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Astral projection and control by the subject


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#1    oslove

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 10:17 PM

Paging Ziggy Stardust, please report to this thread.

You say:

Ziggy Stardust on Oct 31 2008, 06:12 AM, said:

QUOTE (oslove @ Oct 31 2008, 10:51 AM)
We are talking in telekinesis about a physical phenomenon.

Before anything else, a physical phenomenon must be physically observable even though we cannot enact it in our laboratory, because it is too grand a phenomenon or too complicated, to enact.


Exactly, thank you. Bee, my belief and practice of astral projection has absolutely no relevance to this debate, and your use of it 'against' me, shows a degree of desperation. Astral Projection - an esoteric concept, assuming the existence of an ethereal world. Telekinesis - the practice of moving physical objects, on the physical plane. How are they at all related? Not in the slightest. Bee's lack of evidence has reached the point at which he/she is questioning the nature of the debater rather than the debater's points.

By the way, I thought you were gone? wink2.gif


So I went to your forum:

http://ascensionforums.invisionplus.net/

And read this line:

"We are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a human experience."


I assume you and me, persons, whether having spiritual experiences or human experiences, each one of us is one subject-agent of his experiences, whether human or spiritual experiences.


I looked up astral projection very briefly in the Wikipedia.



My question to you is:

Can the subject agent experiencing the astral projection episode which is I understand exclusively accessed by way of dreams exercise any control over himself in the astral projection state?



Let me explain:

In our existence and operation outside dreams we are normally in control of ourselves, like how much to eat, how to eat properly, what to eat, how to chew our food with lips closed.

Another example, we control how we drive our car.

Still another example, we build a fire in the picnic grounds but we are in control of the fire -- we don't start a fire we can't control, how do we control the fire? by putting it out throwing water on it.


What I want to know from you, a practitioner and advocate of astral projection, is:

Can we decide what to dream about and how to control the dream episode, which is the astral projection world of experience or encounter or even so-called altered consciousness or operation on the ethereal plane or realm?



Thanks for any operative information.


By the way, I am not Bee, but Oslove.


Oslove





#2    Mr Walker

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 03:53 AM

Just to give my take on this. Obes are travel within this realm. They can be independently verified by a variety of means. Astral travel is like an obe but to another astral plane . These, by their nature, are incapable of independent verification, except where two travellers meet , and can later compare notes under controlled conditions, and even that is difficult to achieve.

Many obes and astral travels which are not independently verified, are probably controlled lucid dreams. This is a rare form of lucid dreaming (which in itself is relatively rare)

If you can achieve lucid dreaming, you can possibly achieve controlled lucid dreaming. This involves consciously planning and constructing your dreams in advance. You create a world with whatever settings you like. Then you create characters to populate it. Finally you can either control the plot and story line or alow the NPC's to carry the story along and just go with it . As a child i created many worlds (which i now recognise as very similar to the wow online game.) They had portals, pocket universes, magic characters fliyng carpets and animals etc. Some came as an episode each night like a startrek episode. others were an ongoing and evolving story like days of our lives. As an adolescent i moved on to more sexual scenarios, and as an adult i still create amny alternative worlds. Not long ago my wife and i ran (in my dreams) a school where we taught peole first how to levitate then to fly in their dreams.
It was really funny watching people come in to land too fast, and bounce up in the air until they leaned the mental control needed to finesse delicate landings. They would either not apply enough control and land too hard,  bouncing up and down until they stopped; or they would overdo it and not manage to land at all.
My nights are an endless procession of adventures in different worlds, all designed and controlled by myself, through careful conscious planning during my waking hours.
oh yes. You can preplan obes, and probably astral travel. I have, on several occasions, organised in the real world to travel by obe to a person or group of people, listen and observe what they are doing, then report back/compare notes in the morning. Not only have i successfully achieved this, but when we exchanged conversations and activities, my observations from the obes were almost perfect matches to what was said and done in the real world within the same time frame.
I also put this skill to good practical use in the early 1980s designing and populating modules for dungeons and dragons. This also required envisaging possible responses by characters to physical scenarios and then supplying possible outcomes to each choice, so the world became potentially a multiverse, with many possible outcomes branching from each decision by a character.
It was a lot of fun watching real people populate my written, mapped and illustated worlds and bring the stories, settings and npc's to life.

Edited by Mr Walker, 07 November 2008 - 04:00 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#3    oslove

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 09:19 PM

Mr Walker on Nov 7 2008, 11:53 AM, said:

Just to give my take on this. Obes are travel within this realm. They can be independently verified by a variety of means. Astral travel is like an obe but to another astral plane . These, by their nature, are incapable of independent verification, except where two travellers meet , and can later compare notes under controlled conditions, and even that is difficult to achieve.[/indent]



Thanks for your reply to this thread.

Tell me, obe and astral projection (ap) are in your understanding and experience occurrences of man in the brain, as say male orgasm is an occurrence in the penis (but correct me if I am wrong).

Quote

Many obes and astral travels which are not independently verified, are probably controlled lucid dreams. This is a rare form of lucid dreaming (which in itself is relatively rare)



You are saying that many obes and astral travels (ats) are probably lucid dreams? Their occurrences are in the brain?

Quote

If you can achieve lucid dreaming, you can possibly achieve controlled lucid dreaming. This involves consciously planning and constructing your dreams in advance. You create a world with whatever settings you like. Then you create characters to populate it. Finally you can either control the plot and story line or alow the NPC's to carry the story along and just go with it . As a child i created many worlds (which i now recognise as very similar to the wow online game.) They had portals, pocket universes, magic characters fliyng carpets and animals etc. Some came as an episode each night like a startrek episode. others were an ongoing and evolving story like days of our lives. As an adolescent i moved on to more sexual scenarios, and as an adult i still create amny alternative worlds. Not long ago my wife and i ran (in my dreams) a school where we taught peole first how to levitate then to fly in their dreams.

It was really funny watching people come in to land too fast, and bounce up in the air until they leaned the mental control needed to finesse delicate landings. They would either not apply enough control and land too hard,  bouncing up and down until they stopped; or they would overdo it and not manage to land at all.
My nights are an endless procession of adventures in different worlds, all designed and controlled by myself, through careful conscious planning during my waking hours.

oh yes. You can preplan obes, and probably astral travel. I have, on several occasions, organised in the real world to travel by obe to a person or group of people, listen and observe what they are doing, then report back/compare notes in the morning. Not only have i successfully achieved this, but when we exchanged conversations and activities, my observations from the obes were almost perfect matches to what was said and done in the real world within the same time frame.

I also put this skill to good practical use in the early 1980s designing and populating modules for dungeons and dragons. This also required envisaging possible responses by characters to physical scenarios and then supplying possible outcomes to each choice, so the world became potentially a multiverse, with many possible outcomes branching from each decision by a character.

It was a lot of fun watching real people populate my written, mapped and illustated worlds and bring the stories, settings and npc's to life.



I am truly amazed by your capability and skill in the production and control of lucid dreams, it is for you as for anyone else thus endowed a terrific way and means for very enjoyable yet safe and harmless entertainment, costing no money, for such entertainment is in the brain which we all possess, by way of dreams.

If you will just put some simple but effective instructions in writing here on how to produce and control lucid dreams, even without obes and ats, I will most enthusiastically read these instructions, in order to also enjoy thus the as I said terrific entertainment, that is safe and costless completely in terms of money.

Please consider my suggestion most seriously, many people will reap benefits from your instructions.


Oslove.



#4    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 01:29 AM

There are probably threads here with detailed and varied strategies, but i will try to simply give some help
First, some obes are apparently legitimate forms of psychic ability. Ie they can be verified to connect to real people, real places, events and conversations in the real world. I put them in a different category,and wont give any advice on how to achieve them.

Second i am perhaps very lucky, and also my own childhood may have predisposed me to lucid dreaming. Statistics indicate that only a significant minority of people can, or ever do, manage to lucid dream. Ie be aware they are dreaming even as the dream goes on. They are able to sit back and enjoy the dream, but only marginally influence it. A much smaller subset of those people somehow achieve controlled or planned lucid dreaming.
I will give you a few strategies but there seems for me to be one underlying physical skill which must be achieved to make it possible That is developing conscious awareness and control of your subconscious.

Dreams come from the subconscious and are largely that part of the brain processing external and internal data in "random" eg non linear ways, with different forms of exrapolations and linkages from what we make consciously. Many of these we can recognise if we study dream symbology.(and studying these symbols may help. In fact any conscious study of dreams will help)
Thus, you need to find a way to link your conscious and subconscious minds. One way to do this is to use many strategies to keep your dreams at the forefront of your conscious mind. Dream diaries, constantly telling others about your dreams, studying the images and symbols of your dreams are all concrete strategies.

Secondly certain physical strategies seem to work. When i have more sleep than i need, i tend to go into that half awake/half asleep period when i can recall and reflect on my dreams consciously while still half asleep, and with a good recall of the dreams. If i am tired i falll asleep soundly, and although i dream i wake up immediately, without that period of thought and reflection.

LAstly, physically planning, consciously during the day, something you want to dream might help [ plotting it out in writing or even sketching things might help a visualisation process.) Lastly i found that the more i read and watched television while reflecting on the stories,  the more it helped me be able to understand characterisation and plot development ,which makes your dreams more realistic (even when quite fantastical)

I started as a very young child ( i was lucky to learn to read before i was 2 years old which introduced me to a land of fantasy years before tv was available in australia.) Along with that connection between conscious/subconscious, i think an open mind to all possibiities, a real interest in dreams. and a genuine love of fantasy/alternative possibilities opened me up to the experiences.

I wish you good luck and pleasant voyaging

Edited by Mr Walker, 09 November 2008 - 01:35 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#5    Phillee

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:37 AM

I am very pleased to hear such wonderful experiences! You have a very good point about lucid dreaming, and your descriptions and stories are wonderful. Thanks for the information.

one can prove the possible, however one cannot disprove the impossible.




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