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Obama to issue close of Guant'anamo


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#61    KRS-One

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 03:00 AM

Man that's a lot of posting.


#62    MID

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 06:57 PM

KRS-One on May 16 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

It's foolish of me to think that the "expert legal opinion" on torture defined a method of torture as being legal for the administration said legal opinion worked for?  Interesting.  If they determined that the moon was made of cheese, does that mean that it is, in fact, now cheese?  No?  What then is the difference?  
It's harmless.  Being made to think you're dying 266 times certainly doesn't affect someone mentally.  At all.



266 times...yea.
Being made to think you're dying...does make one talk.
It's a bit different than making someone know they're going to die, and then killing them....





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Do YOU know who "these people" are?  All of them?  Without a doubt some are truly terrorists.  Others?  Do you even know their names?  How can you or any of us possibly argue for or against them or their case?  Some have already been released, completely innocent, and still tortured.  I am also not supporting a position of putting them in American prisons.  Without a doubt they'd be slaughtered there.  It would also include one heck of a legal fight, since we've denied them any right to a trial or few of the other legal liberties given to American prisoners.


Really?
Who has been tortured and then released?

Plenty have been released, and plenty of them have rejoined their terrorist organizations.

Really...you over inflate the extent to which enhanced interrogation has been done.  There are only a few who've been subjected to it, and we've gained invaluable information from it, which, as I said, proof of which has been refused as pertains to its release...



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Sorry to Godwin this thing, but the Nazi's, Japanese, Koreans, and Vietnamese all also had many doctors present during "interrogations".


Yea...and the Japanese, Koreans, and Vietnamese weren't interrogating illegal alien enemy conbatants who had attacked their countries like cowards and employed methods which were against rules of war anywhere, were they?   Besides, you grossly underestimate the barbaric nature of what people went through under the hands of the Japanese and Vietnamese especially.  What they did to prisoners makes waterboarding look like a walk in the park, and is nothing like anything Americans have ever done to prisoners.



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Let me ask you, are these individuals the same individuals who committed these crimes?  Are you SURE that they are one and the same men, or just men close enough to pacify your apparent need for vengeance?


It is not a matter of vengeance.  It is a matter of protecting the American people from an unseen and unaffiliated enemy who is hell bent toward the destruction of values contrary to their own and the people who hold to those values.   It's about protecting Americans from the cowardly and brutal tactics of these people.

The individuals left in Gitmo are all affilaited with this enemy.






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I forget nothing.  YOU forget the concepts this country was founded on because you are incapable of anything but black and white decision making and the shortsightedness of taking at face value "These are naughty people".  YOU forget that we owe ourselves and others inalienable human rights and liberties as perscribed by our forefathers and laid bare for us at the founding of this country and for such values many thousands have died.  I have said before and will say again, now, that I would suffer 100 9/11 events, or 1000 if it meant that American virtues and liberty were maintained and not shucked to the wayside in the name of bloody vengeance and tyranny.  You have sold yourself and this country short.


???

We owe our people the protection they deserve against an enemy that wants our destruction.  We owe Americans the safety and security that the Constitution mandates.  We don't own unaffilliated, cowardly enemies any such thing.  We give it to them, much more than they would or have afforded us, but we don't own them anything. That is not a matter of vengeance, it is a matter of doing what is necessary in extremely unusual and dangerous circumstances to protect Americans.  That is a Constitutional obligation of our President, and is based upon the principals upon which this country was founded.

If you would endure 1000 9-11 events to insure that we didn't do everything necessary to insure the prevention of such events, then you adhere to completely un-American values.

It's not about bloody vengeance and tyranny.  It's about the protection of America.

How this seems to be ignored by so many is utterly amazing to me.


#63    SQLserver

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 06:16 PM

MID)

If you would endure 1000 9-11 events to insure that we didn't do everything necessary to insure the prevention of such events, then you adhere to completely un-American values.

The founding fathers and the revolutionary soldiers would endure 10,000 9/11 attacks before becoming tyrants.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin.

The most un-American thing one can do right now is give in to terrorists, as our country did in the last 8 years.

I can quite assure you that when we instituted such blatant anti-American policies such as the suspension of habeus corpus, the use of brutal torture tactics in Gitmo., and warrentless wiretapping, the Taliban brought out the champagne to celebrate.

These policies do not fight terrorists, but rather aid them in a way that an army, said:

If you would endure 1000 9-11 events to insure that we didn't do everything necessary to insure the prevention of such events, then you adhere to completely un-American values.

The founding fathers and the revolutionary soldiers would endure 10,000 9/11 attacks before becoming tyrants.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin.

The most un-American thing one can do right now is give in to terrorists, as our country did in the last 8 years.

I can quite assure you that when we instituted such blatant anti-American policies such as the suspension of habeus corpus, the use of brutal torture tactics in Gitmo., and warrentless wiretapping, the Taliban brought out the champagne to celebrate.

These policies do not fight terrorists, but rather aid them in a way that an army of thousands could not.


Cheers,
SQLserver

Edited by SQLserver, 18 May 2009 - 06:19 PM.


#64    MID

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 03:25 PM

SQLserver on May 18 2009, 02:16 PM, said:

The founding fathers and the revolutionary soldiers would endure 10,000 9/11 attacks before becoming tyrants.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Ben Franklin.


The founding fathers and revolutionary soldiers could never have imagined a 9-11.
And "temporary safety" is not what this is about.  This is about a cowardly enemy, unafilliated with any nation, who's motive is to eliminate resistance to its zealous religious cause...the most critical type of danger free peoples can face.  

What's all this tyranny you speak of?  The exaggerations inherent in any such discussion amaze me.

  

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The most un-American thing one can do right now is give in to terrorists, as our country did in the last 8 years.


Give in?  We've been defeating them.  I cannot understand the mindset that says such things.

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I can quite assure you that when we instituted such blatant anti-American policies such as the suspension of habeus corpus, the use of brutal torture tactics in Gitmo., and warrentless wiretapping, the Taliban brought out the champagne to celebrate.


No American was effected by the "suspension" of a right which is inherent to all Americans.  It is not a right of any terrorist.
Further, if you examine the Constitution, you will noite that Habeus Corpus can, in rare and critical circumstances, and has been suspended even for American citizens.  

Three people were waterboarded.  Three.  Ten minute sessions, supervised.  It's not brutal...it's effective, as we've seen.  It's mighty damned unpleasant, but no one has been maimed, physically debilitated, or anything else because of it, and American lives have been saved.


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These policies do not fight terrorists, but rather aid them in a way that an army of thousands could not.


So...
We do not gain critical information, through effective enhanced tactics, rarely applied and only to a few critical people who rightfully should be dead anyway.  We do not do what Presidents have legally done all the way back to FDR: listen to suspect communications covertly to uncover threats to national security, and of course, we don't lock all these yahoos up in a camp where they can be monitored and controlled...we allow illegal alien enemy combatants who acknowledge no rules and no rights to anyone, who would cut of your mother's head, who would go back to bombing defenseless civilians in the streets, who would shield themselves with civilians and who train their children to hate and kill and even die for the cause themselves...as if that had some merit--

--we should allow them rights of American citizens???

We still have a very long way to go to get this country back on track again...

wacko.gif


Cheers,
SQLserver



#65    ninjadude

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 05:20 AM

MID on May 23 2009, 10:25 AM, said:

Three people were waterboarded.  Three.  Ten minute sessions, supervised.  It's not brutal...it's effective, as we've seen.  It's mighty damned unpleasant, but no one has been maimed, physically debilitated, or anything else because of it, and American lives have been saved.


Waterboarded. "you mean tortured".

Three people "that we know of".

ten minutes. "Hundreds of times".

Not brutal. "try it sometime. it is extremely".

Effective. "Not according to the military and government"

[not] physically debilitated. "possibly not. but mentally definately."

American lives saved. "not even in your wildest dreams".



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#66    Cadetak

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 08:51 AM

MID on May 23 2009, 11:25 AM, said:

Give in?  We've been defeating them.  I cannot understand the mindset that says such things.


they are Terrorists...and they have exceeded in installing a great deal of fear into the public.


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