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Chinese in the Americas


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#1    UM-Debate-Bot

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 11:20 PM

fightthefuture vs justcauseinaz

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#2    fightthefuture

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 01:17 AM

Introduction

I would like to see your sources, for I have never heard or seen anything to suggest the hint of the chinese arriving on western north american shores or any where else futher to the south. its like suggesting nuclear power at 100'000 bc!


#3    AzTide

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 07:49 PM

fightthefuture on Oct 21 2008, 01:17 AM, said:

Introduction

I would like to see your sources, for I have never heard or seen anything to suggest the hint of the chinese arriving on western north american shores or any where else futher to the south. its like suggesting nuclear power at 100'000 bc!


Here are 3 I'll get more if you want............


You might find this interesting I did...

THE EARLY YEARS OF THE CANADIAN NORTHWEST PREHISTORY
http://agt.net/public/dgarneau/B.C.1.htm


3,000 B.C.

Some believe that Asians established trading posts around the North Pacific rim based upon ancient Chinese coins incorporated into British Columbia artifacts. The Asian technology of sailing is sufficient for return trips across the Pacific at this time. The Athapascan speaking people are believed to have originally emigrated from Asia in skin boats about 3,000 to 1,000 B.C.

Between 3,000 to 2,500 B.C. Epi-Jomon (bone-spoons) of Ainu origin have been found in Siberia and British Columbia. The Ainu are a European type culture from Japan. Their origins are not known but they were a sea going people early in their development before being suppressed by the later arriving Japanese. Some of their boats were 50 feet long about half the size of European ships of the fifteenth century. Basket and mask making by the Ainu may have influenced the cultures of the Pacific West Coast People and the Eskimo (Inuit).

The Kootenay (meaning water people) lived on the shores of the Kootenay Lakes starting 3,000 to 2,000 B.C..

The Haida on Haida Gwaii (Queen Charlotte Islands) are in significant numbers (8,000? or more)

2,637 B.C.

Emperor Huungti of China minted a coin and in 1882 James Dean, a United States Naturalist, discovered thirty of these coins in De Foe (Deorse?) Creek, Cassiar District of British Columbia about twenty-five feet below the compacted surface.

2,300 B.C.

Yuquot a Mowachaht (Nootka) Village dates from this time.

Cjinese Emperior Yao dispatched two surveyors to explore the known world and beyond. Ta Chang and Shu Hai survived the ordeal and was published as Shan Hai Ching (The classic of the Mountains and Rivers) published in 32 volumes of which 1/2 survived. It is believed they reached America.

219 B.C.

Emperor Chhin Shih Huang Ti dispatched explorer Hsu Fu to the Pacific Ocean in search of magical beings and strange things among the mysterious, undiscovered islands of the immortals. Hsu Fu returned years later with news of astounding success and said the wizard of the island would give the emperor immortality if he would send young men of good birth and breeding together with apt virgins and workmen of all the trades. The Emperor is enthralled and built Hsu Fu a vast, richly provisioned fleet, bearing three thousand men and women, and sent them to sea. Ssuma Chhien the historian writing in 90 B.C. noted Hsu Fu must have found some calm and fertile plain, with broad forests and rich marches, where he made himself king. At any rate, he never came back to China. Many believe they settled in British Columbia to become part of the Canadian Pacific Peoples.

Shan Hai Ching (Classic of the Mountains and Rivers) is sited as evidence of the Chinese visit to the Fu Sang (Americas). Others suggest it is mythological and not geographical. Some believe the Shan Hai Ching represents a geographical survey conducted by Ta-Chang and Shu-Hai during the reign of the Emperior Yao about 23,000 B.C. Others suggest it was rewritten about 202 B.C. to 9 A.D. and half the writings are missing. It is noteworthy that Asians writings are held in scorn but European writings are esteemed. It's possible our culture has a significant built in cultural bias.


458 A.D.

Between 458 and 566 during the period of 'Great Brightness' there are five Chinese Buddhist priests in Fu Sang (British Columbia) and they are recorded in the Cathay Year Book of that era and they called the land Fu Sang which means 'The Extreme East' and they recorded it was 'wonderful'.. Some believe Fu Sang means the extreme east (others suggest it’s the name of a tree), and the notation went on to say it is a wonderful place. The natives made cloth from the bark of a giant tree and extracted oil from fish. Reports suggest they went on to explore down the coast to California. Hwui Shan (Hui Shen or Hoei-Shin) (Huishen) a Buddhist priest claimed to have traveled 7,000 miles East from China then went inland 350 miles to the Grand Canyon then on to Mexico. There is little doubt that the Chinese are exploring Fu Sang (America) during the next half century especially in the Mexico region. Hwui Shan (Huishen) returned in 499 to report the people of Fu Sang (America) had a written language and made paper from the bark of the fu sang tree. Their cities have no walls as they do not fight in that country. A Chinese anchor is discovered off the coast of California. Others suggest Fu Sang refers to Japan, others say it is Mexico. It is believed they traveled down from the Pacific Northwest including British Columbia. Some believe these expeditions are the first visit to Vancouver Island. Some suggest Hwui Shan crossed the Pacific first to Mexico then followed the coast north to Alaska before returning home.

499

It is reported that Hwui Shan (Hu-shen, Heoi-shin or Hoei-shin) sail to Fu Sang (America) from China this year. It is not know if he is part of the five men Pikiu (Sanskrit, Bhikshu) expedition to Fu Sang in 485. They reported traveling across forests and high mountains. The Fu Sang people had a system of law and order. The Pikiu party taught the Buddhist religion to the people. Mayan tradition called these people Kukulcan who had neither wife nor child and came from the West.

500

The Haida Peoples of British Columbia considered the Ocean as a great salt river, the current of which would probably lead somewhere. Some believe they may have voyaged to the Hawaiian Islands. The culture of the Canadian west coast Peoples remains fairly constant between now and first contact with Asian and European peoples.

Hoei Shin (Hui Shen), a Chinese Buddhist Monk, described a expedition to Fusant (Fusang), a land to the east that resembled present-day British Columbia. It is believed he departed Nanking during the Sung Dynasty (420-479) and returned during the Ch'i Dynasty (479-502). Mention of this expedition are recorded in Liang Dynasty (502-557); and in 629 by Yao Silian (557-637). The People of Fusang do not live according to the laws of Buddha.

The Nez Perce culture, that included a belief in God, is believed to have originated north of the mouth of the Columbia River where they began working their way upstream. Many consider this culture as a very peaceful loving People who were exploited in the future by a very savage United States culture both individually and collectively by their Government.

570

Budast Monks led by Hoo Shen sailed 7,000 miles East from China and 350 miles on land to the Grand Canyon. They then explored south to central Fu Sang (America). Mayan artifacts clearly indicate a Chinese influence in support of this Chinese report. This expedition likely passed through the Pacific Northwest. Some place this expedition earlier or later.

1405

Admiral Zheng He aka Ma He (Cheng Ho) (1371-1435) dispatched 317 ships with 27,870 men, women and children to collect tribute from the barbarians from beyond the seas. The Chinese Emperor wanted 'All under heaven' to be civilized in Confucian Harmony. Admiral Zheng He aka Ma He (Cheng Ho) (1371-1435) personally conducted 7 voyages of exploration between 1405 to 1433, the first being 62 of his 317 ships this year in search of the former emperor who fled likely toward Fu Sang (America). Each fleet of ship was self contained including onboard gardens. Chinese artifacts discovered in Fu Sang (America) suggests some of the Chinese fleet landed on both the east and west coast of the Fu Sang (Americas). The largest flag ship was 400 feet in length with a beam of 160 feet. The main fleet sailed to Calicut, India and back (1405-1407) in trade.

1407

Admiral Zheng He aka Ma He (Cheng Ho) (1371-1435) made a 2nd trading trip to India returning in 1409.

1409

The 3rd Chinese expedition consisted of 48 ships and 30,000 men and the King of Ceylon (Sri Lanka became aggressive and was defeated and taken as prisoner back to China. This trip was (1409-1411).

1410

At Neakahnie Beach, Oregon, Ming porcelain is found on netarts sand spit. A pulley is dated to 1410 and it is believed a Chinese junk went down off shore based on other Chinese records.

Parts of a ships wooden hull is discovered off the coast of Sacramento, California

1412

The 4th expedition consisted of 63 ships, 28,560 men and sailed to the Persian Gulf at Hormuz, then south to Mozambique. This trip was (1412-1415)

1417

The 5th expedition (1417-1419) repeated the 4th expedition.

1418

A Chinese map of 1418 clearly shows Australia, North and South America. This appears to be compiled on the 4th expedition of Admiral Cheng Ho (1371-1435).

1421 6th Chinese expedition (1421-1422) repeat of 4th & 5th expedition but the whole fleet was likely not committed to this routine run.



Admiral Zheng He aka Ma He (Cheng Ho) (1371-1435), a Muslim eunuch, commanded the Chinese navy that consisted of 317 ships with 28,000 to 38,000 sailors. It is believed his navy explored Fu Sang (America) on several occasions. China at this time had the largest ships and the biggest fleet in the world. The flag ship was 475 feet long, by 193 feet wide, European ships by contrast were about 100 feet long. Europe at this time was considered an uncultured backwater place by the Chinese with nothing of value in trade. Admiral Zheng the explorer circumnavigated the world for Emperor Yong Le visiting 30 countries returning October 23, 1427. About this time the Rhode Island Tower believed to be built by Chinese colonists that were abandoned due to a ship wreck. The Tower is believed to be a light house likely to signal the Chinese navy. The total fleet is recorded to have visited 1,000 countries.

The Netarts Sand Pits in Oregon contained porcelain from the Chinese Emperor Zhu Di's reign which is the same time period of Zheng He around the world trip.

Vancouver Island appears on a map of 1507 and it is called Colonia, Chinois. The Squamish people reported the Chinese visited Vancouver Island before the Europeans.

1431

The 7th and final expedition of Admiral Zheng He aka Ma He (Cheng Ho) (1371-1435), with 100 ships and 27,500 men sailed for Malacca, Siam, Australia and America. The trip was (1431-1433).



1479

Fu Sang (American) Peoples legend suggests a shipwreck occurred on Tillamook Beach (Neahkahnie), Oregon. This likely suggests there were survivors who were absorbed into the local culture.

1450

The Chase burial site of the Shuswap on the north bank of the South Thompson River, three miles west of Chase is believed used 1400 to 1750, it contains samples of non-aboriginal copper believed to precede the Europeans by 50 years or 1750. Several sites between Lytton and Lillooet have similar artifacts as Chase. Others suggest the time frame is 1200 to 1800.





Here's even more...

Below is a link to on NOVA online and uses a New York Times journalist as its reference for the size of the ships and the fleet’s size. I also added a cut from the article.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers.html

In 1999, New York Times journalist Nicholas D. Kristof reported a surprising encounter on a tiny African island called Pate, just off the coast of Kenya. Here, in a village of stone huts set amongst dense mangrove trees, Kristof met a number of elderly men who told him that they were descendants of Chinese sailors, shipwrecked on Pate many centuries ago. Their ancestors had traded with the local Africans, who had given them giraffes to take back to China; then their boat was driven onto the nearby reef. Kristof noted many clues that seemed to confirm the islanders' tale, including their vaguely Asian appearance and the presence of antique porcelain heirlooms in their homes.

If Kristof's supposition is correct, then this remote African outpost retains an echo of one of history's most astonishing episodes of maritime exploration.

Six centuries ago, a mighty armada of Chinese ships crossed the China Sea, and then ventured west to Ceylon, Arabia, and East Africa. The fleet consisted of giant nine-masted junks, escorted by dozens of supply ships, water tankers, transports for cavalry horses, and patrol boats. The armada's crew totaled more than 27,000 sailors and soldiers. The largest of the junks were said to be over 400 feet long and 150 feet wide. (The Santa Maria, Columbus's largest ship, was a mere 90 by 30 feet and his crew numbered only 90.)

Loaded with Chinese silk, porcelain, and lacquer ware, the junks visited ports around the Indian Ocean. Here, Arab and African merchants exchanged the spices, ivory, medicines, rare woods, and pearls so eagerly sought by the Chinese imperial court.

Seven times, from 1405 to 1433, the treasure fleets set off for the unknown. These seven great expeditions brought a vast web of trading links—from Taiwan to the Persian Gulf—under Chinese imperial control. This took place half a century before the first Europeans, rounding the tip of Africa in frail Portuguese caravels, 'discovered' the Indian Ocean.


Here's Another

This is from one of those links.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JIW/is_/ai_n21118689


Dreyer, Edward L. Zheng He: China and the Oceans in the Early Ming Dynasty, 1405-1433. Old Tappan, N.J.: Pearson Longman, 2006. 238pp. $20.67

The military history of China has become a common element in the professional reading of many American military officers. Journals like this one have included an important focus on the Chinese past and present, and Edward Dreyer's book contributes important new history and analysis to that understanding. Studying the Chinese foreign expeditionary armada of the early fifteenth century, Dreyer outlines a Chinese strategy and set of naval tactics that are familiar to today's naval officer.

Related Results Starting in 1405 the eunuch Admiral Zheng He led a series of seven voyages from the shores of the Ming empire into the South China Sea and Indian Ocean. These voyages were made by fleets larger than any the world had ever seen; armadas of over two hundred vessels, the largest wooden vessels ever constructed, carrying roughly thirty thousand sailors and marine infantry. Scholars and Chinese government historians have characterized these expeditions, which reached as far west as the coast of Africa, as peaceful voyages of discovery. Dreyer, however, disagrees. He writes instead, "After thoroughly reviewing the primary Chinese sources, I concluded that the purpose of the voyages was actually 'power projection' ... rather than mere exploration. Zheng He's voyages were undertaken to force the states of Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean to acknowledge the power and majesty of Ming China and its emperor."

The book is structured in a straightforward manner, chronologically moving from Zheng He's personal biography and the background history of the voyages to the voyages themselves. While not a professional naval architect, Dreyer has obviously done his research.

He provides documentary and archaeological evidence, as well as explanation of basic principles of naval architecture, to support his conclusion that the largest of the ships, the baochuan, or "treasure ships," were at least three times larger than Nelson's flagship HMS Victory.

While the book is not annotated, the level of academic rigor is evidenced by an impressive group of appendixes. The reader should expect nothing less from Dreyer, a leading sinologist who is well versed in not only the history but also the language of the original Chinese source materials. Much of his history comes directly from contemporary primary sources, and the appendixes include translations of the original historical material. This inspired inclusion allows readers to draw their own conclusions. There are also time lines, a valuable index, and a bibliographic essay discussing previous interpretations of Zheng He's voyages from academic, journalistic, and Chinese government sources.

Conventional wisdom in the military-history community holds that China's small naval heritage is of little value. Naval battles on the grand lakes and rivers of the Middle Kingdom are not afforded the consideration or importance given to Admiral Matthew C. Perry's victory on Lake Erie or Rear Admiral David Porter's gunboat campaigns on the Mississippi. Dreyer's profile of Zheng He and the history of the voyages of the Foreign Expeditionary Armada provide a new view of Chinese naval heritage, one that includes interesting parallels to American naval strategy important to today's naval professionals. The Chinese government has held up the voyages of Zheng He as exemplars of their own future naval strategy. Dreyer's book offers a compelling revision of past views on the Ming fleets that can help guide future discussion on China's modern naval ambitions.

BENJAMIN ARMSTRONG

Pace, Florida

COPYRIGHT 2007 U.S. Naval War College
COPYRIGHT 2007 Gale Group


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#4    AzTide

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:05 PM

I'd recommend we close this I do not believe FTF is returning anytime soon.

“He who controls the present controls the past”  George Orwell

"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world."  Thomas Jefferson

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."  Thomas Jefferson

#5    Saru

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:23 AM

Agreed, should he return and wishes to continue this debate he can let me know i'll reopen it.

Closed.





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