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Why can't non muslims go to mecca?


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#1    karl 12

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 04:22 PM

In the U.K. ,muslims often complain of inequality,intolerance and racism (even though islam is just an opinion and not a geographical location).
I agree that equality is all important and that,despite of people's opinions,we are all of the same worth.
That said,why is it that if I go to Mecca as a non muslim (unworthy kuffar) I will not be permittted entrance?
If I then persist ,find a way into mecca and am found there ,I will then get up to one year in prison (and after that extradited).
I can visit any other 'religious' location on the planet with no problems whatsoever-what makes muslims so special?
I actualy read a horrific report that described how one taxi driver who ended up in mecca after a wrong turn got dragged out of his car,beaten and murdered just for being a 'non beleiver'.
What is wrong with this organised religious mindset?
Isn't  tolerance is a two way street?
Has it got more to do with delusional superiority complexes and bigotted insecurity?

Edited by karl 12, 18 October 2008 - 04:59 PM.


#2    karl 12

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 06:52 PM

How Saudi Arabian authorities see non muslims as criminals:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_s..._attacks_s.html
It appears they use Kuffar fingerprinting technology.

Edited by karl 12, 18 October 2008 - 06:53 PM.


#3    Mr Walker

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 11:19 PM

Its not as strange as it seems ,or as sinister, or really as divisive. Christianity had thousands of such  sites on a minor scale and may still have some. They were called cloistered monasteries. With very few excetpions only priests/monks were allowed into these and any other visitors allowed would have been devout christians.
As a young man i encountered closed  places (nunneries or monasteries for women) where nuns lived, completely isolated from external life. Very few people could enter those areas.
The jewish temple, from the time of its inception as a portable tent, was only allowed to be entered by the most devout priestly caste. I have heard, but dont know if this is true that they had a rope attached to their leg, so that if they died or became unconscious they could be pulled out from the most holy part of the temple without anyone else having to enter it. In many melanesian/polynesian societies there are houses for menstruating women and no one else is allowed in them.
In at least one such culture there was a house where, if you broke one of the taboos punishable by death, you could find refuge. You had to stay there for a lengthy period of time to ensure your safety and  evidence that any "curse" resulting from your actions had worn off.

Alll these restrictions are based on beliefs, and particular rationalisations within  those beliefs. If a religion/group believes a most holy place should only be accesible to that group, this seems reasonable. After all, it is their belief which has made the place holy and thus to a non believer access should not really matter one way or another. Its a bit like the forbidden fruit. Even if we dont like the taste, we want to try it just because its forbidden.

Apart from the laws and sanctions involved, its a bit rude and ignorant to try and sneak your way in, like gate-crashing a party to which you are not invited.

Australian aboriginal people have ceremonies which are restricted to groups like; initiated men, women, or totem /clan groups. Within their beliefs there are good reasons for restricting access to such ceremonies, and also to the landscapes involved with them.
I dont have the spiritual belief of an australian aboriginal person, but i would not want to encroach on a ceremony or landscape where i was not welcome. And i do not feel either threatened or excluded by this, because i can understand and respect their beliefs, while not agreeing with them.




Edited by Mr Walker, 18 October 2008 - 11:33 PM.

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#4    TheKnight

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 12:07 AM

karl 12 on Oct 18 2008, 09:22 AM, said:

In the U.K. ,muslims often complain of inequality,intolerance and racism (even though islam is just an opinion and not a geographical location).
I agree that equality is all important and that,despite of people's opinions,we are all of the same worth.
That said,why is it that if I go to Mecca as a non muslim (unworthy kuffar) I will not be permittted entrance?
If I then persist ,find a way into mecca and am found there ,I will then get up to one year in prison (and after that extradited).
I can visit any other 'religious' location on the planet with no problems whatsoever-what makes muslims so special?
I actualy read a horrific report that described how one taxi driver who ended up in mecca after a wrong turn got dragged out of his car,beaten and murdered just for being a 'non beleiver'.
What is wrong with this organised religious mindset?
Isn't  tolerance is a two way street?
Has it got more to do with delusional superiority complexes and bigotted insecurity?

My question to you is, if Mecca is a Muslim holy site, why is it you feel that you need to go there so badly? It is a religious site (as you have admitted) so what reason would you (a non religious person) have to go there? The answer to that is you wouldn't have a good reason. Of course I don't think getting lost is all that bad, you shouldn't complain about it if you blatantly break a law and get punished for it.


#5    Paranoid Android

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 12:57 AM

I would wonder how a person would know you are not a Muslim if you went to Mecca.  Do you have an ID card that says, "I am Muslim, do not lynch" and if you don't produce it on request you're taken away and shot.  The only conceivable way for non-Muslims to be targeted is to walk in there with a sign saying, "I am an infidel and Mohamed wears diapers".  And if you're going to do that at the most holy site of Islamic Faith, then you deserve to be thrown into a Muslim jail by Muslims in a Muslim-run country.  At the very least for being so disrespectful to what the millions who make the pilgrimage see as the most Holy day of their lives (every Muslim is required to make the pilgrimage at least once in their lifetime unless they are financially unable - if they have the means, they are bound to go at least once).    

It is possible that there might be more scrutiny on a "westerner" who made the pilgrimage to Mecca, but with the rise of Islam in the West, I doubt it would be a major issue.  

I'm not sure where this story came from about the taxi-driver who was pulled from his vehicle, but how did the crowd who lynched him know he wasn't a Muslim?  Was he wearing an "I Love Jesus" T-shirt when he got out to ask directions?  Do the authorities have detailed number-plates and identify Muslim and non-Muslim drivers?  

The whole thing sounds a little implausible to me, unless the people advertise their non-Muslim beliefs (or perhaps anti-Muslim beliefs) which is just totally disrespectful for the millions who make what is the most holy trip in their entire lives.  

Just my observation,

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#6    Leonardo

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 03:38 AM

While I'm not suggesting that Muslims are alone in denying access to a sanctified place to non-believers, I would like to ask, what is sanctity? If god - in the case mentioned one of the montheistic deities and therefore presumably a 'god of everyone' whether they realise it (believers) or not (unbelievers) - is truly god then surely any place, item etc, considered 'holy' is a place for everyone.

Exclusion, in these cases, such as cloistered monasteries, the Temple in Jerusalem and Mecca, smack to me of elitism. Is this a practice demanded by the various religions involved?

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#7    TheKnight

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 03:54 AM

Paranoid Android on Oct 18 2008, 05:57 PM, said:

I would wonder how a person would know you are not a Muslim if you went to Mecca.  Do you have an ID card that says, "I am Muslim, do not lynch" and if you don't produce it on request you're taken away and shot.  The only conceivable way for non-Muslims to be targeted is to walk in there with a sign saying, "I am an infidel and Mohamed wears diapers".  And if you're going to do that at the most holy site of Islamic Faith, then you deserve to be thrown into a Muslim jail by Muslims in a Muslim-run country.  At the very least for being so disrespectful to what the millions who make the pilgrimage see as the most Holy day of their lives (every Muslim is required to make the pilgrimage at least once in their lifetime unless they are financially unable - if they have the means, they are bound to go at least once).    

It is possible that there might be more scrutiny on a "westerner" who made the pilgrimage to Mecca, but with the rise of Islam in the West, I doubt it would be a major issue.  

I'm not sure where this story came from about the taxi-driver who was pulled from his vehicle, but how did the crowd who lynched him know he wasn't a Muslim?  Was he wearing an "I Love Jesus" T-shirt when he got out to ask directions?  Do the authorities have detailed number-plates and identify Muslim and non-Muslim drivers?  

The whole thing sounds a little implausible to me, unless the people advertise their non-Muslim beliefs (or perhaps anti-Muslim beliefs) which is just totally disrespectful for the millions who make what is the most holy trip in their entire lives.  

Just my observation,

~ PA

Muslims, like Jews, have distinct clothing traditions that would make it obvious if you aren't a Muslim. Many of them do not shave their beards and/or wear turbans. That would probably be the best way. If you are clean-shaven and not wearing a turban they probably ask about you.


Leonardo on Oct 18 2008, 08:38 PM, said:

While I'm not suggesting that Muslims are alone in denying access to a sanctified place to non-believers, I would like to ask, what is sanctity? If god - in the case mentioned one of the montheistic deities and therefore presumably a 'god of everyone' whether they realise it (believers) or not (unbelievers) - is truly god then surely any place, item etc, considered 'holy' is a place for everyone.

Exclusion, in these cases, such as cloistered monasteries, the Temple in Jerusalem and Mecca, smack to me of elitism. Is this a practice demanded by the various religions involved?

As far as the Temple, it "shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples" (Isaiah 56). However, there are some parts (like in the inner sanctuary) where only certain people are allowed. It's not a matter of elitism but of observance. If you're not as observant and are less involved, it would be disrespectful for you to enter that holy place in such a condition. Elitism is elevating a certain group to a point that no one else can get to. It isn't elitism if everyone can reach that point if they want to. If you're non-religious and want to go to a religious place that is forbidden to non-religious people, then the owners of the place aren't being elitists because you could always become religious if you really wanna go there.


#8    Leonardo

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 04:06 AM

~HaParash~ on Oct 19 2008, 04:54 AM, said:

As far as the Temple, it "shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples" (Isaiah 56). However, there are some parts (like in the inner sanctuary) where only certain people are allowed. It's not a matter of elitism but of observance. If you're not as observant and are less involved, it would be disrespectful for you to enter that holy place in such a condition. Elitism is elevating a certain group to a point that no one else can get to. It isn't elitism if everyone can reach that point if they want to. If you're non-religious and want to go to a religious place that is forbidden to non-religious people, then the owners of the place aren't being elitists because you could always become religious if you really wanna go there.


I'm sorry, HaParash, but 'disrespectful' implies those who enter the areas are 'worthy of respect' and this is elitism.

What you are forgetting is that god didn't make these rules, people did. People, of course, will say that god made these rules, but people will say what they want.

If something is of god, it should be of god for everyone, and not just some who think they are somehow more 'holy' than others.

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#9    Paranoid Android

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 06:30 AM

Leonardo on Oct 19 2008, 03:06 PM, said:

I'm sorry, HaParash, but 'disrespectful' implies those who enter the areas are 'worthy of respect' and this is elitism.

What you are forgetting is that god didn't make these rules, people did. People, of course, will say that god made these rules, but people will say what they want.

If something is of god, it should be of god for everyone, and not just some who think they are somehow more 'holy' than others.
Clubs have dress standards and if you aren't wearing the right pants and collared shirt, or if said clothes are dirty, they have the right to exclude you on the basis of the clothes you wear.  Is this being "disrespectful" to "exclude" certain members from the club on basis of what they wear?  Does this imply that those that are allowed in are thus "worthy of respect"?


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#10    TheKnight

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 06:32 AM

Leonardo on Oct 18 2008, 09:06 PM, said:

I'm sorry, HaParash, but 'disrespectful' implies those who enter the areas are 'worthy of respect' and this is elitism.

What you are forgetting is that god didn't make these rules, people did. People, of course, will say that god made these rules, but people will say what they want.

If something is of god, it should be of god for everyone, and not just some who think they are somehow more 'holy' than others.

It doesn't matter who made the rule. If I were to own property and I were to place conditions on that property, then it would be perfectly fair.

Ok, so let's say that we are implying that those who enter are "worthy of respect". Elitism is only elitism if other people aren't able to reach the point your at. If you can reach the point where you're "worthy of respect" then we're not being elitist. It's like a hospital saying "you can't come into the operating room unless you're  a surgeon". Would it be elitist for the hospital to say that? Or would it just be having standards for that which is considered important. A non-religious person's lack of respect of something isn't validation for that person to go and be rude and intruding. I mean, just as a person could become a surgeon and gain entry to the operating room, so could a person become religious and gain entrance into the religious site. People these days have no sense of property or respect for other people or their things and (quite frankly) it's disgusting. People think they should be allowed to do whatever the hell "makes them happy" and God forbid anyone should tell them no.


Besides, why would a religious person want to go to a religious site? What difference does it make?

Edited by ~HaParash~, 19 October 2008 - 06:35 AM.


#11    Bill Hill

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 06:40 AM


Why can't non muslims go to mecca?
I think the reason is,  a non muslim westerner might be able to point out- it's not a 'holy magic rock from god' but in fact a meteorite.

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#12    Paranoid Android

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 08:43 AM

Bill Hill on Oct 19 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

Why can't non muslims go to mecca?
I think the reason is,  a non muslim westerner might be able to point out- it's not a 'holy magic rock from god' but in fact a meteorite.
Just curious, but do you actually know why Mecca is sacred to the Islamic people?  By this comment, it sounds like you do not.

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#13    fullywired

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 09:18 AM

Leonardo on Oct 19 2008, 04:38 AM, said:

While I'm not suggesting that Muslims are alone in denying access to a sanctified place to non-believers, I would like to ask, what is sanctity? If god - in the case mentioned one of the montheistic deities and therefore presumably a 'god of everyone' whether they realise it (believers) or not (unbelievers) - is truly god then surely any place, item etc, considered 'holy' is a place for everyone.

Exclusion, in these cases, such as cloistered monasteries, the Temple in Jerusalem and Mecca, smack to me of elitism. Is this a practice demanded by the various religions involved?



I am with you on this ,the Muslims are forever saying there is only one God ,so the God that other religions worship must be the same one ,So why would God exclude anyone from the holy place .? It is a man made rule in my opinion with no logic behind it and does smack of elitism as you said


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#14    Leonardo

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 09:50 AM

Paranoid Android on Oct 19 2008, 07:30 AM, said:

Clubs have dress standards and if you aren't wearing the right pants and collared shirt, or if said clothes are dirty, they have the right to exclude you on the basis of the clothes you wear.  Is this being "disrespectful" to "exclude" certain members from the club on basis of what they wear?  Does this imply that those that are allowed in are thus "worthy of respect"?


If you wish to consider religion as being a club, PA, then I would agree with you. You might wish to assess what a club actually is though in light of making this (implied) analogy. As far as I am aware, clubs are only clubs because they promote exclusivity.

~HaParash~ on Oct 19 2008, 07:32 AM, said:

It doesn't matter who made the rule. If I were to own property and I were to place conditions on that property, then it would be perfectly fair.

Ok, so let's say that we are implying that those who enter are "worthy of respect". Elitism is only elitism if other people aren't able to reach the point your at. If you can reach the point where you're "worthy of respect" then we're not being elitist. It's like a hospital saying "you can't come into the operating room unless you're  a surgeon". Would it be elitist for the hospital to say that? Or would it just be having standards for that which is considered important. A non-religious person's lack of respect of something isn't validation for that person to go and be rude and intruding. I mean, just as a person could become a surgeon and gain entry to the operating room, so could a person become religious and gain entrance into the religious site. People these days have no sense of property or respect for other people or their things and (quite frankly) it's disgusting. People think they should be allowed to do whatever the hell "makes them happy" and God forbid anyone should tell them no.


Besides, why would a religious person want to go to a religious site? What difference does it make?


So, HaParash, the Temple inner sanctum is not a place of God, but a place belonging to Jews?

I didn't bother to correct your definition of elitism before, but I will have to as you insist on stating it only applies in the case of an actual ability. Elitism is exlcusion based on perceived superiority, it has nothing to do with actual ability or knowledge etc. As with PA's club analogy, your surgeon analogy is false because, for one, it is not only a surgeon who is allowed into an operating theatre and, secondly, a surgeon is allowed to practice based on recognised ability and knowledge - not on perceived superiority.

Now, you are the only person bringing the subject of disrespect in to the discussion. Why is it disrespectful to admire places of worship? I have been to many cathedrals, a mosque or two and other places where religious worship has taken place and I can appreciate the places as being worthy of admiration without believing in the religion those who frequent them practice. As for the rest of your exclamations, I can only suggest you calm down as you appear to be over-reacting. Perhaps aggression and bluster is your only defence in the face of reason?

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#15    Zeeshan - (Twisted!)

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 10:18 AM

May Peace Be On You...

Ever heard of Cantonment Area?
A Civilian is not allowed there in many cases...
Same goes for Mecca, Non-Muslims cannot go there, it's a sacred place which has it's own respects which must be fulfilled, and it might be possible that non-Muslims might not be able to fulfill these...

You have to qualify certain requirements to be there and being a believer (as per Islam) is the requirement. You can understand it like this: not all civilians are allowed in some cantonment areas or high security areas. You need a certain permit to be there. Its the same with Mecca. In this case the permit is being a Muslim. Also please note that Mecca as a city has no significance. The only significance is the presence of Haram (or Kaaba) over there. So what would a non muslim want to do there? Kaaba is not a touristic site. Its a place of worship. If someone does not worship God, then why does he want to waste time being there?

Hope that helps...

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