Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

Unavoidable Selfishness


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#16    AlidaKU

AlidaKU

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 13 posts
  • Joined:20 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:United States

  • "Tis' better to live your own life imperfectly than to imitate someone else's perfectly."
    Elizabeth Gilbert

Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:26 AM

carrot sprite on Nov 12 2008, 12:35 AM, said:

Yes, however there is always a gain to a loss.  I.E. for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  The gain might not be apparent, the laws don't seem to always be so direct.

Also, how can it be selfless if it required yourself for it to happen?

Also, is it possible for a consciousness to exist without a perspective?  Ethics are, as it seems to me, an ordered perspective.

I think that also relates to crystal sage's post.


Scarecrow Jack.. that is what I was thinking. You have to think about the intent/outcome of the act at that moment. That is the perfect example... to "lose out and gain nothing.." So, there can be selfless acts?! Carrot Sprite..Energy/Action, itself, is not gained or lost, right? It has to go some where so it is always there. Really are you gaining anything?  wink2.gif

AlidaKU

#17    crystal sage

crystal sage

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,369 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2006
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Australia

Posted 13 November 2008 - 01:10 AM

Act of self.. self expression.. being self...

It is when we analyze..  pander to our innate need to review all ,to see where everything fits... towards our innate need of purpose.. growth.. evolution ..   the need to compartmentalize  everything in order to fit into our concepts of reality/progress/ achievement.. was it worth our energy.. is it best to channel this energy elsewhere.. what do we get out of this?


that we start to judge all in our world.. perhaps blur some edges.. overspills reasonings that led to each expression of self..

So in order to facilitate growth ,  review all.. we automatically begin to judge.. compartmentalize all into positives and negatives...some don't quite fit.. so,  unjustly??? shades of grey are considered...  so acts of self.. are shoved into categories of self-I-sh and un-self-I-sh..





#18    carrot sprite

carrot sprite

    Alien Embryo

  • Closed
  • Pip
  • 83 posts
  • Joined:17 Oct 2008

Posted 13 November 2008 - 03:49 AM

AlidaKU on Nov 13 2008, 12:26 AM, said:

Scarecrow Jack.. that is what I was thinking. You have to think about the intent/outcome of the act at that moment. That is the perfect example... to "lose out and gain nothing.." So, there can be selfless acts?! Carrot Sprite..Energy/Action, itself, is not gained or lost, right? It has to go some where so it is always there. Really are you gaining anything?  wink2.gif



You are gaining a thought or emotion at least.  You may not have consciously chose to do it, you may have done it unconsciously or subconsciously.  Even if you don't realize why you did it, there is still a reason.  The subconscious and unconscious time can usually act a lot faster than the conscious mind.  

You are doing it for an outcome that in some amount does affect you.  You are always a factor in the equation.

Why would you attempt to do something for something if it did not matter to you in the first place?  You may not even have to consciously  think about doing it since you already know.  If you had complete apathy you would not attempt to do anything about it at all.

Edited by carrot sprite, 13 November 2008 - 03:53 AM.


#19    AlidaKU

AlidaKU

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 13 posts
  • Joined:20 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:United States

  • "Tis' better to live your own life imperfectly than to imitate someone else's perfectly."
    Elizabeth Gilbert

Posted 13 November 2008 - 04:03 AM

carrot sprite on Nov 12 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

You are gaining a thought or emotion at least.  You may not have consciously chose to do it, you may have done it unconsciously or subconsciously.  Even if you don't realize why you did it, there is still a reason.  The subconscious and unconscious time can usually act a lot faster than the conscious mind.  

You are doing it for an outcome that in some amount does affect you.  You are always a factor in the equation.

Why would you attempt to do something for something if it did not matter to you in the first place?  You may not even have to consciously  think about doing it since you already know.  If you had complete apathy you would not attempt to do anything about it at all.


You always bring up good questions carrot... I need to think about it.

AlidaKU

#20    AlidaKU

AlidaKU

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 13 posts
  • Joined:20 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:United States

  • "Tis' better to live your own life imperfectly than to imitate someone else's perfectly."
    Elizabeth Gilbert

Posted 13 November 2008 - 04:49 AM

carrot sprite on Nov 12 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

You are gaining a thought or emotion at least.  You may not have consciously chose to do it, you may have done it unconsciously or subconsciously.  Even if you don't realize why you did it, there is still a reason.  The subconscious and unconscious time can usually act a lot faster than the conscious mind.  

You are doing it for an outcome that in some amount does affect you.  You are always a factor in the equation.

Why would you attempt to do something for something if it did not matter to you in the first place?  You may not even have to consciously  think about doing it since you already know.  If you had complete apathy you would not attempt to do anything about it at all.


Ok the most I can come up with is that your thought or emotion (consciousnous) is energy... I think energy can neither be gained or lost. So, it goes back to what I was saying. All in all, sure all outcomes affect you. They affect everyone. Are you saying there is more to say about the subconscious  mind? I am just thinking carrot. Can anyone really be truely apathetic? If anything...You would have to be like that guy that lived on the streets in a tub you were telling me about!  hmm.gif I forget his name.

AlidaKU

#21    Saard

Saard

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined:07 Jan 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

  • Woof Woof, I say unto thee, Woof.

Posted 14 November 2008 - 01:49 AM

The intention makes all the difference.
If a person does something purely to help someone else, with no thought for themselves, that is a selfless act.
If, afterwards, they feel good about the decision, that's even better.
It does not negate the act just because they feel good about it.
People do this kind of thing all the time.
Altruism is alive and well.


#22    Saard

Saard

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined:07 Jan 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

  • Woof Woof, I say unto thee, Woof.

Posted 14 November 2008 - 02:16 AM

Having read this thread a little more closely, I've noticed people have actually made the point I just made.
Bugger. I thought it was a good one too.
Anyway, I think the issue here is subjectivity.
Because it is you that is making a decision, you can never be totally removed from the equation.
This is not a nail in the coffin of altruism by any means. It is a logic trap and is irrelevant.
If you've decided to stick to a moral principle that is external to your desires, you can be altruistic.
There are no shortages of incidences where someone has made a decision because they think it is the right thing to do but it goes against everything they want.
In such a circumstance, the benefit they feel from having made the right decision is completely outweighed by the negative impact of having done it.
Famous example: Captain Oates - "I'm going outside, I may be some time."
Altruism. Still kicking.

Edited by Saard, 14 November 2008 - 02:21 AM.


#23    carrot sprite

carrot sprite

    Alien Embryo

  • Closed
  • Pip
  • 83 posts
  • Joined:17 Oct 2008

Posted 14 November 2008 - 04:19 AM

Saard on Nov 14 2008, 02:16 AM, said:

Having read this thread a little more closely, I've noticed people have actually made the point I just made.
Bugger. I thought it was a good one too.
Anyway, I think the issue here is subjectivity.
Because it is you that is making a decision, you can never be totally removed from the equation.
This is not a nail in the coffin of altruism by any means. It is a logic trap and is irrelevant.
If you've decided to stick to a moral principle that is external to your desires, you can be altruistic.
There are no shortages of incidences where someone has made a decision because they think it is the right thing to do but it goes against everything they want.
In such a circumstance, the benefit they feel from having made the right decision is completely outweighed by the negative impact of having done it.
Famous example: Captain Oates - "I'm going outside, I may be some time."
Altruism. Still kicking.


For doing that they can selfishly see themselves as a person that does the right thing.  They get to live in the pride that they give up what they desired for something else.  They're still doing it for themselves, so they can feel right about themselves.
What's the use of having what you want if you still feel bad about yourself?
A lot of times mental or spiritual desires outweigh all of the material desires.
It's still selfishness.


#24    crystal sage

crystal sage

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,369 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2006
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Australia

Posted 14 November 2008 - 08:21 PM

Every act.. or inaction.. expresses yourself... who you are at that moment... it is not selfish.. it is just being existing..

A monk  in a cave may just sit there and simply 'be' explore matter..conscious.unconscious... he needs a little servant to check up on him .. feed him.. selfish...  ?? .. he may think it is selfless.. as most of his life is spent .. inside.. outside him self...

A  person in a coma... is just being.. existing in another plane.... yet requires care... creates misery.. grief.. to those that have known and loved him.. or even hated him.. as they now feel guilty.. or still feel a connections one way or another.

A homeless person on the street.. may barely have exist  to many.. leave what we assume is a small footprint.. but..they leave their mark on numerous people ..who they interact with.. the randoms that experience him in their reality.. even if it is as a reminder to work harder.. study harder... try and help out more in society..fear.. pity.. empathy... those that help with charitable works... those that he chats to.. his friends and acquaintances that he interacts with.. some stray pets.. people that he helped out from all walks of life... the energetic.. telepathic messages he is sending to others.. the memories.. connections to all those in his past... those that are involved in his dreams/adventures of the future....

everyone has an energetic  footprint in this world.. whether they are still here.. absent.. lost.. dead..late.. early..as an old friend.. a new acquaintance..triggers a  positive or negative  or neutral memory in someone/many.,. any act or deed that has shaped or influenced a life.. lives... been a member of a crowd.. driven on a road that you were on.. by adding to traffic.. driving slowly causing stress.. making you late.. causing you overtake... taking your parking space.. leaving the parking space just as you need it.. or just as you passed it.. or parked crookedly...

Every one leaves their mark somehow.. by their  presence or absence.. by simply existing in any frame of reference...

Why some people are even affected by the children they never had... the people they have never met.. or fear to meet...  just the image of a potential person can have an effect on someone..

The bogey man in the closet.. under the bed.. in a story.. can create havock in someones.. many lives..

The image of Hansel and Gretel... Cinderella... the wicked witch.. all have positive or negative influences... or just influences on countless lives...
Could you classify them... relegate them into selfish or unselfish categories???



It is all about being..  We create the idea of positive or negative.. we judge.. categorize .. unconsciously relegate all...   Is it a latent form of OCD ?

yes.gif

http://www.adaa.org/Public/selftest_OCD.htm

Add to that the obsessive need to categorize all in order to assimilate neatly place it in into your world...

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=i7jG91sPvf0

Every thing just is... until we feed it energy and create with it... harness it into our building blocks in our reality.

Edited by crystal sage, 14 November 2008 - 08:32 PM.


#25    carrot sprite

carrot sprite

    Alien Embryo

  • Closed
  • Pip
  • 83 posts
  • Joined:17 Oct 2008

Posted 14 November 2008 - 08:57 PM

You don't have to give it the selfish and unselfish label to make it negative or positive...  Afterall, negative and positive are the same thing, just a different configuration of it.  That is another subject though.  

What I am saying is, everything you do, you do it for yourself.  When someone says they did something for someone else, they are really causing change to that person so it reacts with themselves.  The reaction to yourself may not be material, it may be spiritual or emotional.


#26    crystal sage

crystal sage

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,369 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2006
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Australia

Posted 14 November 2008 - 11:21 PM

How about breathing.. is that selfish .. or simply just existing?


#27    carrot sprite

carrot sprite

    Alien Embryo

  • Closed
  • Pip
  • 83 posts
  • Joined:17 Oct 2008

Posted 15 November 2008 - 04:00 AM

crystal sage on Nov 14 2008, 11:21 PM, said:

How about breathing.. is that selfish .. or simply just existing?



Existing covers a large range of things.  Yes it is selfish, since you are doing it for you.  Again, we don't have to use the labels, you are doing it for you.


#28    The Raven

The Raven

    Wanderer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,684 posts
  • Joined:24 Mar 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maine, United States

Posted 15 November 2008 - 04:04 AM

carrot sprite on Nov 8 2008, 04:19 PM, said:

It appears that everything anyone does is never completely unselfish.  Acts of giving make you feel good about yourself.  When you love someone with all your heart and you would do anything for them, even if it hurts yourself, it is since you would feel worse off if you didn't do it.



When you give, and don't expect to receive in return, you are still receiving a feeling of goodwill from yourself.  Nothing you do is ever completely about someone else, since you are always there.  This is unavoidable.


Perhaps you would appreciate the book "The Virtue of Selfishness" by Ayn Rand.

Baron Wormser said:

What brought me to the woods was the longing to be with words in an undistracted place. 'Woods' and 'words' were almost identical.

Wayfarer - A Journey in Thought and Creation

#29    wolfieboy

wolfieboy

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,808 posts
  • Joined:25 Nov 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CORPUS CHRISTI TX

  • yesterday is today, when you look back tomorrow

Posted 15 November 2008 - 04:09 AM

carrot sprite on Nov 9 2008, 10:38 PM, said:

I think some people are missing the point.

The point is everything you do is ultimately about you.  There is no completely selfless act. I have trouble explaining this without giving examples.

If you do something for someone it is so you feel right or good about it.  If you make yourself feel bad, it is since you wouldn't feel right feeling good (you feel more right about yourself feeling bad than you would feeling good).

Your intent could be anything for the person, but you're doing it for how it makes you feel.  It's all about you.  You can do things to make others feel a way, you still are going to feel some way about it.



  yes i agree carrot. we all do what we want, when we want, for the reasons we want. be it what ever YOU want to call it



                                                PEACE OUT wolfie


#30    Saard

Saard

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined:07 Jan 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

  • Woof Woof, I say unto thee, Woof.

Posted 16 November 2008 - 12:30 PM

I agree that you can never do anything that does not comply with some urge or principle of yours, so therefore nothing can ever be done that is utterly selfless because some part of you has to approve of the action in order to do it.

This is a pointless, circular argument however. Of course there has to be some sense of self in a decision or it's not a decision. What is more important is to get past that and identify the strongest kind of altrusim a person can perform.

And this would be to do something where the pleasure or benefits gained are outweighed by the negative consequences of the action.

There are many examples of this kind of altruism.
Like I mentioned before, Captain Oates who went out to die in the cold so his friends might have a better chance of survival or, for instance, a little girl in school who thinks she should stand up for the bullied kid who she doesn't even like but knows it's the right thing to do and ends up being bullied for years herself.

Altruism: In your towns and on your streets.

Edited by Saard, 16 November 2008 - 02:18 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users