65 replies to this topic

[Repoman]

Neognosis on Jan 15 2009, 02:35 PM, said:

In short, not having your phone tapped and not having your main intercepted and read without due process or a warrant is worth the death of innocents every now and then. That's how important freedom from oppressive gov't is.

Going after terrorists without having to worry about people complaining that the terrorists rights are being violated has nothing to do with having my mail read or our government oppressing us.  That's all that I was talking about.

[Neognosis]

Quote

A strange man comes up and kicks your child. Would you be angry? Or just... let it go? What if he did it again? And again? And again?

I would not want to pass a law banning all people from leaving their houses without passing a psyche evaluation or a law that requires a behavior modifying device be implanted into everyone to prevent them from kicking my kid though. The chance of my kid getting kicked is the price I would have to pay for the human rights and freedoms we enjoy. And it is worth it.

Those that limit individual freedoms for security deserve neither.

[Bez]

Neognosis on Jan 15 2009, 04:49 PM, said:

I would not want to pass a law banning all people from leaving their houses without passing a psyche evaluation or a law that requires a behavior modifying device be implanted into everyone to prevent them from kicking my kid though. The chance of my kid getting kicked is the price I would have to pay for the human rights and freedoms we enjoy. And it is worth it.

Those that limit individual freedoms for security deserve neither.

First of all the bolded statement says a lot about what you believe.  You're willing to allow things like that to happen based on the principle that you have freedom.  Let me ask you this.  Does the man kicking your child have the right to do that?

But anyways you misinterpreted my analogy.  

Man = terrorists/terrorism
You = US government
Child = US civilians
Kicking = Killing of civilians

So basically you are saying that its ok for terrorists to once and a while kill a couple thousand people because at the end of the day, those people who didnt die get to be free?  It's a shame that those who did die won't get to experience these wonderful rights.  And by the way, last time I checked I wasn't arrested for conspiring to terrorize.  This is mainly due to the fact that I don't want to, and I have no desire to.

My rights are not being infringed upon...I understand others are, but this isn't complete anarchy.

[Golden Hawk]

My husband was the Resident Officer in Charge of Contracts and Construction (ROICC) at Guantanamo Bay, for two and a half years before he retired.

The base was never intended as a POW camp, in fact the only reason those prisoners/terrorists were sent there was for the complete security the base offers.  The United States has been paying rent on GITMO for decades, long before Castro took over in the 1960's.   The base is fully self sufficent, and must rely on de-saltification plants made in the late 40's and one in the early 50's for ALL of their water.  ALL food and supplies are sent weekly by plane or boat.  Once assigned there NO ONE can leave the base except via airplanes.  No one, except a SMALL number of pre-Castro workers ever leave the base to go into mainland Cuba;  the small group of Cuban workers are the final remanents of a group that were allowed special clearance to continue working in the mainland area.  Once they have all died, the base will be permently sealed off from the Cuban mainland.

Before the prisoners were sent there there was barely enough to sustain the Naval personnel and their families, as well as a Public Works Dept which reported directly to the ROICC, and civilian contracters.  The approximate contingancy on board was @10,000 total.  The parimeter around the base included 2 mine fields, one was ours, the second was one the Cuban Army had put down after the OCT 1962 missle crisis between the US and the USSR.  And a barbed wire fence that had to be maintained by Marines 24/7.

All unecessary personnel were removed from the base when the first prisoners were originally sent in.  The Navy SeaBees were the ones to build the prison and its' compound.  The annual average temperature at Guantanamo Bay is 85-90degrees.

[Neognosis]

Quote

So basically you are saying that its ok for terrorists to once and a while kill a couple thousand people because at the end of the day, those people who didnt die get to be free?

Freedom and Liberty COST. Sometimes we have to pay up. Those who give up their freedom for securtiy deserve neither. Far better for a few thousand or even a million to die rather than this entire great nation lose it's liberty.

Quote

But anyways you misinterpreted my analogy.

Man = terrorists/terrorism
You = US government
Child = US civilians
Kicking = Killing of civilians

I didn't misinterpret your analogy. it was simplistic enough for me to follow. and my answer still stands.

Quote

I would not want to pass a law banning all people from leaving their houses without passing a psyche evaluation or a law that requires a behavior modifying device be implanted into everyone to prevent them from kicking my kid though. The chance of my kid getting kicked is the price I would have to pay for the human rights and freedoms we enjoy. And it is worth it.

[Ins0mniac]

Repoman on Jan 14 2009, 06:34 AM, said:

No it isn't. It's just a POW camp and we are at war. People like you would have been whining about the POW camps we kept germans in during WWII also.

Didn't Bush and his regime continuously state that the protection of the Geneva Convention did not apply to them because they were NOT prisoners of war but "enemy combatants"? Although the conservatives do tend to change their definitions depending on what's most advantageous to them at the time. The definition of war, torture, WMDS etc. it all depends what helps us the most at the time.

Edited by Ins0mniac, 21 January 2009 - 08:01 AM.

[Golden Hawk]

Ins0mniac on Jan 21 2009, 01:57 AM, said:

Didn't Bush and his regime continuously state that the protection of the Geneva Convention did not apply to them because they were NOT prisoners of war but "enemy combatants"? Although the conservatives do tend to change their definitions depending on what's most advantageous to them at the time. The definition of war, torture, WMDS etc. it all depends what helps us the most at the time.

Bush's attitude, once he was given the office of President was that he could say and do whatever he wanted.  He considered himself and his stooges completely above the law; remember the so-called Executive Privilege ploy he was forever using when anyone connected to him commited a federal offense and got caught?

In the first week of January 2009 VP Cheney and about 5 others received indictments from the Justice Departmen signed by 4 of the Supreme Court Justices (some of those same Justices had helped GWB get into office in 2000!).  The indictments list mentions several charges including; but not limited to;  torture of prisoners, murder of aliens who were "arrested" in Texas, NM, and Arizona, along the Mexican boarder.  VP Cheney had erected his own POW camp in Texas; which Bush was comnpletely aware of.  

An unknown number of "prisoners" were held at this camp for an unknown amount of time    .  The Justice Dept has withheld a great deal of details so as not to contaminate the case.  

There has also been information received from African nations that the US had built at least two POW camps which were declared to be off limits to the African governments, as well as any other authority.   

In the early years of his adminstration GWB visited several of the prison camps in Germany, such as Auschwitz and Dachou(sp?).  His comments remained the same at each camp he stated they were "marvelous" and on one occasion ""beautiful.  Those comments prove that G.W. Bush is completely mentally unstable.

[AROCES]

Seems like Obama didnt think much about closing Gunatanamo.
Now he has a problem of where to transfer the prisoners, other countries won't take them nor any Local districts.
We might see a Grand Reopening of Gunatanamo, but this time it will be 5 star rated.

[chaoszerg]

AROCES on May 1 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

We might see a Grand Reopening of Gunatanamo, but this time it will be 5 star rated.

Here is a new Guntanamo cell.



Taken from: http://www.mauritiustravel.co.za/images/sc...tra-image_6.jpg

I'll save you a seat, I am heading there now.  

[--Mandalore--]

AROCES on May 1 2009, 11:48 AM, said:

Seems like Obama didnt think much about closing Gunatanamo.
Now he has a problem of where to transfer the prisoners, other countries won't take them nor any Local districts.
We might see a Grand Reopening of Gunatanamo, but this time it will be 5 star rated.

I say put them in a high-security prison and then release them to the general populace. IMO that would solve that problem.

Quote

In the early years of his adminstration GWB visited several of the prison camps in Germany, such as Auschwitz and Dachou(sp?). His comments remained the same at each camp he stated they were "marvelous" and on one occasion ""beautiful. Those comments prove that G.W. Bush is completely mentally unstable.

Just speculation here. In the past they were both horrible and what went on in there was terrible, but perhaps he was commenting on how it looked now and not what went on 60yrs ago? Just a thought.




--Mandalore--

[Golden Hawk]

--Mandalore-- on May 1 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

Just speculation here.  
Perhaps he was commenting on how it looked now and not what went on 60yrs ago?
--Mandalore--

No speculation here.  

Bush was heard by his German hosts making the comments while he was looking in the ovens where prisoners were cooked alive.  

The recent  investigation by the Justice Department has proven that Dr. Condelisa  Rice, beginning in 2001, gave verbal orders to CIA agents "to use any means they [the agents] wanted, including torture to make prisoners talk".   Rice and Bush met multiple times in secret, sometimes with Cheney, discussing possible tortures that they wanted to use on POW's; this has has been proven by the Justice Department.

Guantanamo Bay a tourist spot?  Don't even think so.  Even by Cuban standards the base is isolated and  could never be considered to be more than a military installation, no matter who is in charge.  It still would be used for Naval & Marine warfare games by multiple countries, but could not be used as a tourist spot, I know I have seen the base.

OH, by the way .......... Guantanamo is one word, not two ;) .

Edited by Golden Hawk, 02 May 2009 - 04:04 AM.

[KRS-One]

Bez on Jan 15 2009, 05:35 PM, said:

It's a shame that those who did die won't get to experience these wonderful rights.  And by the way, last time I checked I wasn't arrested for conspiring to terrorize.  This is mainly due to the fact that I don't want to, and I have no desire to.

My rights are not being infringed upon...I understand others are, but this isn't complete anarchy.

Your statements are undefendable and monstrous.

Two quotes spring instantly to mind:

"If you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear."

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Your rights aren't being infringed on YET.  This is the slippery slope of absolute dictatorship over the people.  I would rather suffer 100 9/11's than suffer the loss of personal freedoms and the liberties this country supposedly stands for.

[Golden Hawk]

KRS-One on May 2 2009, 04:10 PM, said:

Your rights aren't being infringed on YET.  This is the slippery slope of absolute dictatorship over the people.

Please, hold that thought?

Just how, since President Obama has taken office, have the rights of the people been infringed upon?

Again, please hold that thought before you respond.  Thanks.

A minority of GOP right wing radicals began a libalous ad campaign against then Senator Obama while he was campaigning for the presidancy.  It intailed that Obama; with the help of the Democratic devil loving system; would confiscate all weapons owned by every citizen in the U.S.  

There was no truth to this horrible lie, and the radical Republicans who started the lie knew it.  Not once did Obama, nor McCain for that matter, ever mention the right to bear arms being forfieted if Obama won.

A dictatorship now?  Where, I don't see any infringement upon anyones rights, including yours, under Constitutional law since Obama took office.  Under the Republican control with der Furher Bush in office, you better believe we had a dictatorship!!!  

Eight misirable years of dictatorship, just look as Bush's record:

The GOP Conventions of 2000 and 2004, two seperate groups of protestors applied for and received permission to picket the GOP conventions.  Both years Bush ordered the local authorities to put both groups in isolation blocks away from the convention hall where he would not have to see them.  

The 2000 Group was placed in the middle of a park without access to shade, water or portable toilets (which the authorities removed).  Several of the protesters collapsed from the heat, and at least 11 of them, including a gentleman who was a diabetic, had to be hospitalized.  This gentleman and his daughter were threatened with arrest by Secret Service personnel when they tried to leave the park after the man had collapsed.

The 2004 GOP Convention was in Chicago where the protestors were taken by bus to a deserted warehouse near the river (** this event was videoed by a CNN reporter from the rooftop of a building across the street from the warehouse and shown on all national TV channels during the convention**).  The building did not have electricity, nor running water, nor sanitary facilities; just like in 2000.  The protesters were held for six hours without being allowed to contact family, friends or other authorities;  it was the Secret Service (*aka the SS*) who "kidnapped" these protestors at Bush's order.

Permission and orders were given to CIA and FBI agents allowing them to enter any home or business without warrent or cause. .  To arrest anyone whom der Furher Bush "imagined" to be a threat to his control; they came to be known as "Subversives" or "The Inner Enemy"; a product of Bush's alchoholic, drug induced mania.  I know a few of them.

Allowing illegal aliens to be hired by Haliburton, Inc.  It was these illegal aliens who were sent into New Orleans after Katrina, they broke into undamaged homes and literally destroy the buildings.  I have, that should be had, family and friends who lived in New Orleans.  They could not go back because their home was destroyed, not by Katrina, but by the Haliburton employees.

This and more are permenent and public record.  Former VP Cheney and at least four of former President Bush's people were indicted in January for maintaining a "ranch" in Texas where illegal aliens were held and tortured.  The CIA records of the torture POW camps in Africa are still being read;  not for those with weak  stomachs.
Bush will go down as the worse president in the history of this country.  Hopefully he will be tried for treason (he gave money to the Al Quieda leader Osama bin Lauden on several occasions, the Bush family has known the ben Laudens since the 1960's), Crimes Against Humanity, etc.  And we make sure he pays for the trials not the tax payers he destroyed.

Edited by Golden Hawk, 03 May 2009 - 03:52 AM.

[AROCES]

Golden Hawk on May 3 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

This and more are permenent and public record.  Former VP Cheney and at least four of former President Bush's people were indicted in January for maintaining a "ranch" in Texas where illegal aliens were held and tortured.  The CIA records of the torture POW camps in Africa are still being read;  not for those with weak  stomachs.

There is a forum for conspiracies, tabloids, gossips and fairy tales.

Quote

]Bush will go down as the worse president in the history of this country.  Hopefully he will be tried for treason (he gave money to the Al Quieda leader Osama bin Lauden on several occasions, the Bush family has known the ben Laudens since the 1960's), Crimes Against Humanity, etc.  And we make sure he pays for the trials not the tax payers he destroyed.[/b]

Jimmy Carter will be tough to unthrone, no matter how hard you guys try.
And this crime against humanity crap will eventually just fade.

Edited by AROCES, 03 May 2009 - 04:20 PM.

[KRS-One]

Golden Hawk on May 2 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

Please, hold that thought?

Just how, since President Obama has taken office, have the rights of the people been infringed upon?

I think you misunderstood me to be making an argument against Obama, when I was really pointing at the types of legislation and enforcement of policies created by the Bush administration in response to 9/11 which had erroded personal liberties in exchange for the perception of safety.