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Tulpa


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#1    nakajima the dreamer

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 06:51 PM

Tulpa

I know you guys had heard about this already. I made some research about this beacuse this is quite interesting. i will not post any links about that here and please search it yourself because i'm so sleepy ( i might post links later).

Pls search and read:
How to create a ghost : Philip
Tulpa- thoughtform

I would like to ask everyone if they have some experience(s) about this. Since there are doubts about these things i would really like to make a project about this w/ your help. So pls inform me if you would like to participate grin2.gif.


Ideas are welcomed xD.





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#2    aquatus1

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:08 PM

Perhaps one of the better western depictions of the creation and purpose of a tulpa would be the movie "Fight Club"


#3    louis_last

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 08:23 PM

I don't think Tyler durden would count as a tulpa because he is not in reality physically distinct from Ed norton, merely an alter ego, to any observers they appear as one and the same. A Tulpa is supposedly an actual flesh and blood person created by the power of somebody's will alone, in theory a tulpa could kill it's creator without harming itself and then create its own tulpa, however you should bear in mind that there is no such thing as tulpas.

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#4    aquatus1

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 09:21 PM

louis_last on Jan 2 2009, 08:23 PM, said:

I don't think Tyler durden would count as a tulpa because he is not in reality physically distinct from Ed norton, merely an alter ego, to any observers they appear as one and the same. A Tulpa is supposedly an actual flesh and blood person created by the power of somebody's will alone, in theory a tulpa could kill it's creator without harming itself and then create its own tulpa, however you should bear in mind that there is no such thing as tulpas.


This is true.  Perhaps I should say that, had Tyler Durden been perceived by others, in the way the the audience perceived him (as a separate individual), he would be an accurate representation of a tulpa.  Up to and including the general theory of dispersing a tulpa by acknowledging and accepting your "dark side" and re-absorbing it.

And yes, I am somewhat skeptical about the actual existence of actual tulpas.  If they have any sort of reality to them, I would consider it more along the lines of Tyler Durden than anything else, meaning psychological, rather than spiritual, in nature (granted, there might be some overlap between the two).


#5    louis_last

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Posted 02 January 2009 - 09:38 PM

I'm absolutely sure 'tyler durdens' exist but I'm pretty skeptical of reports involving tulpas with a physical presence.

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#6    nakajima the dreamer

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:20 AM

Uhmm.. So does this mean that the research conducted by these people here : http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa102201a.htm are fake/hoax?



Quote

The sessions took off from there, producing a range of phenomena that could not be explained scientifically. Through the table-rapping communication, the group was able to learn finer details about Philip's life. He even seemed to exhibit a personality, conveying his likes and dislikes, and his strong views on various subjects, made plain by the enthusiasm or hesitancy of his knockings. His "spirit" was also able to move the table, sliding it from side to side despite the fact that the floor was covered with thick carpeting. At times it would even "dance" on one leg.



Philip is an example of tulpa right? He's a fictitious character created by the participants and later then respond to the group's calling/questions. So if this is real, is it possible that to create a more physical form of Philip and other manifestations(the concept of tulpa?)?

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#7    Insight

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 09:53 AM

nakajima the dreamer on Jan 2 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

Tulpa

I know you guys had heard about this already. I made some research about this beacuse this is quite interesting. i will not post any links about that here and please search it yourself because i'm so sleepy ( i might post links later).

Pls search and read:
How to create a ghost : Philip
Tulpa- thoughtform

I would like to ask everyone if they have some experience(s) about this. Since there are doubts about these things i would really like to make a project about this w/ your help. So pls inform me if you would like to participate grin2.gif.


Ideas are welcomed xD.


Have you also heard that this phenomena is associated highly with schizophrenia? Schizophrenia isn't the same as Split Personality Disorder you know. Schizophrenia means "Split Mind".


When the people fight against the elite, it's an act of terror.
When the elite terrorizes the people, it's called justice.


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#8    eight bits

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 11:09 AM

Welcome aborad, nakajima.

Philip was conceived by the instructor-experimenter as a fiction. The student-subjects were convinced of Philip's existence because they were given his biography by somebody whom they thought was a scholar - that is, someone who could be relied upon to have carefully researched any fact claim he might make, and then to tell them the truth about it.

What happened from there is interesting from a social psychology, and "small group dynamics," standpoint. I agree with you that the experiment may shed light on reports of tulpas, and on some of the mechanisms involved. However, there is no reason to think that the group "created" Philip except in their own minds, as a shared belief of the group.

Nobody, including the experimenter, thought of "creating" Philip. The students thought he already existed, and the experimenter knew that he was the main character in an unpublished short story.

The whole incident is confirmation bias run amok. The "experiments within the experiment," that is, what the class did to gather evidence about Philip, are one long practical demonstration of how not to design an experiment. The claim you quoted

Quote

The sessions took off from there, producing a range of phenomena that could not be explained scientifically.

is laughable. All the "phenomena" were fully explained in the 19th and early 20th Centuries. People can move tables. The thickness of the carpet has nothing to do with it, apart from ensuring that their feet are cushy comfortable while they are lifting the table and telling one another that they are not lifting it.

If the students were conversant with their own field, as their instructor must have been, then they would know that their "tests" were no tests at all, just re-enactments of staple "medium's tricks."

The root Western tulpa report is still Alexandra David-Neel's. She had heard the Tibetan stories and decided to try to make a tulpa herself. She knowingly created a hallucination, which then convinced herself of its autonomy from her. She also reports a few cases where other people seemed to her to be asking about her creation. She infers that they, too, saw her creation.

That is very thin evidence for anything except the uncontroversial: that a person can consciously create a hallucination. Like any other learned performance, summoning the hallucination can become "automatized." Once automatic, it is routine for the performer to become dissociated from the performance. Everybody who drives a car knows that.

It is also very easy for one person to convince someone else that a fictitious person exists. Pull out your cellphone, as if it had "rung," and start talking into it. Everyone around you will swear that you are talking to someone who called you.

If you do a few more things over a span of time (and David-Neel was traveling around Tibet and camping out with her "witnesses"), then after a short while, your companions will "know" quite a bit about your fictitious person.

Add to this that if for any reason at all you thought you were not simply faking that first cellphone episode (you had heard a story that by talking into a cellphone, you might create a tulpa, for instance), then you have a "positive feedback loop" for a doozie of a delusion to take hold.

Finally, if the only report of the whole tale is your own, freely mixing your interpretation of your companions' reactions with observed facts, then it should be obvious how reliable that is.

The issue is not fake and hoax. The issue is what somebody can talk herself into, especially in the context of an isolated small group disposed to support the chosen belief.

Without realizing it, David-Neel was replicating an experiment that has long been in the literature. Gather, say, twelve people around you. Isolate them socially, for example, by convincing them to go on the road with you for months or a few years. Do some tricks along the way.

If you are at all good at it, and have chosen the right people, then they will come to believe that you are special, in whatever way you care to be thought special. Their belief might even "feedback" and reinforce your own ideas about your specialness.

Having come "to believe your own press releases," you just might die for that belief. Even after you're gone, your companions might well die for that belief, too. Before they die, they might recruit others into the belief.

There's simply no telling how many people might come to hold the belief, nor how long after the last eyewitness has died the belief might still be alive and kicking.

Small groups with time on their hands can do amazing things.

Edited by eight bits, 03 January 2009 - 11:10 AM.

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#9    nakajima the dreamer

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 02:14 PM

@eight bits - thank you! xD

Oh, so the members thought he was real? Sorry, i don't know that xD. I tend to not accept all of the infos when the reading material is so big or so many xD. So actually i did not much understand your statements xD. So please summarize it, sorry! But I do understand some of your statements grin2.gif. So the tulpa is still questionable?

@insight - Please elaborate your message. And as much as possible, make it direct to the point, for I may have misunderstood some of your statements. what  I understood is that you're telling me that David-Neel is suffering from schizophrenia  or somewhat like that?

Edited by nakajima the dreamer, 03 January 2009 - 02:17 PM.

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#10    aquatus1

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:06 PM

Eight Bits, that was fascinating. thumbsup.gif


#11    eight bits

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:07 PM

You may be interested

http://www.pararesearchers.org/Ghosts/Arti...ticle_five.html

And my apologies. In the original Philip exercise, the members of that group knew from the outset that the character was fictitious, and even collectively wrote the group's "biography of Philip." I was thinking of one of the subsequent replications when I posted. In that case, the student-teacher relationship was a factor, and the students were simply handed a biography written by the teacher without telling the students that it was fiction.

Since apparently it works either way, we may as well just go with the original.

Quote

So please summarize it,

My posts may be long, but they are easy. Just look at the last paragraph original.gif

Small groups with time on their hands can do amazing things.

As to the tulpa specifically, yes, I think people can conjure up hallucinations, and yes, I think that people can get other people to see them. There aren't too many Western tulpa reports to work with, and I don't know of any where the tulpa does something physical (defined as something that leaves evidence to be seen by someone who didn't see the tulpa, and not easily done except by the tulpa).

Hope that helps.

Edited by eight bits, 03 January 2009 - 03:10 PM.

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#12    nakajima the dreamer

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 03:32 PM

thumbsup.gif Wow! Thanks 8bits. I now get what you're saying xD. But do you think it is possible to make it more physical? And have apparitions of its own and NOT making others believe that they are there(or here xD) and them not knowing any connection of the tulpa to it's creator.

Quote

There aren't too many Western tulpa reports to work with


So, would you mind creating one? xD I mean make an experiment yourself. I am trying to create one, and I ask my friends to do the same thing too. Each of us will create our own tulpa(assuming it's real) and then i'll ask their progress and then try to observe/analyze things. I do hope we will have a good progression w/in 2-3 months xD. I'm also asking you guys to do the same. Instead of judging either if TULPA is real or not, why not let's make experiments ourselves.

I'll post the things concerned about the "experiment" if there are anyone here who would like to participate? It may not be real, but after a 1 and a half year experiment, we sure have something to call an assurance. The experiment/project will then be called PROJECT TULPA: Real or Not

xD. This will be fun, so guys, please participate. xD Well, you might look stupid doing this, but I assure you, you're not the only one xD.

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shall turn into reality.

#13    eight bits

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 08:00 PM

Quote

So, would you mind creating one?

Maybe I should hear how you make one before I answer original.gif.

Here's another thread that may interest you:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=139077

Oriana, the OP in that thread, got trolled, but she remains active here. You may wish to send her a personal message, and see whether she is interested in joining your project.

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#14    carrot sprite

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 08:09 PM

So isn't this the same idea as god?


#15    bLu3 de 3n3rgy

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Posted 03 January 2009 - 09:50 PM

^^ Could certainly be argued.  'Thought forms' and 'shedded off' energies that can build up in a building and take on an independent presence could be accountable for some types of hauntings. They are something I personally acknowledge or always see possible as happening under the right conditions.

There is also some interesting thoughts in connection with this, to say using the Ouija board, where you are talking about a formation of something projected via the collective energies and intent of a group subconsciously.

Edited by Lady_Anvilabeel, 03 January 2009 - 09:51 PM.

The Astral Projection Techniques Thread Here
*Golden rule, anything you extract, fill with light -- the universe doesn't like voids to be left.
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