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Man's First Fatal Flaw


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#1    Shadowmalerenamon

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:08 PM

This is the first thread of a series I will be calling "Man's Fatal Flaws", the basic psychological reasons I have found as to why humanity is weak. I present these ideas in hope that others will take time and reflect upon them, and if they disagree, try to prove me wrong. I love debating, and I love testing my debating skills. As they say, "Let the game begin!"

Man creates the sword, and is thus killed by the sword. The sword is born out of distrust, the inability to trust his fellow man. Distrust leads to fear, fear leads to paranoia, parnoia leads to murder. Man kills his fellow man, finding solace in knowing the threat has been removed, only to discover a new threat, or be killed by another fearful man. Man's inability to trust his fellow man is the first fatal flaw.

"Beatus vir qui, suffert tentationem"-Lilium (2nd verse)

#2    Paranoid Android

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:21 PM

Interesting topic, Knight.  I'm not sure if you are intending to discuss this in future Fatal Flaw threads, but it's been my experience that the Number-1 flaw in humanity has always been its tendency towards selfishness.  And on a more personal note, not just the selfishness but the inability to see that selfishness in themselves (but yet see it through everything else in the world).  To me, this is and always will be the biggest flaw in humanity.  

If you can work out ways to overcome this problem in humanity, I think you'll go a long way to solving all of humanity's problems.

Just my input I thought to add to this thumbsup.gif

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#3    The Silver Thong

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 02:40 PM

I would have to say that trust is not a fatal flaw at all. With out trust man probably wouldn't be here. We had to create family units, tribes, communities. With out developing trust none of these things would have happened and we would have been picked off one by one. With out trust man would not be a social creature and there for a much weaker species. As far as the invention of the sword, hell might as well use a rock, man has and always will kill each other I'm almost sure of that. As far as fear goes, it's a manditory requirment for survival, with out it we would be dropping off like flies. We have fear and trust issues for very good reason and we need them to survive. It's what makes us strong not weak in my eye's anyway.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 21 November 2008 - 02:42 PM.

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#4    Shadowmalerenamon

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 06:47 PM

The Silver Thong on Nov 21 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

I would have to say that trust is not a fatal flaw at all. With out trust man probably wouldn't be here. We had to create family units, tribes, communities. With out developing trust none of these things would have happened and we would have been picked off one by one. With out trust man would not be a social creature and there for a much weaker species. As far as the invention of the sword, hell might as well use a rock, man has and always will kill each other I'm almost sure of that. As far as fear goes, it's a manditory requirment for survival, with out it we would be dropping off like flies. We have fear and trust issues for very good reason and we need them to survive. It's what makes us strong not weak in my eye's anyway.


Why does man declare war? To conquer land, and by doing so, the "enemy" is no longer a threat. What is an enemy? Someone you fear, and fear is caused by distrust

Edited by Knight of the Twilight, 21 November 2008 - 06:48 PM.

"Beatus vir qui, suffert tentationem"-Lilium (2nd verse)

#5    Karlis

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 03:48 AM

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 22 2008, 01:08 AM, said:

~~~ ...
... Man creates the sword, and is thus killed by the sword. The sword is born out of distrust, the inability to trust his fellow man. Distrust leads to fear, fear leads to paranoia, parnoia leads to murder. Man kills his fellow man, finding solace in knowing the threat has been removed, only to discover a new threat, or be killed by another fearful man. Man's inability to trust his fellow man is the first fatal flaw.
I think that perhaps you have some of the Fatal Flaws in Man a bit out of order. I agree with PA that selfishness is the first flaw in Man. I would say that distrust of others is an automatic follow-up flaw of selfishness. Because Man is by nature selfish, Man instinctively feels that others are also selfishly self-centered, and will take advantage of situations, at the expense of others. As a result Man creates the sword, initially for the purpose of self-defense ... but a weapon of self-defense in a selfish man's hand easily becomes a weapon of attack.

Man is a social being, and to thrive as a society, Man must co-operate within society, and that automatically calls for a level of trust. That co-operation involves various morals, values and standards. Mutual trust is an essential virtue in an ideal society, if that society is to flourish.

I agree that one of Manís universal faults is distrust of others; but distrust is a result of selfishness. Distrust leads to inevitable conflict as you so clearly state.

On the other hand, in an imperfect society as exists today, where values are not moral absolutes, being too trusting can be fatal. But that is going a little off-topic here.

Hope this was of some help in starting the ball rolling,
Karlis


#6    Leonardo

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 08:54 AM

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 21 2008, 02:08 PM, said:

This is the first thread of a series I will be calling "Man's Fatal Flaws", the basic psychological reasons I have found as to why humanity is weak. I present these ideas in hope that others will take time and reflect upon them, and if they disagree, try to prove me wrong. I love debating, and I love testing my debating skills. As they say, "Let the game begin!"

Man creates the sword, and is thus killed by the sword. The sword is born out of distrust, the inability to trust his fellow man. Distrust leads to fear, fear leads to paranoia, parnoia leads to murder. Man kills his fellow man, finding solace in knowing the threat has been removed, only to discover a new threat, or be killed by another fearful man. Man's inability to trust his fellow man is the first fatal flaw.


Distrust is not a fatal flaw, but an important survival mechanism.

Only if you wish to take an idealistic view that all of mankind could simultaneously have perfect trust in each other would distrust be unnecessary for our continued survival. Such a scenario is highly unlikely.

As has been pointed out, selfishness is the basic reason for this. Not necessarily malicious selfishness, but simply a selfishness of wanting to survive and reproduce. I notice you have started another thread regarding 'gluttony'. If this is how you term selfishness then I would suggest discussing the psychology of Man in separate 'packets' is not going to allow for a full discussion of the topic. I would also suggest that you steer away from association with religious terminology as you seem to be drawing a parallel to the mythology of the 'deadly sins' (and these are a myth).

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#7    Karlis

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 11:34 AM

Leonardo on Nov 23 2008, 07:54 PM, said:

Distrust is not a fatal flaw, but an important survival mechanism.

Only if you wish to take an idealistic view that all of mankind could simultaneously have perfect trust in each other would distrust be unnecessary for our continued survival. Such a scenario is highly unlikely.

As has been pointed out, selfishness is the basic reason for this. Not necessarily malicious selfishness, but simply a selfishness of wanting to survive and reproduce. I notice you have started another thread regarding 'gluttony'. If this is how you term selfishness then I would suggest discussing the psychology of Man in separate 'packets' is not going to allow for a full discussion of the topic. I would also suggest that you steer away from association with religious terminology as you seem to be drawing a parallel to the mythology of the 'deadly sins' (and these are a myth).
I think you are right, Leo -- I "felt" something amiss with the progress to the second point, gluttony, by Knight ... but I could not find words for that.

Over to you Knight,
Karlis



#8    Saard

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 01:23 PM

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 21 2008, 02:08 PM, said:

This is the first thread of a series I will be calling "Man's Fatal Flaws", the basic psychological reasons I have found as to why humanity is weak. I present these ideas in hope that others will take time and reflect upon them, and if they disagree, try to prove me wrong. I love debating, and I love testing my debating skills. As they say, "Let the game begin!"

Man creates the sword, and is thus killed by the sword. The sword is born out of distrust, the inability to trust his fellow man. Distrust leads to fear, fear leads to paranoia, parnoia leads to murder. Man kills his fellow man, finding solace in knowing the threat has been removed, only to discover a new threat, or be killed by another fearful man. Man's inability to trust his fellow man is the first fatal flaw.



Weapons aren't born out of distrust, they're born out of need.

There are people who want what the other person has got and will take it by force. This happens because survival isn't easy and the creature that doesn't get the resources is the one that dies.

Some of our earliest weapons were our fists, before that, teeth and claws. Nowadays, we don't really need to fight for the basics, but people fight for territory and power instead.

Distrust is not a fatal flaw, it's a healthy and necessary reaction to an imperfect world.

I agree with the android, selfishness is a bigger problem. It's our animal tendancy to look after ourselves and our families first. When we finally get past that, no time soon I'd imagine, we will have conquered our animal natures and be in control of our own existence.

Ideally, we need a global mindset that cares for the society as much as the individual.


Edit: damnit, I thought there were only two posts and have just parrotted points already made. Oh well, everyone seems to be in agreement. This could be a good first step to that harmonious global mindset. Obviously the people on this board know what's good for humanity, better than humanity does itself. Anyone fancy taking the world by force?

For its own good of course.

Edited by Saard, 23 November 2008 - 01:33 PM.


#9    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 04:47 PM

pure trust is naive.  And no one remains naive. it's impossible.  A baby touches a pot and finds it's hot , gets stung by a bee , any number of reasons ......... trust isn't pure. We grow up and learn not all promises are kept even by those we most trust.

Mans fatal flaw isn't a lack of trust , but greed , selfishness , which leads to weaponry and arrogance . When man thinks he is above another be it for any reason from race , gender , sexuality , religion , power , money , land .......................it makes trust impossible. So as long as you have people who claim to be right , or better than ? You can forget an equal peaceful world.


#10    Chauncy

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 09:20 PM

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 21 2008, 03:08 PM, said:

This is the first thread of a series I will be calling "Man's Fatal Flaws", the basic psychological reasons I have found as to why humanity is weak. I present these ideas in hope that others will take time and reflect upon them, and if they disagree, try to prove me wrong. I love debating, and I love testing my debating skills. As they say, "Let the game begin!"

Man creates the sword, and is thus killed by the sword. The sword is born out of distrust, the inability to trust his fellow man. Distrust leads to fear, fear leads to paranoia, parnoia leads to murder. Man kills his fellow man, finding solace in knowing the threat has been removed, only to discover a new threat, or be killed by another fearful man. Man's inability to trust his fellow man is the first fatal flaw.


I agree with Leo on this one. This mistrust is a crucial survival mechanism. The ability to place trust wisely moreover. Man's ability to be on gaurd for threat and have the ability to eliminate it, has ensured survival. Its the same with any species on the planet. Its a basic rule of survival: Either eliminate the threat or be eliminated. The only thing that gets to reproduce is the one that won the fight. Survival of the Fittest.

As far as making and being killed by the sword, thats a natural survival outcome aswell......right up to the H-Bomb, and nuclear warheads, and why mankind continues to create better weapons and practice warfare.

Picture the first people that forged metal to create a sword, the people with the swords won all the fights. If you were keen on survival you too would need a sword or something better to combat threats and gaurantee survival of you and your bloodline.

If you didn't have the means or knowledge to make a sword , you would then need to steal one!!

The reason why mankind doesn't trust his fellow man is because mankind is not trustworthy.




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#11    The Silver Thong

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 09:36 PM

Yet I have to disagree. Yes trust/miss trust is vital to our survival. However the family unit was not built out of greed and self preservation. It was built out of early humans having to rely on other humans/family members. Man has not been selfish in it's infancy. Man was forced to share and protect back then. Now it's everyman for himself. The trust and social structure that made man strong is now falling apart. We don't trust now as we use to, why is that?  Yet we will trust almost anyone still, just with a wink. hmmmm

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#12    Chauncy

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 09:59 PM

The Silver Thong on Nov 23 2008, 10:36 PM, said:

Yet I have to disagree. Yes trust/miss trust is vital to our survival. However the family unit was not built out of greed and self preservation. It was built out of early humans having to rely on other humans/family members. Man has not been selfish in it's infancy. Man was forced to share and protect back then. Now it's everyman for himself. The trust and social structure that made man strong is now falling apart. We don't trust now as we use to, why is that?  Yet we will trust almost anyone still, just with a wink. hmmmm


Thats why more over mistrust, is the intelligence to place trust wisely.

What ensures survival is the ability to place trust in that which is trustworthy.

We have created things that eliminate , for the most part, our chances of succumbing to the elements....clothing shelter, electricity. As a result more rare is the situation where trust or mistrust reulsts in death.

We are smart to band together and place trust in one another and place mistrust in the clan over the river.

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#13    Shadowmalerenamon

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 01:06 PM

Chauncy on Nov 23 2008, 04:59 PM, said:

We are smart to band together and place trust in one another and place mistrust in the clan over the river.


If we can trust those we band together with, why should we mistrust the others? What is the reason for that mistrust? The reason: Man, by nature, trusts no one.

(BTW, there is no particular importance in the order I present the fatal flaws, its just the order I decide on. Also, sorry for the late response, I can get online on weekends)

Edited by Knight of the Twilight, 24 November 2008 - 01:07 PM.

"Beatus vir qui, suffert tentationem"-Lilium (2nd verse)

#14    Chauncy

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 02:25 PM

Knight of the Twilight on Nov 24 2008, 01:06 PM, said:

If we can trust those we band together with, why should we mistrust the others? What is the reason for that mistrust? The reason: Man, by nature, trusts no one.

(BTW, there is no particular importance in the order I present the fatal flaws, its just the order I decide on. Also, sorry for the late response, I can get online on weekends)


I can understand how you would arrive at the conclusion that man, by nature, trusts no one.

Although one could see it more of a conclusion that man, by nature, is not trustworthy.

We obviously have the ability to trust because what has enhanced survival is placing trust wisely into things that are trustworthy.

There are endless examples of men putting trust into other men. Look at the soldiers on the front line of battle that trust their life in another man's hands and vise versa. This type trust greatly adds to the chance of survival in a battlefield setting.

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#15    Shadowmalerenamon

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 02:45 PM

Chauncy on Nov 24 2008, 09:25 AM, said:

There are endless examples of men putting trust into other men. Look at the soldiers on the front line of battle that trust their life in another man's hands and vise versa. This type trust greatly adds to the chance of survival in a battlefield setting.


But why does that battlefield exist to begin with? Because man mistrusts the man on the other side, thus generating fear and creating battle

"Beatus vir qui, suffert tentationem"-Lilium (2nd verse)




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