiped them housed and fed them, took rides into the sky on them,were 'civilised'and protected by them, and followed them around on their nomadic travels.

For me to successfully achieve this i need to demonstrate that the creatures, sometimes now labelled dragons, come in a variety of forms; and do not universally share one root in a single real creature.
If cultures around the world were so familiar with six limbed, flying reptiles of gigantic size, superior intelligence, immortality etc, why is it that none of these cultures accurately represented them the way they often accurately represented other animals? And why would these representations vary so considerably?

Ill begin by defining 'dragon', as the ancient greeks originally conceived it, and amongst other things ill move on from there to discuss the evolution of the 'western' and 'eastern' dragons as they are now, and then to compare and contrast DC's 'universal dragon' model with those mythical creatures labelled dragon from a number of cultures.

For DC to successfully defend his statement he needs to demonstrate, as a fact and not speculation, that six limbed (thats 4 legs and 2 wings) dragons are universally evident, and that they were worshiped as gods by the people that witnessed them, as his statement claims.

edit: to clarify, whilst DC did not make clear in his statement that the 'flying reptiles' were six limbed, his 'theory' does make it clear that they were, like the mushushu (sumerian) composite creature. This debate takes this 'form' of dragon to be the type he refers to as the universal origin of the myth.

This post has been edited by lil gremlin: 13 October 2008 - 02:54 PM

[Saru]

DC it's your turn to post an introduction in this debate.

[draconic chronicler]

Saru on Oct 23 2008, 04:42 AM, said:

DC it's your turn to post an introduction in this debate.

(Sorry for the delay Saru, it wa just pointed out to me today where the debate section was. I though it might have been an offshoot of each forum.)

Now, my response:

The anthropologist David E. Jones in his book "An Instinct for Dragons" described here

http://en.wikipedia....nct_for_Dragons

Dr. Jones has already made an excellent case that cultures all over the world acknowledged the existence of reptilian 'dragons' characterised by long sinuous necks, sharp teeth, wings and clawed feet. To my knowledge, even his detractors, also anthropologists and experts on world mythology do not dispute the fact of this widespread belief in remarkably similar dragon.

L'l Gremlin's argument then, actually disputes the findings of a lettered anthropologist with better access to archaeological collections and obscure tales of dragon mythlogy probbly unknown access to eithr lil Gremlin or myself.

I will point out now however, that Dr. Jones never states that these long necked, winged, sharp toothed, claw footed reptiles actually existed. Instead he believes the are 'composites' of the creatures primates feared the most..... birds of prey, large serpents, crocodiles and felines.

I happen to disagree with Dr. Jones that these universal dragons are mere composites of mankindds fears becasue of the multitude of accounts of them by intellectuals in all of the most advanced human cultures of the ancient and medieval worlds.

But the fact remains that Dr. Jones is correct, winged, scaled covered, long necked, claw footed dragons were believed by humans all over the world, and still are acnowledged in most of the worlds great religions practiced by billions of people.

So what is Lil Gremlin actually trying to say? That these dragons cannot be real becasue they are not exactly alike in every artistic depiction?

This is nonsense. Something as mundance as a horse is often depicted differently even in the same time and place by different artists. Now consider a creature that the original accounts state is rare and a sometimes predator of man. How many artisans would actually see the creature in life, or rather base their art on the descriptions of others, or from sightings from long distances where details of the creature remains obsure. Also, both east and west, the forms of dragons or any other creature are often distorted to suit the object being decorated. Thus, in China, we see both dragons with short winged bodies like the dragons depicted in the West, as well as very elongated dragons so stylized that we see the wings disappear, and the limbs reduced to almost being vestigial.

Yet in virtually every culture we do see dragons which basically have the universal characteristic noted by Dr. Jones, wings, serpentine head and neck, and clawed limbs. And understand too, that today we have only a fraction of the orignal images, artifacts and literature from these ancient cultures.

The fact some artists depict dragons with only two feet instead of four is probably because the artist in question may have never seen a dragon up close, which according to most worldwide accounts, can be a very hazardous endeavor. I do not know what Lil Gremlin hopes to even 'debate'. Does he presume to ignore the artifactual and literary evidence compiled by a real athropologist for more knowledgable on this subject than him? Yes, winged, claw footed , serpentine necked, scaled dragons were acknoledged all over the world by ancient man.

As for being universal gods, I did not state this. I said the belief in dragons was virtually universal, as does Dr. Jones, but that they were only acknowledged as gods by the cultures the dragons 'adopted' and nurtured. On the contrary, they were merely regarded as fearsome predators in cultures where the dragons perhaps thought the humans in question were fit only to be prey. Thus, we see dragons regarded as gods or assistants to Gods in advanced cultures, yet simply as monsters in backward, barbarian cultures such as the Germanic peoples of northern Europe. However, it is probable that their anthropormorhic gods, were very likely dragon gods too, in their distant past.

[lil gremlin]

instinct for dragons by d.e.jones is interesting, but Paul Jordan-Smith's review has him bang to rights, and many of his criticisms can be applied to DC's 'theory'.

http://findarticles....204/ai_n9025632

just to point out the inconsistancy with DC's use of Jones.,,
He claims i disagree with Jones, while he is in agreement with him on the issue of the ubiquity of Dragons.
I have never disputed the idea that creatures, commonly called 'dragons'by us, can be found in most cultures.That would be silly.

DC goes on to disagree himself with this 'man of letters' over the real issue...the explaination of their origin. "

Quote

"I happen to disagree with Dr. Jones that these universal dragons are mere composites of mankindds fears becasue of the multitude of accounts of them by intellectuals in all of the most advanced human cultures of the ancient and medieval worlds."

why?....'because of the multitude of accounts of them by intellectuals in all of the most advanced human cultures of the ancient and medieval worlds'??????

None of the 'intellectuals' ever saw one....never saw a big quadrupedal and winged reptilian, immortal, talking,creature of superior intellect and supernatural powers.
ever.

"

Quote

But the fact remains that Dr. Jones is correct, winged, scaled covered, long necked, claw footed dragons were believed by humans all over the world, and still are acnowledged in most of the worlds great religions practiced by billions of people."

That's like saying that since pyramids can be found in many cultures that there had to be one source, one mythical proto-pyramid with its culture which spread....
I sympathise completely with jordan-smith's sentiments.

Quote

"So what is Lil Gremlin actually trying to say? That these dragons cannot be real becasue they are not exactly alike in every artistic depiction?""

well, pretty much.

Quote

"Now consider a creature that the original accounts state is rare and a sometimes predator of man. How many artisans would actually see the creature in life, or rather base their art on the descriptions of others, or from sightings from long distances where details of the creature remains obsure."

perhaps those artisans should have consulted the intellectuals that you mentioned....the ones that all describe the same creature?

The differences in the various creatures commonly called dragons by us go beyond stylistics.
The one interesting thing you appreciate in this passage is the evolution of the image of the dragon.
Its evolution as a concept and a cultural phenomenon can often demonstrated by its representation visually, in writing and other cultural expressions.

Quote

""I do not know what Lil Gremlin hopes to even 'debate'""

i thought i made that clear in the intro.
dont bother to go back and read it here's the nuts and bolts of it...
I cut and pasted a quote from you:-

""An entire world of early man considered giant flying reptiles that we call dragons today once were their gods. This i not my speculation, it is fact.""

I say you speculate. And present these speculations as fact....which is a no no unless your'e writing fiction.

but then you said...

""As for being universal gods, I did not state this.""

sounded exactly like you did to me(see above).....and that its not speculation, its fact!

anyway what you propose implies that everyone saw them in one capacity or another.I had already taken this into account...

""I will be debating against the assertion that humans have universally witnessed the same flying, quadrupedal reptile, and worshipped them as their gods.
DC would argue that not only did people witness the same creature, but those that worshiped them housed and fed them, took rides into the sky on them,were 'civilised'and protected by them, and followed them around on their nomadic travels.
""

I suggest that a closer look at specific cultures will highlight the differences between dragons rather than reinforce your speculations.

So

The Greeks

The greeks coined the name 'drakon'....

The first type of Greek dragon was the Dracon whose name was derived from the Greek words "drakein" and "derkomai" meaning "to see clearly" or "gaze sharply." It was essentially just a giant serpent which was sometimes equipped with rows of sharp teeth, deadly poison or multiple heads. In myth the beast usually guarded a sacred spring, grove or golden treasure. Our own word "dragon" derives from the creature's name.

If there is a single origin for the dragon, this is it.....a big mythical snake.

but the term became a loose one, relating to any exotic serpent or reptile the greeks heard stories about, some of these stories were noted by Pliny, copied from an earlier source.

The Archaic and early-Classical Greeks attached this word to mythical snakes.....no wings or limbs.....

The Hellenistic period facilitated the mixing of cultural ideas and concepts from egypt and the east, it is only in this period that dragons aquired limbs and wings in a way that was acceptable to mainland greeks.

The evolution of dragon forms continued, and by the time of the Roman period the dragon owed as much to the sumerian mushushu in terms of appearance as it did to the greek dragon.

late classical

and thats not too early...

The winged snakes related by herodotus are not called drakones by the greeks, but rather ophies pteretos or ophies amphipterotoi.
"serpents with 2 pairs of wings".


Central to these Greek dragon myths are not the dragons themselves, but their slayers.....

It seems that Drakon was more of a job description, specifically refering to mythical snakes, but more loosely to a variety of fantastical creatures.


Campe vs Zeus
Chimaera vs Bellerophon
Colchian vs Jason
Cychreides vs Cychreus
Echidna vs Argus
Ethiopian vs Perseus
Hesperian vs Herakles
Hydra vs Herakles
Ismenian vs Cadmus
Maeonian Vs Herakles
Maeonian vs Damasen
Nemean vs The Seven
Poene vs Coroebus
Python vs Apollo
Rhodian vs Phorbas
Sybaris vs Eurybarus
Thespian vs Menestratus
Trojan vs Herakles


because i can only post a few images, here are a few select ones from Theoi.com to illustrate my point.......
.........
kadmus and the ismenian dragon

ca 550-540 BC late archaic period


ca560-550BC Archaic period.


345-335 BC late classical

medea



ca. 400BC late classical....
note the dragons fly and draw the chariot around the sky, but no wings nor limbs.


late classical....still no wings


330-310 BC
late classical to Early Hellenistic......still no wings....


Only in the Hellenistic and later Imperial Roman Period do they aquire wings to explain their flight.



................


so in brief conclusion, here we have the Greeks....they coined the term drakon, which referred to limbless giant mythical snakes,

And they didnt worship them as gods.

this alone disproves DC's 'factual' speculation right there.

Edited to add/remove images due to post restrictions on the number of images. There are plenty more to support my point.

This post has been edited by lil gremlin: 11 November 2008 - 12:17 AM

[draconic chronicler]

So what has Lil Gremlin shown us in his last post? That another anthropologist disagrees with Jone's theory? I do too. The key point is that this anthropologist doesn't dispute the fact that large, reptilian, flying creatures were believed in by cultures all over the world with seemingly very little contact between them, such as beificient dragon/flying serpent dieties with perceived, weather controlling abilites prevalent in areas as geographiclly distant as China and Mesoamerica. And I do not disagree with this either, and nor does lil Gremlin as he admits.

The title of this debate in itself, created by Lil Gremlin is really undebatable in the first place, because the belief in gods themselves, can be considered 'a myth' until concrete proof of such entities comes to light.

The subject of this particular segment then, seems to really be, "did the ancient Greeks worship big snakes that are portrayed on their ceramics usually in the act of being killed by a hero.

And my reply would be "no". Nor do I believe these "big snakes" are the large, flying, intelligent reptiles that are popularly referred to as 'dragons' today. None of the snakes depicted in this art appear any larger than pythons I have kept as pets, and killing one would not be a very impressive feat. Perhaps some of these stories are based on real incidents of people killing a large example of the largest snake that occurs in Greece, a kind of rat snake (Elaphe) called the Aesculope (sic) snake that became household pets throughout the classical world and brought them far out of their natural range to area of Germany once uncer Roman control.

Does the fact the Greeks sometimes referred to some larger snakes as 'drakons' mean they are the intelligent, flying dragons that anthropologists admit were a universal human belief? No.

The reason we use the word dragon for these creatures in the western world is due to the dragons mentioned in the Bible and later Christian literature, and here, it is not a "big snake", but a proper, semetic winged reptilian quadreped. We know this from both literature and the rare cases when living animals are depicts in Jewish art, such as the quadrepedal, long necked dragons depicted on the holiest surviving object of temple furniture after the loss of the Ark of the Covenant, this being the menorah lampstand, seen depicted with probable photographic accuracy on the Arch of Titus. We also know that the Judao Christian 'dragon' is not a mere snake because they are described with both arms, legs, and wings such as a dragon who is described sawing the great stone blocks to build the temple, in the Testament of Solomon, a scripture that saw use among Jews and Christians that was not included in the Bible we know today.

But did the Greeks acknowledge a true long necked, winged, talon equipped proper dragon as Dr. Jones maintains is a universal human belief?

The answer is yes, though by a different name, though over the years, the word drakon became associated with them as well.

This is Ketos, daughter of a God and Goddess, and therefore a goddess in her own right. Ketos is usually depicted with a scaly reptilain body, a snouted with with sharp teeth, large clawed forearms, a long reptilan neck and sinuous tail, and often, wings as well. Although originally this was a single deity, later story had her being killed by other gods and heroes, over and over again. This does not change the fact however, that this creature which all the world looks like a dragon to any casual observer, IS in fact a Greek Goddess, being the offspring of a Greek God and Goddess. This documation is common knowledge and has been posted recently in the Crypto forum, flying serpents thread, and need not be repeated here. I will post below a fairly typical image of Ketos from the Greco Roman era which I believe most people would recognize as a 'dragon'.

But did the Greeks ever worship this dragon Goddess? I cannot prove that they did, nor can Grem prove they did not. But it is a fact they ACKNOWLEDGED this dragon goddess as the offspring of a higher God and Goddess. I would not be surprised if sailors did try to placate her with sacrifices, for there are accounts of this creature/goddess attacking ships, and even the repected Roman naturalist and Naval Admiral, described ways in which the Roman Navy (presumeably since he commanded a fleet), did employ to keep Ketos, and perhaps her draconic offspring from attacking ships.

While I have already made the point that Greeks therefore had at least one "dragon' Goddess, I believe the major gods as a whole probably originated from similar gods from Sumeria that actually were referred to as "great serpent dragons of heaven". Grem should know that some scholars have connected these early storm gods, like the 'dragon' Enlil to the storm controlling, lightning bolt throwing Zeus, who perhaps not by coincidence, could change his form into a hellentistic (therefore possibly winged) Drakon and impregnated Alexander the Great's mother Olympias according to ancient legends that attempted to explain why Alexander was so "great". The belief that Gods could assume both human and dragon forms is not a new one. An ancient Babylonian hymn describes one form of Ea, brother of the storm dragon Enlil in his terrifying reptilian form, which included a serpentine head with sharp teeth, and claw footed feet, thus dismissing the notion this was simply a 'big snake'.

Thus not only was there a Greek goddess (Ketos) that always looked like the popular conception of a dragon, but the head of all Greek Gods, Zeus himself, could change at will from a human form to a dragon. The Greeks probably imagine he was in the dragon form, when he swallowed up his children whole, an act we do not associate with the human form. And unless I am mistaken, and I do not think I am, the ancient Greeks DID worship Zeus. So I think I win this round Grem. Feel free to pick another ancient culture, and tell us there were no dragon gods (or goddesses).

Attached File(s)

•  thumbZ33_9B.jpg (5.38K)
  Number of downloads: 19

This post has been edited by draconic chronicler: 27 November 2008 - 03:16 PM

[aquatus1]

This is a formal debate. You are advised to take it with the seriousness it merits.

[lil gremlin]

Your argument is absurd dc, following no real logic.

The greeks invented the concept 'dragon' it was a big mythical snake'.

Zeus was not a dragon;he never visited Alexander the Great's mum as one....there was a political slur against him that Zeus visited Olympia by possessing one of her existing pet snakes....and then in the Dark Ages in the Romance of Alexander (a most imaginative collection of works) that Nectanebo (not Zeus) came to her in the form of a snake/dragon, which in later depictions of the scene, aquired wings and limbs to match the early medieval conceptions of dragons.
it never happened....and not until well into the christian era did anybody think any different.

Zeus was not Enlil,

Enlil was never a dragon. (either in the greek sense 'big mythical snake' or in the DC sense.....quadrupedal, winged etc.)

Ketos was not a goddess. period. She was a sea monster commanded by the gods. She was never worshiped, and offerings for safe passage over water (as well as often on land) were given to poseidon.....NOT ketos.
Despite her parentage Ketos was not a goddess, and was never considered as such........she was draconic in form (wing-like fins) only after the influence of the east in Hellenistic times.

The Greeks NEVER EVER worshiped dragons. Either when they were big snakes, or when....after Alexander they evolved in depictions along eastern lines.


Your speculation should not be dressed as fact...because it is as far removed from fact as you can get without a yellow bricked road.

So your previous post was a grand waste of time, and in consequence this reply is uneccesarily taking up space.
if you want me to provide an explaination of any of the above, please just ask.
if you would like to refute any of it, feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.
if you cannot refute it then the point should carry, and you should conceed that the Greeks never worshiped dragons, and further that your initial statement (contained in my intro) was wrong.


xxxxx



i was planning on moving to discuss another culture to show how they too never worshiped dragons, and that they inherited their dragons from conquered peoples....but i think that ive adequately disproved DC's statement already; instead, for the moment, id like to stick with Greek culture and await DC's response.

This post has been edited by lil gremlin: 05 February 2009 - 12:16 AM

[draconic chronicler]

You have disproved nohing Grem. Since we cannot prove or disprove any Gods are real, all I have to do to win this debate is prove that humans believed in "dragon gods", and this would be acknowledged by every anthropologist before this discussion was even begun, so your position is really quite hopeless.

As for Ketos, authorative sources have stated that this classical Sea Dragon was the daughter of two recognized gods. This makes her a goddess, and people believed she was real and that she produced others of her kind. You cannot say whe was never worshipped because our information of those times is incomplete. We do know that even the greatest minds of those times acknowledged these creatures existed. Anyone who saw one probably acknowledged it as a 'god' as dragons had been regarded for centuries, and in every corner of the world.

And as for Zeus, the story that he impregnated Olympias in the form of a Drakon was a genuine attempt by early chroniclers as to why Alexancder seemed to be divine. What inspired the story? Her mother had a pet giant snake? Somebody saw a Drakon fly over her house. We do not know, but even Alexander ha his concerns, which is why he braved the dangers of the Sahara to consult the oracle at Siwa Oasis.

Modern people do not believe it, but ancient people came to Alexander's temples for genuine worship. Some authorities have stated that Alexander himself may have believed he was divine and that the story of his mother coupling with a drakon was true.

Now if Zeus could turn into a Drakon, as millions in the ancient world undoubtedly believed, then they worshipped a God that at times, WAS a Drakon. A very much flesh and blood drakon, I would add, with functional reproductiive organs.

Now do you really want to move on to Sumeria, China, or Mesopotamia where there unquestionably were beliefs in "dragon gods" as well?

This post has been edited by draconic chronicler: 06 February 2009 - 01:21 PM

[lil gremlin]

Quote

You have disproved nohing Grem. Since we cannot prove or disprove any Gods are real, all I have to do to win this debate is prove that humans believed in "dragon gods", and this would be acknowledged by every anthropologist before this discussion was even begun, so your position is really quite hopeless.

sorry DC you seem to have lost your bearings with this discussion, please refer to your statement quoted in my early post....to support your statement you have to demonstrate dragons in every culture as being worshiped.
Im focussing on just one at the moment, those that came up with the concept dragon....the Greeks.

They did not worship dragons.
Ketos was not a goddess despite your ill-informed misconception......Gaia had many other offspring, were they also gods and goddesses? or did they fight against the gods in the Titanomachy?
Ketos was not a goddess, and was never worshiped.

you cannot find a single shred of evidence to support the assertion that ketos was a goddess, and was worshiped.....its all your badly thought out speculation.
either present evidence to prove otherwise or drop the point.

Quote

And as for Zeus, the story that he impregnated Olympias in the form of a Drakon was a genuine attempt by early chroniclers as to why Alexancder seemed to be divine. What inspired the story? Her mother had a pet giant snake? Somebody saw a Drakon fly over her house. We do not know, but even Alexander ha his concerns, which is why he braved the dangers of the Sahara to consult the oracle at Siwa Oasis.

please provide sources for this, sources that prove that Zeus turned into a dragon to impregnate Olympias.
(remember that this is a formal debate, so dont worm out of it...failure to provide evidence to support your claim will result in you losing the point....and looking silly)

"we do not know"?????? ofcourse we do. We have enough information about this to form a 'most likely' conclusion....we can see how the initial slur on Olympias and Alexander was turned around, how it was expanded on, and how it evolved into a fantastical romantic tale...there are numerous sources.....but your evidence first sir.

Quote

Now if Zeus could turn into a Drakon, as millions in the ancient world undoubtedly believed, then they worshipped a God that at times, WAS a Drakon. A very much flesh and blood drakon, I would add, with functional reproductiive organs.

what a cop out!!!
you realise that im right, that Zeus was not a Drakon....and so now your trying to worm it around to ....'well he could turn into one sometimes if he liked....so by proxy they were worshipping a dragon'

not so fast DC......

he was not a dragon.
could he turn into one?......possibly if he wanted, he was the head honcho god, he could turn himself into anything.....
if he did ever turn into a dragon in the beliefs of the Greeks, it would look like all the other pre-hellenistic drakones.....A Big Mythical Snake.

You appear to be conceeding that Zeus was not really a dragon, that he could only assume the semblance of one......this does not support your earlier statement (quoted in my first post).


the thing is, i dont need to explore other cultures....i just need to show (as i have) that 1 culture did not worship them. The greeks had them, heck they made them up, but did not worship them. Dragons were a greek concept that evolved.....influenced by eastern cultures.
there was no greek dragon god/goddess....none were worshiped as such.

provide evidence dc.

This post has been edited by lil gremlin: 06 February 2009 - 02:00 PM

[draconic chronicler]

Why of course you want to stick with the Greek Gods. Their connection to mankind's universal dragon gods is more tenuous because these beliefs are relatively mdern compared to hose of say Mesopotamia or China. The longer man distances himself from his origins, then these beliefs are les and less prevalent in his religions. But the link is still there as I have clearly shown.

Scholars stilll see similarities between them and the gods from Sumeria, the cradle of Civilization. Among them are storm gods, which share close likenessess with Zeus and among these similarities are the features of other dragon gods like controlling the weather, and the ability to assume a human form, traits of dragons gods in such far flung regions as Mesoamerica, Mesopotamia and China.

So what we see in Zeus, and the Greek gods in general is that by this the human worshipper envisioned not a 'dragon' that can turn into a man-god, but a man-god that can turn into a dragon. But the myths themselves give hints that suggest than centuries before these stories were written down, these gods, like those of the more ancient cultures, were originally 'dragons'.

For example, Zeus's mother can also turn into a Drakon, and one story speaks of them copulating together in this form.

Zeus ao impregnates other gods in the form, such as Pershphone, in addition to the beliefs he used this form to impregnate human women such as Olympias.

Zeus and other gods, though envisioned in humanoid forms in these latest beliefs, still do things that are imposible for thi form hough possibvle in a reptilian form. For example, Zeus and other gods swallow WHOLE both consorts and offsrping, and while this seem illogical for human-form gods, if these stories began with gods that were "serpent-dragons" such feats would seem more plausible.

After centuries of oral tradition, the universal serpent-dragon gods of Greec gradually became more and more human, with only these small clues betraying their reptilian origins.

We can see this same process repeated in the even more recent Christian theology. Originally, the highest heavenly creatures next to what some scholars also denote was a "serpent-dragon" god, are winged serpent seraphim, yet as the idea of reptilian deities who gradually have refashioned their gods more and more humanlike, we now see the Seraphim as humanoids with swan wings.

The "quais-serpent-dragon" deities of Greece, and early Christianity show us the evoution of have our gods have evolved from serpent dragons best remembered in China and Mesoamerica to "wizened humans" "created in image."

[lil gremlin]

so what you are saying then is that you cannot find any proof. No quadrupedal winged reptile Greek gods....

you cannot back-up your earlier statement.....

Quote

An entire world of early man considered giant flying reptiles that we call dragons today once were their gods. This i not my speculation, it is fact.

and all you are left with (contrary to your statement) is speculation.

end of.

I have demonstrated that the Greeks, the very folk who invented the concept 'drakon' did not envisage them as quadrupedal, winged, gigantic beasties; but as big mythical snakes. And they did not worship any of them.

That was enough to show your statement for the fallacy it is.

I know that at later stages the Greeks adopted more eastern stylistics, and the drakon evolved conceptually (either backwards or forwards im not sure) to have 4 legs, wings etc. This shows them for the constructs of the imagination that they are.

As far as im concerned- job done.

[draconic chronicler]

lil gremlin on Feb 8 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

so what you are saying then is that you cannot find any proof. No quadrupedal winged reptile Greek gods....

you cannot back-up your earlier statement.....


and all you are left with (contrary to your statement) is speculation.

end of.

I have demonstrated that the Greeks, the very folk who invented the concept 'drakon' did not envisage them as quadrupedal, winged, gigantic beasties; but as big mythical snakes. And they did not worship any of them.

That was enough to show your statement for the fallacy it is.

I know that at later stages the Greeks adopted more eastern stylistics, and the drakon evolved conceptually (either backwards or forwards im not sure) to have 4 legs, wings etc. This shows them for the constructs of the imagination that they are.

As far as im concerned- job done.

The greeks myths evolved considerably over the centuries. We know from early pottery that the Jason story was completely different. The Drakon actually devours Jason and he dies. Athena asks the drakon to regurgitate his body and she restores him to life. This was later changed into an adventure story where the Drakon is put to sleep by a witch, or in Anglo Saxon tradition, he slays the Drakon.

But we do know the Greek myths have the highest gods turning into drakons for such important things as fighting each other (Zeus vs. his mother Rhea), and lovemaking (Persephone, Rhea, Olympios, etc). This suggests that they were Drakons "first", but human worshippers were more comfortable depicting them in their human form. Archosaur has made some good observations in this light.

The fact that the Greek gods changed into drakons for the most important things (fighting each other and love making), and the fact they swallowed their offspring and mates alive as reptiles are capable of doing, and the fact serpents appeared on almost every houshold shrine, and were given offerings, all suggest that originally, the gods were drakons that could assume a human form, exactly like what was believed of the Mesopotamian, and Chinese dragon gods, that could assume a human form.

Just as a Mushushu dragon stands next to Marduk as a human god (to show his father was the Great Ushumgal/dragon god Enki, a giant Drakon was portrayed next to Athena, probably to also show she was the offstpring of the great Drakon Zeus.

There is a household Greek Shrine, which I believe is in the National Museum at Athens. I have a cast of it. It portrays a bearded Drakon and the original description describes it as Zeus. This image of zeus as a Drakon would be venerated. It is an idol.

I am afraid this is another "chicken or the egg" matter as to what came first: A dragon god who could take on a human appearance, or a humanoid form god that could take on a Drakon appearance. No one will really know for sure, but the evidence of other ancient cultures for which we do have written records show that the dragons came first.

As everyone can see, I have very good evidence to base my theory on. You cannot disprove it. The authentic artifacts prove I am probably right. And it doesn't matter if the Greeks at this time imagined the worldwide dragons as bearded snakes because the winged dragons were no longer seen, or mistaken for gryphons. Just as the Chinese dragons would lose their wings over time and look much like serpents.

The point, is that early man all over the world had reptilian deities, that can be considered "dragons" and when there is an idol plaque of a bearded drakon and the original inscription says "This is Zeus", then YES, the Greeks worshipped Drakons. And in a second, uninscribed plaque that I have linked below, we see Greeks worshipping a Drakon, which archaeologists state is ZEUS. So you see, Grem, the truth is caved in stone (quite literally, in fact).

Attached File(s)

•  serpenteZEUS_jp5.jpg (27.44K)
  Number of downloads: 9

This post has been edited by draconic chronicler: 16 February 2009 - 01:57 PM

[lil gremlin]

draconic chronicler on Feb 16 2009, 01:37 PM, said:

The greeks myths evolved considerably over the centuries. We know from early pottery that the Jason story was completely different. The Drakon actually devours Jason and he dies. Athena asks the drakon to regurgitate his body and she restores him to life. This was later changed into an adventure story where the Drakon is put to sleep by a witch, or in Anglo Saxon tradition, he slays the Drakon.

But we do know the Greek myths have the highest gods turning into drakons for such important things as fighting each other (Zeus vs. his mother Rhea), and lovemaking (Persephone, Rhea, Olympios, etc). This suggests that they were Drakons "first", but human worshippers were more comfortable depicting them in their human form. Archosaur has made some good observations in this light.

The fact that the Greek gods changed into drakons for the most important things (fighting each other and love making), and the fact they swallowed their offspring and mates alive as reptiles are capable of doing, and the fact serpents appeared on almost every houshold shrine, and were given offerings, all suggest that originally, the gods were drakons that could assume a human form, exactly like what was believed of the Mesopotamian, and Chinese dragon gods, that could assume a human form.

Just as a Mushushu dragon stands next to Marduk as a human god (to show his father was the Great Ushumgal/dragon god Enki, a giant Drakon was portrayed next to Athena, probably to also show she was the offstpring of the great Drakon Zeus.

There is a household Greek Shrine, which I believe is in the National Museum at Athens. I have a cast of it. It portrays a bearded Drakon and the original description describes it as Zeus. This image of zeus as a Drakon would be venerated. It is an idol.

I am afraid this is another "chicken or the egg" matter as to what came first: A dragon god who could take on a human appearance, or a humanoid form god that could take on a Drakon appearance. No one will really know for sure, but the evidence of other ancient cultures for which we do have written records show that the dragons came first.

As everyone can see, I have very good evidence to base my theory on. You cannot disprove it. The authentic artifacts prove I am probably right. And it doesn't matter if the Greeks at this time imagined the worldwide dragons as bearded snakes because the winged dragons were no longer seen, or mistaken for gryphons. Just as the Chinese dragons would lose their wings over time and look much like serpents.

The point, is that early man all over the world had reptilian deities, and when there is an idol plaque of a bearded drakon and the original inscription says "This is Zeus", then YES, the Greeks worshipped Drakons. The answer is caved in stone (quite literally, in fact).

please provide the sources for this information for examination....

but these early artifacts come from the bronze age??? when dragons were in close contact with the greeks?
why then are they wingless snakes??

There are no examples of quadrupedal winged drakones from before late classical/hellenistic times in mainstream greek culture. if there are please provide them or conceed that they were big mythical snakes.

Gryphons are composite mythical creatures, they are evidenced in the bronze age, in Maecenean and Minoan culture .... exactly when you say the dragons were seen daily.....if so how did they get depictions so wrong when their other natural representations are so accurate?
why? because they are not real creatures....

Im sure you will not provide the relevent source material, so im happy to conclude this and have the thread opened to others.....unless you actually deliver

p.s. please include in that a pic of Athena and her drakon, a quadrupedal winged one pls.

This post has been edited by lil gremlin: 16 February 2009 - 05:13 PM

[draconic chronicler]

lil gremlin on Feb 16 2009, 07:58 AM, said:

please provide the sources for this information for examination....

but these early artifacts come from the bronze age??? when dragons were in close contact with the greeks?
why then are they wingless snakes??

There are no examples of quadrupedal winged drakones from before late classical/hellenistic times in mainstream greek culture. if there are please provide them or conceed that they were big mythical snakes.

Gryphons are composite mythical creatures, they are evidenced in the bronze age, in Maecenean and Minoan culture .... exactly when you say the dragons were seen daily.....if so how did they get depictions so wrong when their other natural representations are so accurate?
why? because they are not real creatures....

Im sure you will not provide the relevent source material, so im happy to conclude this and have the thread opened to others.....unless you actually deliver

p.s. please include in that a pic of Athena and her drakon, a quadrupedal winged one pls.

Actually, Grem, you responded before I could post the link to the original artifact that actually depicts GREEKS WORSHIPPING ZEUS AS A DRAKON.

http://images.google...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

And the captions state: "This votive tablet from Piraeus shows the serpent as the Ollympian Zeus Meilichios"

Some belief Meilichios is an earlier God 'absorbed' by Zeus, just as Marduk absorbed eerlier gods, but the fact remains that ancient Greeks worshipped a God in the form of a Drakon.

Why are the earlier depictions of Drakons only Serpents? This is probably a confusion with the depictions of Gryphons. From any distance, a gryphon looks like a Mushrushu/Bixie/Western Quadrepedal dragon. In fact, when depiected in color, the ancient greeks depicted them green, and some have belly scutes like a serpent and spines on their backs.

But the reason people thought these were different animals is the discovery of protoceratopes skulls with their beaks. They saw these skull, and also the flying 'green' dragons, and assumed these must be a clawed, eagle beaked monster.

But the bottom line is that the Greeks did worship Gods that were Drakons. In fact, Dionysus was yet another God supposedly BORN as a Drakon, that would later transform into a human.

So this substantiates the fact that this god, and perhaps others were believed to be DRAKONS first, and humanoid gods later on.

So when it comes to the Greeks, I am correct. But if you wish to go on to another culture, please feel free to do so.

This post has been edited by draconic chronicler: 16 February 2009 - 05:37 PM