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EU anti-Semitism report called `misleading'


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#16    Erikl

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 11:59 AM

QUOTE
BTW erikl our country is far less zionistic country than yours, so maybe before you come out cirticising other countrys you should sort the massivvve absolutley massive amounts of disgusting racism that exists in you country


tongue.gif LOL.
Exactly my point. Equating Israel to Nazism, Zionism to Nazism etc..
Not only you don't know what anti-semitism is, you don't know what Zionism is.

QUOTE
So by default you are sayin the british took part in the holocaust?

This is such an insulting remark i dont know what to say to it.

The entire world took part in the Holocaust. They turned their heads and closed their eyes. Exactly like the entire world is blamed for the genocide in Ruwanda and the current genocide of the N. Koreans in gas chambers. The writting was on the wall, but nobody wanted to read it.
By not acting hard enough to stop it, the entire world is to blamed (exept for the Danish people that saved their entire Jewish community and made sure that they will live in degnity).

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#17    Erikl

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 12:07 PM

Gazz, I totally agree with you.

But I have just one little remark:

QUOTE
but also the same can be
said that there is more racism against
the Palistinians, some I have heard call
them less than human, even named them
after some pathetic animal.

You are forgetting that the entire base for the Arab-Israeli conflict (which also includes Palestinian-Israeli conflict) is the anti-semitism that the totaliterian regimes in the Arab states fuel to their people in order for them to ignore the problems that the regime himself is causing, blaming it all on Israel.

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#18    <bleeding_heart>

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 12:27 PM

QUOTE (Erikl @ Apr 3 2004, 01:07 PM)
Gazz, I totally agree with you.

But I have just one little remark:

QUOTE
but also the same can be
said that there is more racism against
the Palistinians, some I have heard call
them less than human, even named them
after some pathetic animal.

You are forgetting that the entire base for the Arab-Israeli conflict (which also includes Palestinian-Israeli conflict) is the anti-semitism that the totaliterian regimes in the Arab states fuel to their people in order for them to ignore the problems that the regime himself is causing, blaming it all on Israel.

Are we to assume from your last comments that racism towards Palestinians is acceptalbe, due to historical factors?

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#19    Gazz

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 12:32 PM

QUOTE (Erikl @ Apr 3 2004, 01:07 PM)
You are forgetting that the entire base for the Arab-Israeli conflict (which also includes Palestinian-Israeli conflict) is the anti-semitism that the totaliterian regimes in the Arab states fuel to their people in order for them to ignore the problems that the regime himself is causing, blaming it all on Israel.

If you believe that the Israeli Jews
are the only victims in this conflict
that has taken thousands of years to
evolve then all debate with you is lost.

There are always two sides to any conflict
and in any conflict anger and hatred
will grow the same on both sides.

You cannot take a higher ground just because
you are Jew, nor can the palistinian
claim that they are right, both sides
are victems of a conflict that is older
than anyone is yet willing to either
understand or believe.

Bottom line we are all HUMAN.. the sooner
we come to terms with that the sooner
we can become a peacful race of beings.

When I see a suicide bombing, I feel pain
for humanity, not anger or hatred anymore
and when I see palistinians killed for
nothing more than being in the wrong place
at the wrong time I feel the same pain.

We have to be able to see both sides, and
the pain it has caused so many for so long
on both sides.

Life is too short for us all, why can't we
find a path to peace and understanding?

Do you think the palistinian mother
feels less pain for the death of her
child in this conflict, than the jewish
mother does for her child killed in a
suicide bombing?

Bottom line, I have a hard time believing
this insanity on all sides will ever end.

and in time this conflict will in some
way consume the entire world, dividing
all into Us or Them.

Only I have no idea who Us or Them is
anymore.

and I think we are losing sight of who
is right or wrong.

Of course in a perfect world we could
say neither.. and move on to a peaceful
world ... but there is no chance of that
now.

Gazz

Edited by Gazz, 03 April 2004 - 12:34 PM.


#20    Erikl

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 12:48 PM

Gazz and <bleeding_heart>, you didn't understand me:
All racism is wrong, ofcourse. I just mentioned that the Arab-Israeli conflict started because of anti-semtism. Arab countries fought eachother, but they all hated Israel as a strategic descision to destroy it.

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#21    Erikl

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 01:19 PM

QUOTE
Do you think the palistinian mother
feels less pain for the death of her
child in this conflict, than the jewish
mother does for her child killed in a
suicide bombing?

Bottom line, I have a hard time believing
this insanity on all sides will ever end.


As a matter of fact, most of the families of the suicide bombers are actually happy that their child killed Israelis, as they are fed with hatred to everything Israeli or Jewish.
The conflict is not that old - it's only 80 yeats old, not hundreds of years.
The problem is that the Palestinians are not willing to compromise on anything. We offered them 97% of the terretories they claim to want, including filling the other 3% with Israeli land, and deviding our capital city. Arafat refused.
The problem is that the world think the two sides are equally blaimed for the conflict. Forget it. Political correctness might sound nice, but it usually doesn't work in the real world, especially in conflicts. There is the agressor and there is the one who is in the defence. Israel that is in the defence is being shown as the main agressor - ignoring all facts.
Don't get me wrong - I don't think that the Palestinians as a people are evil or primitive - they are human beings. Most of them want to live their life and raise their kids, just as we Israeli wants.
But the fact is that their leaders have other agendas. They are inciting those people against Israel, promising them things that are not rational, feeling them with dreams that has no grounds in reality (such as that they will destory Israel and rule all the area from the Jordan river to the Sea, and that millions of Paletinians will enter Israel making the Jews a minority and thus destroying Israel).
Most Israelis agree to territorial compromise. Most Palestinians do not, and the ones that do are being killed in the streets by angry mob or are being persecuted by the PA. When there will be a majority among Palestinians that will agree to the existance of Israel and to compromise on wanting only Judea Samaria and Gaza, then there will be peace.
Anyway, when reviewing the Israel-Palestinian conflict, one has to remember the follwing facts:

The problem with words like "occupied" is that they have different meanings in different contexts, but expert propagandists like the PLO are very good at manipulating those meanings.

Legally, under pre-existing international law governing war, the WB and Gaza should be classified as "disputed" and not occupied.

FACT - Israel conquered the WB and Gaza in a defensive war in 1967 - Egypt committed acts of war before Israel fired the first shot at it, and Jordan, which owned the WB, fired the first shot at Israel.

FACT - There was never a state of Palestine, and in fact the idea of a Palestinian people was born in the 1950s & 60's as an way in which to help destroy Israel - but, digressing, the fact that the land was taken from Jordan, and never from the non-existant state of Palestine, means that the territories are for certain not one thing - they are not "Palestinian land", and since Jordan renounced claim, they are not Jordanian land. The only way they can be considered "Palestinian land" is by going back to the 47 partition - which is weak since the Arabs, including the "Palestinians", who didn't exist as a group at the time, rejected it, or under Western democratic principles - the right of the residents of the land to have sovereignty over it.

FACT - The WB played an important role in the survival of Israel in the Arab states cowardly sneak attack on Yom Kippur in 1973.

FACT - Post 1993 98% of the Pals lived under Pal Arab rule - there was no "occupation" in the democratic sense for them during those years, but terrorism continued.

FACT - the Al Aqsa intifadah was admittedly preplanned after a rejection of 97% of the WB and Gaza including half of Jerusalem at Taba, and slightly less land at Camp David, with no counter offer.

FACT - the destruction of police buildings has not destroyed the Pal Arab police force - as they are very effective at policing and killing "collaborators" and those who threaten the PA.

FACT - The PA is the PLO is Fatah, which has funded terror (with American, Arab and European money) and, with the al-aqsa brigades, committed terror.

FACT - the PA renounced not terrorism, but ALL VIOLENCE under Oslo, but terror never stopped, or even slowed down - it escalated at the hands of Arafat and his thugs.

FACT - the PA controlls media, schools, symbols, and religion all promote the killing of Jews and destruction of Israel.

FACT - Israel has removed settlements for peace, and much of the settlement building post Oslo was actually the strategy that in response to every terror attack, Israel would expand settlements - which might have been effective if the PA was interested only in the WB and Gaza, and not in the destruction of Israel proper. Settlements are not the problem, they are an excuse, a pre-text, just as was Sharon, a Jew, visit to the temple mount, for a preplanned war.



Anyway -- I think this thread has really gone off-topic, so let's get back on the main topic, shall we?

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#22    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE
Exactly my point. Equating Israel to Nazism, Zionism to Nazism etc..
Not only you don't know what anti-semitism is, you don't know what Zionism is.


LOL ok i meant to say xenophobic not zionistic lol i dont know why i typed that.

And when the hell did I equate israel to nazi germany??????????????? lol

No-ione is saying its all israel's fault , we never have, but your point of view is so utterly biased an unable to comprehend that there are two sides to this story its impossible to talk to you.

You seem to think that if i disagree with you or attempt to say that both parties could be equally at fault that i am then being anti-semitic.

You seem to think that the israelis have a divine right to never be questioned.

BTW I dont see isreal sending thousands of troops around the wold on humanitarian missions, you talk about the rest of the world turning a blind eye, what exactly have you done to aid countries in need?????

Edited by wunarmdscissor, 03 April 2004 - 02:41 PM.

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#23    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 02:49 PM

Retracted  

Sorry erikl i was merley demomnstrating how frustrating it is to be blindly called a racist

Edited by wunarmdscissor, 03 April 2004 - 03:27 PM.

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#24    Erikl

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 03:13 PM

QUOTE
LOL ok i meant to say xenophobic not zionistic lol i dont know why i typed that.

And when the hell did I equate israel to nazi germany??????????????? lol


I dubt you didn't mean that, but if you didn't it's just shows you how deep anti-Israel propaganda is.
You did not equate Israel to Nazi Germany, but this is all packed together into the same "Israel is evil, Israel is racist, and Israel is Nazi" theme song I keep hearing from Europeans and Arabs.

QUOTE
No-ione is saying its all israel's fault , we never have, but your point of view is so utterly biased an unable to comprehend that there are two sides to this story its impossible to talk to you.

You seem to think that if i disagree with you or attempt to say that both parties could be equally at fault that i am then being anti-semitic.

Not at all! look how I disscussed with Gazz - I didn't say anywhere that he is anti-semitic. His criticism however misguided by his lack of knowledge is legitimate. He didn't equate Israel or Zionism to racism/Nazism etc.. He admitted that there is anti-semitism in Europe as well as other forms of racism which are found everywhere in the world. Israel is a democracy and as such not only one can criticise it but also it's own citizens are obligated to do so (which believe me, we do). But one should not demonize Israel and put it as the main problem of this region - this is simply playing into Arab propaganda which unfurtunately succeeded in winning European minds.

QUOTE
You seem to think that the israelis have a divine right to never be questioned.

I never said that and I countinuosly said that Israel can, like any other country in the world, be criticised.
But when Israel is the only one being criticised daily when in other parts of the world human rights are being broken all the time including among Israel's neighbors (Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia) and new EU members (Latvia, where there is an Apartheid against the Russian residents there), and when an EU servey shows that most of EU's citizens think that Israel is the world's greatest risk when N. Korea and Iran are developing nukes and when there is a constant risk of nuclear war between India and Pakistan, something IS wrong, don't you think?!?!
And when Jack Straw says that the killing of Yassin was a crime when British soldiers are after Al-Qaeda's leaders inorder to kill them, something with the world's standards is not right, do you agree?

QUOTE
BTW I dont see isreal sending thousands of troops around the wold on humanitarian missions, you talk about the rest of the world turning a blind eye, what exactly have you done to aid countries in need?????

Again you don't know very much about Israel - Israel was among the first to send humanitarian mission to Africa after the explosions of American ambassies by Al-Qaeda. Israel agreed to house Albanian (muslim) refugees in the time of the Kosovo war. Israel sent humanitarian mission to Madrid after the attacks. Israel sent humanitarian mission to Ground Zero after 9/11. Israel was among the first to send humanitarian mission to turkey after the earth quake, and it sent the largest team. Israel offered humanitarian aid to Iran(!), Israel's greatest foe, after the earth quake there (Iran rejected the aid, so Israel used alternative ways to send help through Jewish communities around the world).
These are just the first things that came to my head. There are many more examples such as these, if I'll remember more I'll add later, if those are not enough.

Edited by Erikl, 04 April 2004 - 01:03 PM.

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#25    Erikl

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 03:16 PM

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Im no-longer gonna respond to you errikl because i think you are actually a racist and a bigot , you try to disguise it but your hatred shines through.

Very mature... when you are out of things to say, you run to the "you are a racist" excuse, without any real facts to support this.

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