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Dragons, myth and not universal gods


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#76    Mattshark

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 01:23 AM

draconic chronicler on Feb 28 2009, 12:53 AM, said:

No it doen't.  NO large constrictor swims in salt water oceans as pliny describes, but the ketos dragons, with their long periscoping necks in the air were believed to.  I thought you said you were a biologist?

Yes it does, you quote does not say keto's (nor does the actually quote not the version you copied and pasted with out reference. I mentions nothing of any long necks either.

Tufts University: Natural History - Pliny.]
If you are going to misrepresent a quote at least source it. I will put the site you got it from this time.
Have the same quote as you DC in the exact same fashion.
No excuse for plagiarism on a subject you claim to be so clued up on.

Edited by Mattshark, 28 February 2009 - 01:24 AM.

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#77    Undeadskeptic

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 05:04 AM

legionromanes on Feb 24 2009, 11:52 AM, said:

I couldn't agree more, DC has no idea of the basic facts surrounding mythology that he claims to be expert in and thinks that his preconceived ideas and speculations are a match for posted evidence. They aren't and Lil Gremlin quite rightly ripped him to pieces

good luck with your book DC you'll need it, any publishers option it yet ?
thumbsup.gif


Of course, publishers are swarming on a book about alien created bio-machine Dragons teaching humans how to brew beer authored by someone with no credit on his name in any area of Biology, History or Archeaology.

LOL!

laugh.gif


Jesus, I was evil

#78    Archosaur

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 06:02 AM

Undeadskeptic on Feb 28 2009, 12:04 AM, said:

Of course, publishers are swarming on a book about alien created bio-machine Dragons teaching humans how to brew beer authored by someone with no credit on his name in any area of Biology, History or Archeaology.

LOL!

laugh.gif


I don't think DC said that dragons taught mankind how to brew beer, just that they were fond of beer (after all, we are talking about an intellegent species).




#79    Saru

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 09:51 AM

Come on folks lets have less of the ad hominem remarks, and that applies to everyone.


#80    The Gremlin

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 10:47 AM

draconic chronicler on Feb 27 2009, 11:40 AM, said:

Ęthiopia produces dragons, not so large as those of India, but still, twenty cubits in length . . . We are told that on those coasts four or five [dragons] are found twisted and interlaced together like so many osiers in a hurdle, and thus setting sail, with their heads erect, they are borne along upon the waves, to find better sources of nourishment in Arabia. [Book 8, ch 13]

Source

By now you should have seen numerous ancient depictions of long necked reptilian 'sea dragons' on this thread, creatures which look surprisingly like the sea and lake monsters seen by hundreds of reliable people (including scientists) in modern times.

That refers to snakes as mattshark has pointed out.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#81    The Gremlin

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 12:22 PM

draconic chronicler on Feb 27 2009, 11:58 AM, said:

From the onset I stated that attributes of serpents and Dragons have been intermeshed, and this is echoed in the Wikipedia article and by many other sources, and you know this.  This is no better illustrated than in Greek/Hellenistic culture where either intelligent, bearded serpents that served the gods (or became the gods, as we seen in numerous legends), or winged and footed creatures by the identical name Drakon as we clearly see by the Hellenistic era.


no, you believe that ancient man worshiped quadrupedal, winged, giant reptiles...but have not provided any proof of them.

You say they were in close contact with bronze age advanced cultures......but cannot explain why the Greek ketos (more likely to be your dragon, so you say, than a drakon) is never quadrupedal, and only begins to look dragony well after the bronze age.

None of the drakones in greek myth meet your criteria until the Hellenistic age, and the Roman Imperial Age.....the evidence is against you.

The fact that 'serpent' is often interchangeable with 'dragon' is immaterial to this.....but what do you mean when you use it?

Are you trying to appropriate the support of source material that does not actually support you?



Quote

The Ketos were considered fearsome beasts that Pliny stated would attack ships.  Few people that got a close look probably lived to tell about it.  Yet we see in them an undeniably close resemblance to dragons depicted before and since this time.  Many of these creatures are clearly depicted with clawed "arms".  It would be difficult to know if the creatures had hind feet because they would be submerged under water.


We have seen that he means whale when he refers to these, unless killing winged quadrupeds for their blubber was a common practice.

Quote

The Hellenised people of Western Asia would have considered themselves 'Greek'. They spoke Greek, reead and wrote Greek, and worshipped Greek deities.i They even took the Greek name for their dragon god and not a local one.  It wold be appropriate then to state that 'Greeks' worshipped a 'dragon goddess', and not speculation, but a contemporary ancient account.    To state they were not "Greek" is as absurd as to say that anyone from a foreign culture that moves to  America and adopts american culture, is not an American.


Not really....the Greeks would have, but they were always greatly outnumbered by native peoples....most of whom in the urbane environment did Hellenize....but we know they worshiped their same gods, often repackaged in a Hellenistic style.
This is being horribly general, but its true of most of the Hellenized world. We dont know for instance whether the worship of ketos in the hellenistic levant, was a state/civic cult or whether it was less formal; we dont know whether the local population worshiped the ketos in its original name, but translated by pliny and Hellenism to ketos. We dont know how far the Greek inhabitants took part in these rituals, or viewed the practice.
(or at least i dont know, not having looked into it.)
The point is the worship of Ketos there was ungreek, it was a local custom that may or may not have been adopted by Greek settlers. It was unusual and peculiar enough for Pliny to mention it......if it were ordinary he would not have bothered.

And remember, he says the ketos was 'fabulous'.
He doesnt believe in it.

Quote

Therfore you CANNOT support the argument that "Greeks" did not worship a "dragon" deity whcich by this time is clearly recognized as a clawfooted, winged, long necked reptile.  And the Ketos shown on coins that obviously honored the deity look distinctively reptilian/dragon-like, though I do agree that some artists who have never seen a "sea dragon" might depict the ketos like a shark that he was more familiar with, but these images are clealry in the minority, compare to long necked reptilian sea dragons.


'which by this time'????
sounds like you are conceeding that the concept of 'dragon' was one that evolved.



I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#82    Dr. Peter Venkman

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 06:15 AM

linked-image
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#83    Paranoid Android

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 09:36 AM

I've just finished reading through the debate and I just wanted to share my thoughts.  I think both made interesting arguments, but I would have like a lot more structure from both members to help keep track of where in the debate we were (the debate went almost two extra posts than advertised before someone brought in their own comments).  Gremlin did try to shape his post with an Introduction and an attempted conclusion, though the information in the middle did not appear to follow any particular train of thought.  DC did not do either of these, immediately beginning with refutation of the Introduction, and no adequate concluding remarks.

The information from both was interesting, but I have to award the points to Gremlin for much better use of source material.  While DC did provide a few links and images, they were few and refuted by Gremlin effectively.  In turn, Gremlin provided lots of images supporting his statements.  DC relied heavily on conjecture and supposition to support his view, which did not help his view.

Both argued compellingly though, and if we were to presume that both views were true, DC has the edge, particularly in the middle of the debate when discussing the nature of Zeus.  However, without anything of substance to back up his comments, I cannot take his views seriously.  He may be right, but I need much more supporting evidence before anyone could award him victory in this debate.  

Gremlin relied far more on supporting evidence, particularly images of dragons and Gryphons, to share his view.  The few pictures that DC shared had more in common with snakes (legless, wingless) than traditional dragons.  It would take a large leap in logic to jump from these pictures to widespread worship of fire-breathing god-like beings with scales, wings, four legs and such.  And that was, after all, the purpose of the debate.  

And that is my final thought on the debate.  Thanks to both Gremlin and DC for contributing thumbsup.gif

~ PA

edit:  finished writing my comment - just noticed I left my last sentence unfinished (must have got sidetracked by something at the time, lol) tongue.gif

Edited by Paranoid Android, 01 March 2009 - 12:58 PM.

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#84    The Gremlin

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 12:48 PM

Paranoid Android on Mar 1 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

I've just finished reading through the debate and I just wanted to share my thoughts.  I think both made interesting arguments, but I would have like a lot more structure from both members to help keep track of where in the debate we were (the debate went almost two extra posts than advertised before someone brought in their own comments).  Gremlin did try to shape his post with an Introduction and an attempted conclusion, though the information in the middle did not appear to follow any particular train of thought.  DC did not do either of these, immediately beginning with refutation of the Introduction, and no adequate concluding remarks.

The information from both was interesting, but I have to award the points to Gremlin for much better use of source material.  While DC did provide a few links and images, they were few and refuted by Gremlin effectively.  In turn, Gremlin provided lots of images supporting his statements.  DC relied heavily on conjecture and supposition to support his view, which did not help his view.

Both argued compellingly though, and if we were to presume that both views were true, DC has the edge, particularly in the middle of the debate when discussing the nature of Zeus.  However, without anything of substance to back up his comments, I cannot take his views seriously.  He may be right, but I need much more supporting evidence before anyone could award him victory in this debate.  

Gremlin relied far more on supporting evidence, particularly images of dragons and Gryphons, to share his view.  The few pictures that DC shared had more in common with snakes (legless, wingless) than traditional dragons.  It would take a large leap in logic to jump from these pictures to widespread worship of fire-breathing god-like beings, which was what .  

And that is my final thought on the debate.  Thanks to both Gremlin and DC for contributing thumbsup.gif

~ PA


thanks PA for your thoughts. I think that you've given a pretty fair reflection of the debate.  
8 posts seems like loads at the start, i thought id have loads of time and space to effectively deal with all of the things i intended to in my introduction.
i think the structure of my argument broke down as i realised that 8 was nowhere near enough for what i had planned. Instead i confined my attention to one or two points i saw as critical for DC's argument.
I think that if i do another debate ill have a better idea of what's achievable.


I agree DC's argument is compelling, largely due i think to his style of presentation: As you noted it is a complete lack of real supporting evidence that is against him, showing that his initial statement cannot be true... that it is indeed speculation and not fact. By sticking to the Greek culture and not branching off as originally intended DC was unable to hopscotch around different cultures, something his theory relies on, to give his argument the impression of continuity. When forced to examine any one of his assertions in more critical depth than he would like, we see his argument break down.

your last sentence seems incomplete, an enigmatic final thought? huh.gif  original.gif

Edited by lil gremlin, 01 March 2009 - 01:17 PM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#85    draconic chronicler

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 12:31 PM

lil gremlin on Feb 28 2009, 04:47 AM, said:

That refers to snakes as mattshark has pointed out.


No, Mattshark said this referred known snakes like rock pythons, but rock pythons to not live in oceans and salt seas, only small, poisonous sea snakes.

Therefore what is being described here are Ketos/drakons that can raise their heads above the water.  Pliny also explains how to repel them from ships.  They are not pythons or sea snakes.  Neither attacks ships.


#86    The Gremlin

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 12:45 PM

draconic chronicler on Mar 3 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

No, Mattshark said this referred known snakes like rock pythons, but rock pythons to not live in oceans and salt seas, only small, poisonous sea snakes.

Therefore what is being described here are Ketos/drakons that can raise their heads above the water.  Pliny also explains how to repel them from ships.  They are not pythons or sea snakes.  Neither attacks ships.

linked-image

this is pretty much what is being described.....snakes in a breeding ball IMO.

constrictors cant swim???

there is a footnote for this passage on the perseus project...

Quote

Cuvier remarks, that there are no serpents with crests on the head, and that Juba must have been thinking probably of some animal of the genus lacertus, when he made this statement. We may here remark, that the "basiliscus," or "king of serpents," was said by the poets to have a crown on its head, as denoting its kingly rank. See c. 33 of this Book.


which may be more appropriate...but cruicially, pliny had no idea what he was talking about.

although as both myself and Mattshark have mentioned, pliny never witnessed this phenomenon, never visited either india or ethiopia.....he just got tall tales about it....he is not reliable on the subject, hence his misconceptions.

and ketos are whales according to pliny.

Edited by lil gremlin, 03 March 2009 - 01:03 PM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#87    draconic chronicler

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 01:02 PM

Undeadskeptic on Feb 27 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

Of course, publishers are swarming on a book about alien created bio-machine Dragons teaching humans how to brew beer authored by someone with no credit on his name in any area of Biology, History or Archeaology.

LOL!

laugh.gif


I expect no more from an immature teenager.  Your attention span is so  short short (typical of children your age) that you cannot even remember what I actually have said.

  One of my history-oriented  books is still for sale in the Museum of London and is pubished in four languages.  I have published papers in archaeological journals, though none of this has anything to do with 'dragons'.  I am the director of a major military museum, and have regularly appeared on History Channel programs. I have been invited to give lectures on experimental archaeology.  But understand that I do not want to reveal my true identity on an internet populated by juvenile delinquents who could make mischeif with it, but there are adults here who know who I am.   The dragon book may be published under another name because of its controversial nature, particualrly among religious sectors.

Perhaps it is because  you know that you will never amount to much of anything, that you love to attack other people so much.  Hopefully you will someday "grow up" and behave like an adult.


#88    chaoszerg

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 01:06 PM

draconic chronicler on Mar 3 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

One of my history-oriented  books is still for sale in the Museum of London and is pubished in four languages.  I have published papers in archaeological journals, though none of this has anything to do with 'dragons'.  I am the director of a major military museum, and have regularly appeared on History Channel programs. I have been invited to give lectures on experimental archaeology.  But understand that I do not want to reveal my true identity on an internet populated by juvenile delinquents who could make mischeif with it, but there are adults here who know who I am.   The dragon book may be published under another name because of its controversial nature, particualrly among religious sectors.



So basically what you are saying is that I have done this and that and have been on this and that but I don't want to reveal my identity so sorry guys you cant check it out to see if I'm telling the truth or If I am lying through my teeth.


#89    draconic chronicler

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 01:15 PM

lil gremlin on Mar 3 2009, 06:45 AM, said:

linked-image

this is pretty much what is being described.....snakes in a breeding ball IMO.

constrictors cant swim???

there is a footnote for this passage on the perseus project...



which may be more appropriate...but cruicially, pliny had no idea what he was talking about.

although as both myself and Mattshark have mentioned, pliny never witnessed this phenomenon, never visited either india or ethiopia.....he just got tall tales about it....he is not reliable on the subject, hence his misconceptions.

and ketos are whales according to pliny.


Pliny acknowledged both  whales and sea going drakons.  As for the Drakons of Ethiopia the quote is above.  He states the creatures heads tower high in the air, catching the wind while they are swimming, unlike snakes, but exactly like ketos are portrayed.  Pliny states they are real.  He even refers to ways to repell "drakons" from ships, referred to in some sources, though I have not read the specific passage.

Understand that by Plinys time, terms like drakon and ketos were interchangable.   Drakons were  described flying in the sky with wings and preying on elephants.

Yes, large constrictors can swim, but they don't in salt water.



#90    The Gremlin

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 01:18 PM

draconic chronicler on Mar 3 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

I expect no more from an immature teenager.  Your attention span is so  short short (typical of children your age) that you cannot even remember what I actually have said.

  One of my history-oriented  books is still for sale in the Museum of London and is pubished in four languages.  I have published papers in archaeological journals, though none of this has anything to do with 'dragons'.  I am the director of a major military museum, and have regularly appeared on History Channel programs. I have been invited to give lectures on experimental archaeology.  But understand that I do not want to reveal my true identity on an internet populated by juvenile delinquents who could make mischeif with it, but there are adults here who know who I am.   The dragon book may be published under another name because of its controversial nature, particualrly among religious sectors.

Perhaps it is because  you know that you will never amount to much of anything, that you love to attack other people so much.  Hopefully you will someday "grow up" and behave like an adult.



a few things crossed my mind while reading this....

does the book come with crayons, or do you have to buy those seperately?.....

....is the book as 'reliable' as your one about dragons is?....if so, is it in the 'fiction' section?

....seriously though, you shouldnt make these wild claims if you are unprepared to back them up.

someone who makes such wild claims in your position has to be prepared for at least some gentle ribbing.  wink2.gif

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter




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