171 replies to this topic

[Undeadskeptic]

Having read the whole debate, it seems to me that lil Gremlin offered up a lot more evidence for his statments and a lot less conjecture than DC. I also feel DC did produce several interesting claims, which, whilst facsinating, were totally absurd.

[legionromanes]

I couldn't agree more, DC has no idea of the basic facts surrounding mythology that he claims to be expert in and thinks that his preconceived ideas and speculations are a match for posted evidence. They aren't and Lil Gremlin quite rightly ripped him to pieces

good luck with your book DC you'll need it, any publishers option it yet ?

[draconic chronicler]

Undeadskeptic on Feb 22 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

Having read the whole debate, it seems to me that lil Gremlin offered up a lot more evidence for his statments and a lot less conjecture than DC. I also feel DC did produce several interesting claims, which, whilst facsinating, were totally absurd.

Why am  I not surprised you would say this?  Gremlin was not even aware of the serpent god Glycon until I mentioned it here.  In fact, he quite incorrectly stated the Greeks had not reptilian gods at all.......... and he was very wrong as I have proven.  

[draconic chronicler]

legionromanes on Feb 23 2009, 04:52 PM, said:

I couldn't agree more, DC has no idea of the basic facts surrounding mythology that he claims to be expert in and thinks that his preconceived ideas and speculations are a match for posted evidence. They aren't and Lil Gremlin quite rightly ripped him to pieces

good luck with your book DC you'll need it, any publishers option it yet ?

Why of course you would agree with a 16 year old.  You have demonstrated by our own debate that you know even less about ancient mythology than Gremlin.

[draconic chronicler]

Mattshark on Feb 22 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

In which text?
Cause Pliny the elder mentions dragons in India and Ethiopia (2 places he never went) and it is accepted that these where references to pythons.

I was referring to his discussion of Ketos in the Mediterranean and how to prevent them from attacking your ship.  Please don't try to tell us he was never in the Mediterranean.  He was a Roman ADMIRAL!

[legionromanes]

draconic chronicler on Feb 24 2009, 02:09 AM, said:

Why of course you would agree with a 16 year old.  You have demonstrated by our own debate that you know even less about ancient mythology than Gremlin.

Epic fail again DC
I am pwning you in that debate, dont trust your own opinion as its already been proven wrong so many times, ask anyone else, they will tell you you have no credibility left at all


btw this part is where people not in the debate get a chance to comment
you had your oppotunity to post and you screwed it up as all the comments so far show, deal with it//

[The Gremlin]

draconic chronicler on Feb 24 2009, 02:07 AM, said:

Why am  I not surprised you would say this?  Gremlin was not even aware of the serpent god Glycon until I mentioned it here.  In fact, he quite incorrectly stated the Greeks had not reptilian gods at all.......... and he was very wrong as I have proven.

well actually i had come across him previously, reading lucian.....and again looking at snake cults....

but he's hardly that memorable, or significant....not to mention bogus as hell.

dont gimmie that 'oo but marcus aurelius sent off for his advice....'  So what the guy was open to any ideas.....probably knew the oracle came from the priests really, but thems some well informed priests.

btw, you still havent provided any pre-hellenistic evidence for claw-footed and winged ketos yet.....or drakones for that matter.

Snake cults does not wash, they are irrelevent to your argument.... you cant use the 'they inspired serpent cults' line, you claim that they saw them daily back in them bronze ages.

im not sure the glycon thing really counts, although i conceed that it does on some lower level. But then you have to score points where you can, your theory is all shot to hell.

see, glykon was not a drakon, nor was he a winged, claw-footed quadrupedal lizard....no matter how you twist it.

also, some 16yr olds here show a considerable degree of maturity in their critical thinking, something your theory displays a distinct lack of.

might be worth considering.

[The Gremlin]

draconic chronicler on Feb 24 2009, 02:13 AM, said:

I was referring to his discussion of Ketos in the Mediterranean and how to prevent them from attacking your ship.  Please don't try to tell us he was never in the Mediterranean.  He was a Roman ADMIRAL!

Mattshark was quite correctly pointing out that he wrote about things he never saw/experienced, but just heard of 3rd hand. He never visited india and never went to ethiopia either, yet wrote about their dragons...pythons and such.

no real claw footed, winged reptile ketos or dragons in pliny im afraid, just a lot of plagurism and new reserch on a few subjects.


Despite being an admiral and famous writer we cannot trust everything pliny comes out with, every fool knows that. He is reliable on some well observed things, but dragons......no.

how surprising.

think about it logically, what sea creatures are known to ram/attack boats?


ps. wasnt it in your debate with legionromanes that you ignored an oxford professor's opinion on the disagreement, one of the most qualified persons on the subject of Mesopotamia in the world....someone who's paid top dollar for their opinion.
she gave it freely and you discarded it like some snot-rag, because: A] Her educated and professional opinion proved you wrong, and B] because you think you know more than her?

She is privy to all the updated information to hand, all the improved translations and new and corrected perceptions of mesopotamian cultures even before they're published. And you've got Bibleorigins.com and Google.

Quote

btw this part is where people not in the debate get a chance to comment

i forgot that, oops...sorry.    

Edited by lil gremlin, 24 February 2009 - 03:32 AM.

[Mattshark]

draconic chronicler on Feb 24 2009, 02:13 AM, said:

I was referring to his discussion of Ketos in the Mediterranean and how to prevent them from attacking your ship.  Please don't try to tell us he was never in the Mediterranean.  He was a Roman ADMIRAL!

Yes and Ketos also translates literally to big fish as well remember.
Can you show a link of him directly saying that because I have not seen. The only mention in The Natural History is of the sea dragon in reference to the weever fish (Trachinus draco).
The other mentions there are of draco as in the latin for snake and none are first hand reference.

[legionromanes]

Mattshark on Feb 24 2009, 06:22 AM, said:

Yes and Ketos also translates literally to big fish as well remember.
Can you show a link of him directly saying that because I have not seen. The only mention in The Natural History is of the sea dragon in reference to the weever fish (Trachinus draco).
The other mentions there are of draco as in the latin for snake and none are first hand reference.

Quote

In the French Ocean there is discovered a mightie fish called Physeter, [i. a Whirlepoole] rising up aloft out of the sea in manner of a columne or pillar; higher than the very sailes of the ships: and then he spouteth, and casteth forth a mightie deale of water as it were out of a conduit, ynough to drowne and sinke a ship.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny9.html
this is physeter

Physeter macrocephalus - sperm whale

[The Gremlin]

Here's one instance where Pliny mentions Ketos.....

Quote

f. de arabia, tradit mitulos ternas heminas capere, cetos sescentorum pedum longitudinis et trecentorum sexaginta latitudinis in flumen arabiae intrasse, pinguique eius mercatores negotiatos, et omnium piscium adipe camelos perungui in eo situ, ut asilos ab iis fugent odore. (0.68)

And here it is in english for those who cant read latin......

Quote

Juba, in those books descriptive of Arabia, which he has dedicated to Caius Cęsar, the son of Augustus, informs us that there are mussels1 on those coasts, the shells of which are capable of holding three semisextarii; and that, on one occasion, a whale,2 six hundred feet in length and three hundred and sixty feet broad,3 made its way up a river of Arabia,  [p. 6006] the blubber of which was bought up by the merchants there. He tells us, too, that in those parts they anoint their camels with the grease of all kinds of fish, for the purpose of keeping off the gad-flies4 by the smell.

seems like he knows what he is refering to when he says cetus, unless you believe that they killed a winged quadrupedal ketos, and took its blubber!!!!

Again your 'evidence' does not stand up to the briefest scruitiny.

Edited by lil gremlin, 24 February 2009 - 02:08 PM.

[Mattshark]

lil gremlin on Feb 24 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

Here's one instance where Pliny mentions Ketos.....




And here it is in english for those who cant read latin......




seems like he knows what he is refering to when he says cetus, unless you believe that they killed a winged quadrupedal ketos, and took its blubber!!!!

Again your 'evidence' does not stand up to the briefest scruitiny.

That makes sense cetos - cetacean.

[Drago]

Gremlin was pulling out many more reliable sources, and as a result much more reliable information, than DC was.  Gremlin presented a much more logical, coherent, understandable argument as a result.

What I saw on DC's side was a lot of speculation, a lot of brushing aside alternative explanations, and a lot of artistic license.  Which while fun in most cases, isn't debate material.

[The Gremlin]

here's another ref to ketos in pliny....

Quote

a pelusio chabriae castra, casius mons, delubrum iovis casii, tumulus magni pompei. ostracine arabia finitur, a pelusio leftbracketlxvrightbracket p. mox idumaea incipit et palaestina ab emersu sirbonis lacus, quem quidam leftbracketclrightbracket circuitu tradidere. herodotus casio monti adplicuit, nunc est palus modica. oppida rhinocolura et intus rhaphea, gaza et intus anthedon, mons argaris. regio per oram samaria; oppidum ascalo liberum, azotos, iamneae duae, altera intus. iope phoenicum, antiquior terrarum inundatione, ut ferunt, insidet collem, praeiacente saxo, in quo vinculorum andromedae vestigia ostendit.  colitur illic fabulosa ceto. inde apollonia, stratonis turris, eadem caesarea ab herode rege condita, nunc colonia prima flavia a vespasiano imperatore deducta, finis palaestines, leftbracketclxxxviiiirightbracket p. a confinio arabiae. dein phoenice; intus autem samariae oppida neapolis, quod antea mamortha dicebatur, sebaste in monte, et altiore gamala.

and for us mere mortals.....

Quote

On leaving Pelusium we come to the Camp of Chabrias388 , Mount Casius389 , the temple of Jupiter Casius, and the tomb of Pompeius Magnus. Ostracine390 , at a distance of sixty-five miles from Pelusium, is the frontier town of Ara- [p. 1425] bia. (13.) After this, at the point where the Sirbonian Lake391 becomes visible, Idumęa and Palęstina begin. This lake, which some writers have made to be 150 miles in circumference, Herodotus has placed at the foot of Mount Casius; it is now an inconsiderable fen. The towns are Rhinocolura392 , and, in the interior, Rhaphea393 , Gaza, and, still more inland, Anthedon394 : there is also Mount Argaris395 . Proceeding along the coast we come to the region of Samaria; Ascalo396 , a free town, Azotus397 , the two Jamnię398 , one of them in the in- [p. 1426] terior; and Joppe399 , a city of the Phœnicians, which existed, it is said, before the deluge of the earth. It is situate on the slope of a hill, and in front of it lies a rock, upon which they point out the vestiges of the chains by which Andromeda was bound400 . Here the fabulous goddess Ceto401 is worshipped. Next to this place comes Apollonia402 , and then the Tower of Strato403 , otherwise Cęsarea, built by [p. 1427] King Herod, but now the Colony of Prima Flavia, established by the Emperor Vespasianus: this place is the frontier town of Palęstina, at a distance of 188 miles from the confines of Arabia; after which comes Phœnice404 . In the interior of Samaria are the towns of Neapolis405 , formerly called Mamortha, Sebaste406 , situate on a mountain, and, on a still more lofty one, Gamala407 .

whilst the Greeks didnot worship ketos (she was a seamonster to them), these levantine folk did worship her as a goddess......or rather, we have a composite mythical creature worshiped as a god by the phoenicians of Joppe, that the greeks/romans equated with ketos.

notice pliny's use of the word fabulous....

.....not meaning, great/wonderful/splendid,

but 'fantastical'/make-believe/crazy/mythical/not real.

pliny does not believe in your ketos dc,

that's the last nail in the coffin on that one.

Anyways i have to confess.......I see dragonses....

i see one almost every week running around infront of me, doing all sorts of tricks.

We call him Cochyn.

on account of him being red.

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/images/wallpaper...yn-1024-768.jpg

Edited by lil gremlin, 25 February 2009 - 03:17 AM.

[draconic chronicler]

legionromanes on Feb 24 2009, 12:49 AM, said:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny9.html
this is physeter

Physeter macrocephalus - sperm whale

Yes, the sophisticated greeks and romans knew the difference between  whales, dolphins, sharks and sea dragons.  Their contemporary art of these animals is very clear on the subject as everyone reading this thread have seen.