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Dragons, myth and not universal gods


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#16    The Gremlin

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Posted 16 February 2009 - 05:32 PM

draconic chronicler on Feb 16 2009, 05:19 PM, said:

Actually, Grem, you responded before I could post the link to the original artifact that actually depicts GREEKS WORSHIPPING ZEUS AS DRAKON.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

And the captions state:

linked-image

this is zeus meilichios, an aspect of zeus.....a cthonic aspect....and he is here a big wingless, limbless snake.
Using wiki saved some time here, essentially Zeus aquired the epithet after supplanting an earlier orphic daemon.

A Snake, not a drakon.
a daemon not a god
propitiated rather than worshiped.

i have never disputed orphism and the importance of snakes in Greek religious ritual.....but this is certainly not a quadrupedal dragon.

if you have no idea what is meant by Zeus Meilichios
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meilichios

Quote

As Zeus Meilichios, the Olympian of Greek mythology subsumed as an attributive epithet an earlier chthonic daimon, Meilichios, who was propitiated in Athens by archaic rituals, as Jane Ellen Harrison demonstrated in detail in Prolegomena to the Study of Greek Religion (1903). In the course of examining the archaic aspects of the Diasia festival, the greatest Athenian festival accorded Zeus, she demonstrated that it had been superimposed upon an earlier propitiatory ceremony.

"Meilichios", the "Easy-to-be-entreated", the gracious, accessible one, was the euphemistic aspect of Maimaktes the "raging" one, thirsty for blood (Harrison, p. 17).[1]

Explicitly inscribed votive reliefs show that Meilichios was figured in the form of a serpent, who might be invoked as a kind of Ploutos, bringer of wealth. He had some of the avenging and fearful character of an Erynis, for Pausanias saw near the River Cephissus "an ancient altar of Zeus Meilichios; on it Theseus received purification from the descendants of Phytalos after he after he had slain among other robbers Sinis, who was related to himself". Meilichios' sacrifice was a holocaust, which was wholly consumed in fire and not shared by the votaries, "a dread renunciation to a dreadful power" (Harrison, p. 16), in nocturnal rites performed in an atmosphere of "chilly gloom" (Harrison), that was rendered in Greek as stygiotes.

Zeus tended to obscure the earlier figure he had supplanted. An Athenian of the fifth century would likely have conceived Zeus Meilichios as Zeus-Hades, Zeus "in his chthonic aspect".



img004.gif
http://www.greekreligion.org/ZeusMPres/sld004.htm

img005.gif
http://www.greekreligion.org/ZeusMPres/sld005.htm


its a bit like a corporate takeover....

its also something i pointed out to both you and archie earlier, and while he saw the reason of it, you thought it was nonsense!

Griffins always painted Green????

linked-image

This is from the throne room at knossos. it is a gryphon.....without wings....and its not green......

It dates from a time where you say these quadrupedal winged reptiles lived side by side with humans. Are you sure later greeks 'forgot' how their earlier 'gods' looked, thus representing them as  both big mythical snakes and composite beasties???

How do you 'explain' this?


p.s. please see these.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios
http://en.wikipedia....phism_(religion)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithet
i sure am getting my money's worth at wiki today.

Edited by lil gremlin, 17 February 2009 - 01:02 AM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#17    draconic chronicler

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 11:57 AM

lil gremlin on Feb 16 2009, 11:32 AM, said:

linked-image

this is zeus meilichios, an aspect of zeus.....a cthonic aspect....and he is here a big wingless, limbless snake.
Using wiki saved some time here, essentially Zeus aquired the epithet after supplanting an earlier orphic daemon.

A Snake, not a drakon.
a daemon not a god
propitiated rather than worshiped.

i have never disputed orphism and the importance of snakes in Greek religious ritual.....but this is certainly not a quadrupedal dragon.

if you have no idea what is meant by Zeus Meilichios
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meilichios




its a bit like a corporate takeover....

its also something i pointed out to both you and archie earlier, and while he saw the reason of it, you thought it was nonsense!

Griffins always painted Green????

linked-image

This is from the throne room at knossos. it is a gryphon.....without wings....and its not green......

It dates from a time where you say these quadrupedal winged reptiles lived side by side with humans. Are you sure later greeks 'forgot' how their earlier 'gods' looked, thus representing them as  both big mythical snakes and composite beasties???

How do you 'explain' this?


p.s. please see these.....

.


Thank you Grem for posting the "exception" that proves the rule.  These gryphons are some of the earliest depictions I am familiar with, and are depicted in natural mammalian colors and without wings, EXACTLY as we should predict, if early man found the bones of a protoceratopsian, which Dr. Adrienne Mayor makes an excellent argument is the fossil that inspired the belief in these creatures.

But why do other ancient gryphons have wings, belly scutes, spikey   backs and are green in color, all traits suggesting a reptile?

Probably because they knew there were large eagle headed quadrepeds based on the bones, but assumed some of these beasts were green, and reptilian features, and wings because they saw LIVING DRAGONS as distances, because by this time they had already long-departed the ancient city states where they once were fed and feted as gods, and by now lived like any wild beasts.

But the old gods retained the serpent identification because the people saw smaller versions of the serpents every day.  Their ability to shed their skins, and their unblinking eye caused people to associate them with the gods, that they knew had reptilian attributes as well.  And many traits of the serpent were like the old dragon gods, reptilian heads with sharp teeth, scaly bodies, long necks, etc.

Those links largely substantiate what I said.  And the illustrated tablet depicts Zeus in the form of a huge Drakon (zeus meilichios) being worshipped by three people.  And even if this is an absorbed earlier god, we can presume that the earlier  serpent god was worshipped by the Greeks as well.  And a "large snake" can be a Drakon.  Often, to differentiate a "God" Drakon like Zeus from a normal "snake" it is given a beard.    So far you are "batting zero", Grem, so far we have only disucussed Greece, and we have undeniable proof of people worshipping Drakons/reptilian deities, and the highest deities of ancient Greece are depicted as Drakons, born as Drakons, copulate as Drakons, fight as Drakons, etc.  

Since you like Wiki so much, don't forget that Wiki lumps Serpent and dragon worship together.   http://en.wikipedia....pent_(symbolism)

Quote  "Sometimes serpents and dragons are used interchangeably, having similar symbolic functions. The venom of the serpent is thought to have a fiery quality similar to a fire spitting dragon. The Greek Ladon and the Norse Nhggr are sometimes described as serpents and sometimes as dragons. In Germanic mythology, serpent (Old English: wyrm, Old High German: wurm, Old Norse: ormr) is used interchangeable with the Greek borrowing dragon (OE: draca, OHG: trahho, ON: dreki). In China, the Indian serpent nāga was equated with the lng or Chinese dragon. The Aztec and Toltec serpent god Quetzalcoatl also has dragon like wings, like its equivalent in Mayan mythology Gukumatz ("feathered serpent")."



Edited by draconic chronicler, 17 February 2009 - 12:15 PM.


#18    The Gremlin

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Posted 17 February 2009 - 01:35 PM

a god cannot be a drakon.

a god may command drakones, but not be one.

drakon is what they do.

They watch, and guard.

drakones are 'exotic', 'other',

tales of reptiles at the fringes of the greek world are often described as drakones...but they often relate to real creatures....none of which are quadrupedal flying reptiles.

drakon can also be used as an adjective, you may call a particularly stubborn/fierce snake a drakon....and in the next sentence call it a snake.


....say you fell over a basket whilst running through the market, and come face to face with a big snake.....while you may get away unharmed, you might describe it later to friends as a drakon....it doesnt mean that the snake actually is one.

you can speculate all you like, but you cannot provide any evidence of quadrupedal, winged reptiles actually existing... ever, not only in greek culture, you cannot prove that they (as mythical creatures or real ones) were worshiped by cultures around the world.
You cannot prove that the Greeks witnessed any, let alone worshiped them.

Also you provided no evidence for green reptilian griffins.....

linked-image

linked-image
c.1300BC from Mycenae....how far back do i have to go.....they were always composite constructs....

linked-image
C.15thcentury BC

linked-image
C. 13Century BC

linked-image
c.1420BC

linked-image
c. 14thCentury BC.

none of these look reptilian, all are early.....all are composite creatures.
undoubtedly there are some depicted that may have reptilian features, depictions of them vary....because they were never seen on a daily basis, and never worshiped.

i find it strange that amid all of the composite creatures and other fantastic mythical animals and monsters that the greeks depicted and told stories about there are no flying quadrupedal reptiles. You'd expect to find some at least if they were so important to the greeks, and seen on a daily basis....even monthly.

You are trying to convince us that the sorts of folk who can represent what creatures they see with the sophistication shown here....
linked-image
could not draw a flying lizard! You must be kidding!

Ill let others judge.


ps. you havent mentioned any of the

Quote

multitude of accounts of them by intellectuals in all of the most advanced human cultures of the ancient and medieval worlds


now might be a good time.


Edited by lil gremlin, 17 February 2009 - 11:37 PM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#19    draconic chronicler

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 03:56 AM

lil gremlin on Feb 17 2009, 07:35 AM, said:

a god cannot be a drakon.

a god may command drakones, but not be one.

drakon is what they do.

They watch, and guard.

drakones are 'exotic', 'other',

tales of reptiles at the fringes of the greek world are often described as drakones...but they often relate to real creatures....none of which are quadrupedal flying reptiles.

drakon can also be used as an adjective, you may call a particularly stubborn/fierce snake a drakon....and in the next sentence call it a snake.


....say you fell over a basket whilst running through the market, and come face to face with a big snake.....while you may get away unharmed, you might describe it later to friends as a drakon....it doesnt mean that the snake actually is one.

you can speculate all you like, but you cannot provide any evidence of quadrupedal, winged reptiles actually existing... ever, not only in greek culture, you cannot prove that they (as mythical creatures or real ones) were worshiped by cultures around the world.
You cannot prove that the Greeks witnessed any, let alone worshiped them.

Also you provided no evidence for green reptilian griffins.....



none of these look reptilian, all are early.....all are composite creatures.
undoubtedly there are some depicted that may have reptilian features, depictions of them vary....because they were never seen on a daily basis, and never worshiped.

i find it strange that amid all of the composite creatures and other fantastic mythical animals and monsters that the greeks depicted and told stories about there are no flying quadrupedal reptiles. You'd expect to find some at least if they were so important to the greeks, and seen on a daily basis....even monthly.

You are trying to convince us that the sorts of folk who can represent what creatures they see with the sophistication shown here....

could not draw a flying lizard! You must be kidding!

Ill let others judge.


ps. you havent mentioned any of the

now might be a good time.


I cannot believe you could make such ridiculous and outrageously false statements.  You really must be getting desperate now that your whole defense has fallen apart.

We can all see now that the Greek Myths state/show that:

Some Greek Gods were originally born as serpents/drakons (accoridng to the legends).

The highest Greek Gods transformed into serpents/drakons to fight and make love (to even include Zeus and his mother Rhea).

Zeus is reported to transform into a serpent/drakon to impregnate both goddesses and mortal women.

Zeus swallows children and spouses alike, (undoubtedly while in serpent/drakon form.

Zeus assumes the attributes of earlier serpent/drakon gods, and is depicted as a serpent/drakon god being WORSHIPPED by humans.

No images of winged, limbed, reptilian dragons in ancient times?  Are you kidding?  You lose again.  What do you think MOST Ketea are?  They are depicted as clearly reptilian creatures often with wings and clawed forearms.  We have both posted these images before.  And these Ketea are sometimes described traveling on land, and are probably the "flying drakons" ins some ancient accounts.  There is even a greek word "Pterodrakon".  

Somewhere in my large library is an image of greek gryphon that are green and have reptilian traits, such as the dragon like head spines as depicted on this gryphon earring. (couldn't get the link to work but go to British Museum and type griffin and cyprus in search engine).  This is the first one handy, but surely you have seen other ancient art of these Griffins with reptilian back spines.

The Greeks said both drakons and Ketea existed, and no one of those times disputed this.  The true Ketea look incredibly similar to both earlier and later dragons, with long necks, snake like reptilian heads, scaly bodies, long sinuous tails, clawed feet, and wings.  There is  NO WAY these creatures could be confused with fish.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 18 February 2009 - 04:02 AM.


#20    The Gremlin

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 08:48 AM

interesting that you have not provided any evidence in the form of sources.

its a shame you cant find the one you wanted, but wait....the impression you gave was that all/most other griffons were reptilian with belly scutes, spines etc.

you have provided no evidence that any god's true form was that of a quadrupedal flying dragon,
or that any god turned into one.
you have provided no evidence to prove that ketos was a quadrupedal flying dragon.

no evidence dc

no case.

Edited by lil gremlin, 18 February 2009 - 08:57 AM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#21    draconic chronicler

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 01:01 PM

lil gremlin on Feb 18 2009, 02:48 AM, said:

interesting that you have not provided any evidence in the form of sources.

its a shame you cant find the one you wanted, but wait....the impression you gave was that all/most other griffons were reptilian with belly scutes, spines etc.

you have provided no evidence that any god's true form was that of a quadrupedal flying dragon,
or that any god turned into one.
you have provided no evidence to prove that ketos was a quadrupedal flying dragon.

no evidence dc

no case.


I have provided a good deal of evidence that the Greek gods may have had their origins as reptilian deities, just as we see in many other cultures.

I have also shown that the Greeks worshipped Zeus in the form of a giant Drakon, and the worship of drakon deities persisted into the Roman period with Glykon.

And you said yourself that the evidence shows the Drakons gradually assuming the form of classical dragons due to eastern influences.  

All through the classical period there were also Ketea, often depicted with wings, long necks, clawed feet, scales and serpent-like heads. And no, they were not confused with whales despite modern scientists giving them this same name.  The Greeks also identified various species of whales, calling the sperm whale phytos as I recall.

These reptilian ketos are readily identified as "dragons" and are called such in the popular literature.

Moreover, in the myths,  these "dragons" are the offspring of Gods, implying they are at least 'partial'/demi gods themselves.  Ketos were even honored on Greek coins, their head in profile like any other deity represented at this time.

They were also given offerings of human sacrifices (at least in the myths) to placate them, exactly as other Gods were given offerings.  We see this in the Perseus story, that may have much earlier origins.

I have shown that the ancient Greeks readily identified the same creatures we call dragons today, with creatures of a different name (Ketea), though by the Roman era, they seem to have been interchangable.   Because these creatures were believed to be real, and born of the gods, honored on coinage and presented offering, they were logically considered gods.  You cannot prove they were never worshipped.  And since serpent-form Drakon gods WERE worshipped in the classical world, it is more likely that some winged and footed 'drakons' were worshipped as well, than were not.

Attached Thumbnails

  • coin.jpg
  • glycon_wiki.jpg

Edited by draconic chronicler, 18 February 2009 - 01:57 PM.


#22    The Gremlin

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Posted 18 February 2009 - 02:02 PM

Quote

I have also shown that the Greeks worshipped Zeus in the form of a giant Drakon.


nope you showed zeus meilichios
meilichios was a chthonic snake daemon....not a drakon god......and certainly not quadrupedal.

Quote

And you said yourself that the evidence shows the Drakons gradually assuming the form of classical dragons due to eastern influences.


and this helps you how? It demonstrates that the snakey drakon evolved as a concept, and was therefore unlikely to have been a real living quadruped.

Quote

All through the classical period there were also Ketea, often depicted with wings, long necks, clawed feet, scales and serpent-like heads.


evidence?

Quote

These reptilian ketos are readily identified as "dragons" and are called such in the popular literature.


ill get to this in a minute....

Quote

Moreover, in the myths, these "dragons" are the offspring of Gods, implying they are at least 'partial'/demi gods themselves.

i think i can see what you are getting at, they certainly werent normal snakes....they were mythical snakes....(until the late-classical/hellenistic age)
They were not demi-gods at all. But they did not age, and they could be killed as accounts of them show....just like all of the gods' monstrous offspring.
QUOTE
I have shown that the ancient Greeks readily identified the same creatures we call dragons today, with creatures of a different name (Ketea), that we would call dragons today. Because these creatures were believed to be real, and born of the gods, you cannot prove they were never worshipped.


no you havent. so weve gone from drakones, to griffins, and now to ketos/ketea.
Im sure they werent worshiped, there is no evidence that they were, the onus is on you to prove they were.....

linked-image
archaic greek

linked-image
ca 530 - 520 BC archaic

linked-image
Date: ca 425 - 401 BC
Period: Classical

linked-image
Date: ca 325 BC
Period: Late Classical / Early Hellenic


linked-image
Classical

linked-image
Date: C3rd AD
Period: Imperial Roman

http://www.theoi.com/image/Z47.11Perseus.jpg
Imperial Roman

none of these are quadrupedal flying reptiles.....despite evidence of orientalising during the late classical/hellenistic age.
often when they appear in myth they are confounded/killed by a hero.

ps. the coin you present is Carian (from sw Turkey) and does not reflect mainland/mainstream greek culture, it does however, intrestingly anticipate the orientalizing of the concept seen on a wider scale much later...it is highly localised, someone from Athens would probably never have seen the coin. Show me one from Greek culture, rather than Carian-Greek.....besides which you cannot suggest that that monster was quadrupedal, its more likely it was envisaged as the later classical and hellenistic images of ketos, with 2 fins and a long serpentine tail.

out of interest please identify the other pic, not that it helps your argument any.


All im seeing is speculation, and nothing to support your statement that it is not speculation it is fact.

to conclude then,

DC cannot support his statement that dragons (his quadrupedal, winged reptile version) were worshiped by all advanced ancient cultures, even the culture which coined the name drakon did not have them until their own great mythical serpents merged stylistically with composite creatures from the east.
He has offered nothing to suggest that dragons are anything but mythological creatures.

Edited by lil gremlin, 18 February 2009 - 10:10 PM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#23    draconic chronicler

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 02:46 AM

lil gremlin on Feb 18 2009, 08:02 AM, said:

nope you showed zeus meilichios
meilichios was a chthonic snake daemon....not a drakon god......and certainly not quadrupedal.

and this helps you how? It demonstrates that the snakey drakon evolved as a concept, and was therefore unlikely to have been a real living quadruped.


evidence?



ill get to this in a minute....

i think i can see what you are getting at, they certainly werent normal snakes....they were mythical snakes....(until the late-classical/hellenistic age)
They were not demi-gods at all. But they did not age, and they could be killed as accounts of them show....just like all of the gods' monstrous offspring.


no you havent. so weve gone from drakones, to griffins, and now to ketos/ketea.
Im sure they werent worshiped, there is no evidence that they were, the onus is on you to prove they were.....

Period: Imperial Roman

http://www.theoi.com/image/Z47.11Perseus.jpg
Imperial Roman

none of these are quadrupedal flying reptiles.....despite evidence of orientalising during the late classical/hellenistic age.
often when they appear in myth they are confounded/killed by a hero.

ps. the coin you present is Carian (from sw Turkey) and does not reflect mainland/mainstream greek culture, it does however, intrestingly anticipate the orientalizing of the concept seen on a wider scale much later...it is highly localised, someone from Athens would probably never have seen the coin. Show me one from Greek culture, rather than Carian-Greek.....besides which you cannot suggest that that monster was quadrupedal, its more likely it was envisaged as the later classical and hellenistic images of ketos, with 2 fins and a long serpentine tail.

out of interest please identify the other pic, not that it helps your argument any.


All im seeing is speculation, and nothing to support your statement that it is not speculation it is fact.

to conclude then,

DC cannot support his statement that dragons (his quadrupedal, winged reptile version) were worshiped by all advanced ancient cultures, even the culture which coined the name drakon did not have them until their own great mythical serpents merged stylistically with composite creatures from the east.
He has offered nothing to suggest that dragons are anything but mythological creatures.


When you discovered your situation was hopeless, you decide to change the playing field.

I have proven without a doubt that the Greeks worhshipped reptilian deities gererally known as Drakons, the word which our word 'dragon' comes from.  This even includes the highest God of the Greeks, Zeus.  Now you quibble that it "isn't really zeus" even though this was n aspect of zeus, in other words, he could change into this Drakon.  And why do you try to deny this, when there are  plenty of other myths of Zeus turning into a Drakon to fight his Drakon mother, or to impregnate Goddesses and mortal women alike.

And if you delude yourself that Zeus Isn't a drakon god despie the overwhelming evidence that is here for everyone to see, we see the Greeks worshipping a new Drakon god in the 2ndand 3rd centuries AD, a god of fertility and potector against pestilence that was a LIVING reptile in a temple, thoughsome detractors claimed he was a puppet.  But if a puppet, it is curious that he had the patronage of provincial governors. Read this:
http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/glykon/glykon.html

So all you can do now is claim these are not "true" dragons they were worshipping, but serpents that hey called Drakons..  No one said these had to be dragons right out of a Harry Potter book, but the fact that Greeks had Reptilian deities called drakons.  And this you cannot refute any longer.

And yes there are many winged and footed drakons/ketos in classical art, dating from very early, until the Roman imperial period.  I have posted a few below.  You can clearly see the clawed forelimbs and wings, scaley bodies, and reptilian heads, showing a link between the Mushrushu of 2000 BC Mesopotamia, 500 BC Chinese Bixie dragons, and classc western dragons of 1500 AD.  Yes, sometimes the sentient dragon gods appear as serpents, but this is little different than the Serpentine dragons of China.  These depiction were hundreds of years later than the times the dragon actually interrelated with humans as the eearliest legends attest to.  I have also included a very reptilian ketos you had posted, that seems to be walking on its wings, exactly as we now know pterosaurs walked!

So I believe I have provide evidence to prove my points, and you were clearly wrong when you stated the ancient Greeks had not reptilian deities.

Have you 'had enough' or do you care to claim the Chinese, or Mesopotamians, or Mesoamericans didn't have reptilian/dragon deities either?

Attached Thumbnails

  • Ahenobarbus.jpg
  • Ara_Pacis_WIKI_2.jpg
  • Jonah_and_Ketos.jpg
  • ketos_coin.jpg
  • ketospallete2.jpg
  • ketosvase.jpg
  • NereidAndKetos.jpg

Edited by draconic chronicler, 20 February 2009 - 03:00 AM.


#24    The Gremlin

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 12:08 PM

Quote

When you discovered your situation was hopeless, you decide to change the playing field.


here DC, from my very first post.....

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Introduction.

I will be debating against the assertion that humans have universally witnessed the same flying, quadrupedal reptile, and worshipped them as their gods.
DC would argue that not only did people witness the same creature, but those that worshiped them housed and fed them, took rides into the sky on them,were 'civilised'and protected by them, and followed them around on their nomadic travels.......If cultures around the world were so familiar with six limbed, flying reptiles of gigantic size, superior intelligence, immortality etc, why is it that none of these cultures accurately represented them the way they often accurately represented other animals? And why would these representations vary so considerably?.........to clarify, whilst DC did not make clear in his statement that the 'flying reptiles' were six limbed, his 'theory' does make it clear that they were, like the mushushu (sumerian) composite creature. This debate takes this 'form' of dragon to be the type he refers to as the universal origin of the myth.


Ive made it clear from the start what my argument is, you seem to be satisfied now to take any 'reptilian' you can from greek culture, since you cannot find any dragons (by your definition) to support you...

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No one said these had to be dragons right out of a Harry Potter book, but the fact that Greeks had Reptilian deities called drakons. And this you cannot refute any longer.

You make a lot of vague generalisations without anything specific ever to back it up.

Ive explained about Zeus-Meilichios, and why he isnt a drakon.....although he could possibly be described as one (since at the time a drakon was a big mythical snake).
Serpents in Religion are popular in Greek culture, just as it is in many...
http://en.wikipedia....pent_(symbolism)

but it is your argument, is it not that Zeus was really a quadrupedal flying lizard.

so why do you use accounts of him changing into the form of a snake to support your arguments.....besides being a grave error, it draws attention to the fact that you have absolutely nothing to support your speculation.

Perhaps a coup-de-grace is required.

A popular claim of this nature that you make (without providing any source material) is that Zeus regularly takes the form of a dragon (your using the term to support you therefore you must mean quadrupedal and winged), to impregnate other goddesses and mortal women; you most often backhandedly offer the story of Alexander the Great's conception, and hope that nobody is actually familiar with the material.

Alex was the undisputed son of philip.
at one time, for political reasons it was advantageous for a party in macedonia to proliferate a spurious story about the foreigner queen and her half macedonian son; suggesing that his real father was not philip, but one of his mother's familiars:a serpent.
However this was taken by Alexander to support his own propoganda about being the son of Zeus/Amon.....(in both these early versions a large snake is the object of attraction, or manifestation of zeus.)
the story changes by the time of the ptolemies, eager to justify their rule by their continuity with nectanebo and Alexander, mention that it is nectanebo who visits alex's mum, and since he IS the son of Ammon (as tradition holds) then so becomes alex via a legitimate pharoah lineage.
This is egyptian hellenistic propoganda, manipulating an old story.



Plutarch 46AD-127AD.....already comparitively late, as ive said b4 he mentions the scandal, which had already been turned into propoganda by Callisthenes (Alexander's court historian) his account is wonderfully anecdotal.
plutarch II.1...II.

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As for the lineage of Alexander, on his father's side he was a descendant of Heracles through Caranus, and on his mother's side a descendant of Aeacus through Neoptolemus; this is accepted without any question.



but plutarch loves a good story, so he offers the notable myths surrounding Alexander's birth....later picked up on by justin and the alexander romance.


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[2] Well, then, the night before that on which the marriage was consummated, the bride dreamed that there was a peal of thunder and that a thunder-bolt fell upon her womb, and that thereby much fire was kindled, which broke into flames that travelled all about, and then was extinguished. At a later time, too, after the marriage, Philip dreamed that he was putting a seal upon his wife's womb; and the device of the seal, as he thought, was the figure of a lion.




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[3] The other seers, now, were led by the vision to suspect that Philip needed to put a closer watch upon his marriage relations; but Aristander of Telmessus said that the woman was pregnant, since no seal was put upon what was empty, and pregnant of a son whose nature would be bold and lion-like.




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[4] Moreover, a serpent was once seen lying stretched out by the side of Olympias as she slept, and we are told that this, more than anything else, dulled the ardour of Philip's attentions to his wife, so that he no longer came often to sleep by her side, either because he feared that some spells and enchantments might be practised upon him by her, or because he shrank from her embraces in the conviction that she was the partner of a superior being.




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[5] But concerning these matters there is another story to this effect: all the women of these parts were addicted to the Orphic rites and the orgies of Dionysus from very ancient times (being called Klodones and Mimallones1 ), and imitated in many ways the practices of the Edonian women and the Thracian women about Mount Haemus, from whom, as it would seem, the word “threskeuein”2 came to be applied to the celebration of extravagant and superstitious ceremonies. [6] Now Olympias, who affected these divine possessions more zealously than other women, and carried out these divine inspirations in wilder fashion, used to provide the revelling companies with great tame serpents, which would often lift their heads from out the ivy and the mystic winnowing-baskets,3 or coil themselves about the wands and garlands of the women, thus terrifying the men.



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III. However, after his vision, as we are told, Philip sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to Delphi, by whom an oracle was brought him from Apollo, who bade him sacrifice to Ammon and hold that god in greatest reverence, but told him he was to lose that one of his eyes which he had applied to the chink in the door when he espied the god, in the form of a serpent, sharing the couch of his wife. [2] Moreover, Olympias, as Eratosthenes says, when she sent Alexander forth upon his great expedition, told him, and him alone, the secret of his begetting, and bade him have purposes worthy of his birth. Others, on the contrary, say that she repudiated the idea, and said: “Alexander must cease slandering me to Hera.”1


Perhaps Olympias here is reacting to Alexander's witty and sharp tongue, and reaction to the tales against his legitimacy (after his position was relatively secure as king he could afford to have a sense of humour about things.)

[3] Be that as it may, Alexander was born early in the month Hecatombaeon,2 the Macedonian name for which is Los, on the sixth day of the month, and on this day the temple of Ephesian Artemis was burnt.

he doesnt dwell on these differing mythical traditions....they are just stories, he gives his opinion in his first statement....that Alex is the son of philip and olympias.



here's what justin (a third century AD roman historian) has to say on the matter...


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11.11.1 Alexander next got possession of Rhodes and Cilicia22 without an effort. He then went to the temple of Jupiter Ammon, to consult the oracle about the event of his future proceedings, and his own parentage. For his mother Olympias had confessed to her husband Philip, that “she had conceived Alexander, not by him, but by a serpent of extraordinary size.” Philip, too, towards the end of his life, had publicly declared that “Alexander was not his son;” and he accordingly divorced Olympias, as having been guilty of adultery.



and in the original latin...


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3 Namque mater eius Olympias confessa uiro suo Philippo fuerat Alexandrum non ex eo se, sed ex serpente ingentis magnitudinis, concepisse. 4 Denique Philippus ultimo prope uitae suae tempore filium suum non esse palam praedicauerat. 5 Qua ex causa Olympiada uelut stupri conpertam repudio dimiserat.



note neither use the word drakon or dragon, and justin knew the word...why did he not use it? neither is the serpent described as winged or Zeus in disguise.

it is only in the romance that she is 'visited' by a drakon....and even here it is Nectanebo (pharoah of egypt) who has visited the court of Philip who transforms himself by magic into an aspect of one to 'visit' her. so Zeus/ammon only gets to her because nectanebo transforms himself into an aspect of the god in this form. This is what the romance and medieval romance pictures depict.

The story/myth of Alexander' s conception follows a clear progression or evolution, which results in medieval popular fantastical tales of winged serpents.
.....

What Alexander believed on the matter...
Alexander was the issue of two great ancestral lines and he believed it to be true and never missed an oppurtunity to honour his ancestors, emulate them or outdo them in deeds.
On his father's side he was decended from Herakles, and on his mother's side from Achilles.
Alexander was an intellegent fellow who recieved an excellent education from Aristotle. He was party to Aristotle's secret musings and metaphysical beliefs. Whilst in the levant (and in constant written contact with his mentor) he admonishes Aristotle for writing down his theories so they can be taught to all and sundry. Alexander believed he understood something about the gods that the rank and file didnt know and wanted to keep it that way. Aristotle reassures alexander saying that although he has written these things down, he had done so in such a way as to be missed by those of limited comprehension skills.
This is a tale which does not recieve much scholarly attention, most work on alexander in antiquity and modernity has regarded his military exploits; those that focus on building his psychological profile do mention it; few actually delve into Aristotle's Metaphysics to glean what Alexander might have understood.
Most paint Alexander as a pragmatist, expoiting the superstitions of followers and enemies alike...some believe that at least towards the end he came to believe in his own divinity. A meglomaniac? Others see him as led by his superstitions from the start, believing in his mother's dream, believing in the insinuations of the priests of Amon that he was the son of the god-rather than philip.
The truth lies somewhere between, when we see how Aristotle percieved the olympian gods-and how this was transmitted to Alexander, we can see how this is possible. It would be true to say that Alexander believed in Zeus/Amon and the other gods, and he honoured his heroic ancestry...but his perception of the gods and heros was on another level to that of those 'uneducated' by secret knowledge.
key to understanding Alexander's mindset is to study Aristotle.
enough of that.

As i have said before there were real political reasons why Alexander visited Siwah whilst in Egypt. and more than just one. Personal curiosity was something that was focused on by some ancient historians. Callisthenes particularly, because he was in the business of cultivating Alexander's heroic image- Alexander was keen to have a propogandist at hand. First consider the state of affairs back home in Greece and Macedonia. Next consider the politics of Egypt...particularly its recent history as a satrapy of the persian empire. Next consider Alexander's campaign strategy. (i realise this may mean some extra reading, but i dont want to make this post too long, or to fill it with web references  ...but will gladly discuss later, or in a more relevent thread.)
So Alexander went to siwah for important reasons, A personal curiosity about finding out if philip really was his father or not was probably not one of them.

xx xx xx

and so it is with everything you present.

And Glycon? pleaze!
I wasnt sure you knew what you were posting, so i had to check....

Glycon was a newcommer, his cult was exposed by Lucian....oh, and btw, he was not a quadrupedal, flying lizard god.........he was a trained snake with a puppet head god.
dont take my word for it.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycon

His inclusion as supporting evidence for quadrupedal, winged reptilian superbeings is comedic to say the least.

Ive made my conclusion earlier, nothing's changed; i believe the thread is now open  unsure.gif
comments/votes would be welcome.





I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#25    draconic chronicler

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 01:47 PM

You really don't seem to "get it".  I don't have to prove the gods like zeus or glykon are real to win this debate.  I only have to prove that the classical Greeks believed in and worshipped "dragon gods" and this I have done, because a "Drakon" is any large superatural reptile, that may or may not have feet or wings.  You can quibble all you want about Zeus only assuming the form of a Drakon, but Glycon was worshipped as a beneficent god by probably millions in the Eastern Roman Empire when the classical world was at its most sophisticated level.  Even the brilliant Marcus Aurelius apparently acknowledged this deity.

Understand that I am not proposing Zeus and the rest of the olympian gods are intelligent winged 'dragons' lounging about on mount olympus until they get horny enough to come down and rape women. (Though millions undboubtedly believed the stories, including Alexander's).  

  I am saying that the beliefs of weather controlling "dragons" were believed in by the most ancient cultures like China and Mesopotamia, and here in Greece a thousand years later, we have another weather controlling god, zeus, who still seems to retain the reptilian characteristics of the earlier, reptilian, weather controlling gods.

And I am not saying Glycon is real either.  I am saying that virtually every ancient culture for which we have any decent records acknowledge "dragon gods", which are essntially an enormous, sentient, supernatural reptile, which do vary in form somewhat from one place to another.

As for the limbed, winged traditional dragons of popular cultural, I have also provided proof that they were still considered real animals in the classical world, though believed tobe connected to/ born of the Gods as well, and were depicted on various artifacts. One of the worlds first 'scientists' and also an admiral in the Roman Navy advised sefaring men how to avoid their depredations.

Today's sea and lake monsters, some seen by hundreds of witnesses bear a striking resemblance to these long necked reptilian creatures depicted by early many in cultures all over the world.  But to win this debate, I don't even have to prove they were ever real.  I just have to prove that ancient cultures all over the world worshipped large reptilian deities that we collectively call 'dragons' , and this I have done.




#26    The Gremlin

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 03:00 PM

If you didnt want to defend this statement DC....


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An entire world of early man considered giant flying reptiles that we call dragons today once were their gods. This i not my speculation, it is fact.


why enter into debate about it?

this statement insists that giant flying reptiles were worshiped as gods, and that you could prove it because its "not my speculation, it is fact."

you have not done so.

Edited by lil gremlin, 20 February 2009 - 03:03 PM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#27    Mattshark

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 09:33 PM

linked-image
That picture makes me think shark as a basis. Twin dorsal fins. Would it not a reasonable summation to think that the great white was the origin of this?

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#28    draconic chronicler

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 12:43 AM

Mattshark on Feb 20 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

linked-image
That picture makes me think shark as a basis. Twin dorsal fins. Would it not a reasonable summation to think that the great white was the origin of this?


I agree, that creature was probably based on seeing a large shark, and Great Whites have been found in the Med.

But the same culture also depicted, long necked, winged, claw footed  reptilian dragons as well, that bear an uncanny resemblance to the modern sightings of lake monsters (periscoping head above the water) .

But of course, even though you believe sharks inspired this monster, you probably dismiss the sea dragons they depicted.  Interesting double standard.


#29    draconic chronicler

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 12:53 AM

lil gremlin on Feb 20 2009, 09:00 AM, said:

If you didnt want to defend this statement DC....




why enter into debate about it?

this statement insists that giant flying reptiles were worshiped as gods, and that you could prove it because its "not my speculation, it is fact."

you have not done so.


I have proven it.  The ancient Greeks did worhip Drakons.  Even when you rather lamely tried to dismiss the Greek depiction of Zeus as a Drakon, we have Glycon, clearly a Drakon worshipped as a beneificent god at the very height of the classical world.

And I have also shown 1000 years of images of winged, claw footed, serpent headed, ketea which appear to the same dragons of the sumerians, chinese, and medieval europeans.  And these dragons were clearly believed to be the offpring and assistants of the Gods, if not Gods themselves.






#30    The Gremlin

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 01:48 AM

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I have proven it.  The ancient Greeks did worhip Drakons.  Even when you rather lamely tried to dismiss the Greek depiction of Zeus as a Drakon, we have Glycon, clearly a Drakon worshipped as a beneificent god at the very height of the classical world.

And I have also shown 1000 years of images of winged, claw footed, serpent headed, ketea which appear to the same dragons of the sumerians, chinese, and medieval europeans.  And these dragons were clearly believed to be the offpring and assistants of the Gods, if not Gods themselves.

http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/glykon/glykon.html

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Glykon: snake god, associated with the Greek prophet Alexander of Abonutichus

The cult of the snake god Glykon was introduced in in the mid-second century CE by the Greek prophet Alexander of Abonutichus. This is, at least, what we can deduce from the writings by the Greek author Lucian of Samosata (c.120-c.190), who devoted an extremely hostile (and extremely amusing) pamphlet to the charlatan he called Alexander the oracle monger.

Ignoring Lucian\'s bias, we can probably accept from his work that the cult -or at least the snake Alexander venerated- originated in Macedonia, where similar snake cults were already known in the fourth century BCE. (It was told that the mother of Alexander the Great, Olympias, had become pregnant after she had slept with a snake, a point to which we shall return.) The prophet Alexander brought the god, a very large snake, to his home town Abonutichus in Paphlagonia and built a temple, which became an important oracle.



linked-image


It was a real snake, with a glove-puppet head.  sssssssssssnake.


BTW
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Indo-Greek stone palette representing an Hellenistic Nereid goddess riding a Ketos sea-monster, 2nd century BCE, Sirkap.

I wouldnt mind betting those others are late too.

how about this one?
ketos.jpg

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Edited by lil gremlin, 21 February 2009 - 02:17 AM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter




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