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Mushrushu


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#46    draconic chronicler

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 02:01 PM

draconic chronicler on Feb 4 2009, 07:04 AM, said:

Not at all.  Yesterday I did notice the challenge, and in fact, posted the first post in the debate which was an acknowledgment of the challenge.  Then I attended other business and went to bed.  If you had made a post in the meantime, I will check it out now, but may not be able to reply until after work.


Ah, I see the moderators removed my first comment so you couldn't have known I acknowledged the debate.  But I was able to make my first 'formal' reponse to your first statement before I leave so you wouldn't think I'm stalling.  I'll check again when I come home this evening.



#47    legionromanes

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 04:12 PM

draconic chronicler on Feb 4 2009, 01:04 PM, said:

Not at all.  Yesterday I did notice the challenge, and in fact, posted the first post in the debate which was an acknowledgment of the challenge.  Then I attended other business and went to bed.  If you had made a post in the meantime, I will check it out now, but may not be able to reply until after work.

I'm still wondering why you needed to do that, the rules stated quite clearly that I was to post first, your actual first post is again entirely unsupported opinion,
if you don't have the sources to prove what you say then thats probably why no one believes anything you say on the subject. I was looking forward to a formal debate, not another rant
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#48    Orion Williamson

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 04:38 PM

legionromanes on Feb 3 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

what it basically comes down to is either

dragons really existed
dragons never existed

its not a hard decision as theres no evidence at all for the former and loads of evidence for the latter

Peace on the Field muh friends! Peace on the Field says unto you yer old farmer!


I have this thought : What if King Cyrus Dragon was something else at all. Something that was not until now thought of here.

I think one can seriously theorize Cyrus could very well have had a very special and spectacular animal as a "Holy pet" in his temple.
And he had a sumerian exta name for that sort of Creature which we today translate into "Dragon" for not knowing better.

But, muh friends, even if we all like Dinosaurs very much - It is more than little far fetched to say that Cyrus had one.
But it is also true that the "not so dumb at all sumerians" sure knew theyr crocodiles and the like very well.
Cyrus and his Priests would not risk to become a laughing stock if they had tried to masquerade a crocodile as a "holy mystical dragon"

I have a new Idea :
What if King Cyrus dragon was really a "Cross-Breed between Species" ? A Hybrid animal! The King sure had the money and resorces to either buy such a hybrid somewhere or secretly to let his animal-specialists do a crossing that would look spectacular so that it could be presented for fame as a "holy temple dragon"

In this case especially the "Liger" comes to my mind. The Crossing between a male lion and a female tiger.
The liger is a hybrid cross between a male lion and a female tiger (not to be confused with a tigon). It is the largest of all cats and extant felines.

Size and growth

Imprinted genes may be a factor contributing to liger size.[3] These are genes that may or may not be expressed on the parent they are inherited from, and that occasionally play a role in issues of hybrid growth. For example, in some dog breed crosses, genes that are expressed only when maternally-inherited cause the young to grow larger than is typical for either parent breed. This growth is not seen in the paternal breeds, as such genes are normally "counteracted" by genes inherited from the female of the appropriate breed.[4]
The tiger produces a hormone that sets the fetal liger on a pattern of growth that does not end throughout its life. The hormonal hypothesis is that the cause of the male liger's growth is its sterility — essentially, the male liger remains in the pre-pubertal growth phase. Male ligers also have the same levels of testosterone on average as an adult male lion. In addition, female ligers also attain great size, weighing approximately 700 lb (320 kg) and reaching 10 feet (3.05 m) long on average, and are often fertile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger

Meaning : Because of a Hibrydical Growth-Gene-Thing the Liger becomes unbeliavably big, as big as a Lion and a tiger together, as voluminous as a horse and never stops to grow.
It could scare a modern day person to death if that person doesnt know about ligers. In old sumeria surely normal citicens did not know facts about the liger for even today it is seldom enough that such a hybrid is born in a zoological garden. And the ligers size and special anatomy could for a perplexed person partly overshadow that it is felinous at all. Perhaps the priests did even go further and painted or masqueraded the hybrid to make him look even more famous.

I think Cyrus theoretically could have gotten his hands on a Tiger for to let it mate with a lion. I know they today only live in asia, but Science knows there was long long ago an african tiger too that later died out. I dont know if there were some around in Cyrus time still, but Cyrus could have gotten his hands somehow on an indian or asian tiger.
My Point is : Cyrus getting a Tiger for breeding a Liger or getting a Liger from somewhere is fo sure more plausible Than King Cyrus petting a LIVING DINOSAUR in his temple, even if so much people find it attractive to have that thought.

Now look . I do find resemblances between Cyrus Dragon and liger :
linked-image
linked-image



#49    legionromanes

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 05:35 PM

this is only ok if you are ignoring the earlier depictions of dragons which the Neo Babylonian depiction is derived from and everything that is known about reptile genetics
so no not really
thumbsup.gif

I'm leaving out the fact that Cyrus at no time claimed to have a dragon in a temple, that was a claim attributed to Nebuchadrezzar II in an apocryphal bible story, its certainly not something that was ever claimed in his lifetime

Edited by legionromanes, 04 February 2009 - 05:37 PM.


#50    catutie

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 09:43 PM

...........i see........a......HUGE DIFFERENCE lol sorry but im not seeing any similarities.....well except the body a little bit happy.gif


#51    Archosaur

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 12:18 AM

Orion Williamson on Feb 4 2009, 11:38 AM, said:

Peace on the Field muh friends! Peace on the Field says unto you yer old farmer!


I have this thought : What if King Cyrus Dragon was something else at all. Something that was not until now thought of here.

I think one can seriously theorize Cyrus could very well have had a very special and spectacular animal as a "Holy pet" in his temple.
And he had a sumerian exta name for that sort of Creature which we today translate into "Dragon" for not knowing better.

But, muh friends, even if we all like Dinosaurs very much - It is more than little far fetched to say that Cyrus had one.
But it is also true that the "not so dumb at all sumerians" sure knew theyr crocodiles and the like very well.
Cyrus and his Priests would not risk to become a laughing stock if they had tried to masquerade a crocodile as a "holy mystical dragon"

I have a new Idea :
What if King Cyrus dragon was really a "Cross-Breed between Species" ? A Hybrid animal! The King sure had the money and resorces to either buy such a hybrid somewhere or secretly to let his animal-specialists do a crossing that would look spectacular so that it could be presented for fame as a "holy temple dragon"

In this case especially the "Liger" comes to my mind. The Crossing between a male lion and a female tiger.
The liger is a hybrid cross between a male lion and a female tiger (not to be confused with a tigon). It is the largest of all cats and extant felines.


Well, Orion, while Cyrus would have certainly have been in the position, and had the resources, for a liger, I cannot see how it would match what was on the fresco. Lions were native to the region at that time, and royalty would have been familiar with them as hunting trophies and pets. Depictions of the time (of lions) are accurate, and they would not have been considered supernatural creatures.

That said, prehaps such crossbreeding did occur in royal menageries...



#52    catutie

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 12:22 AM

well they could have seen the lion and the tiger as the most powerful and the mightiest of beasts so just put together they are pictured as a GOD!!!!!!!!! thumbsup.gif


#53    The Gremlin

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 12:41 AM

what about having the hind legs of an eagle...menage et trois?

and the serpent's neck and head?

horn?

nope not the result of genetic experimentation, but a cultural and mythical construct.

dragons are as real as triangles.



I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#54    legionromanes

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:07 AM

Quote

there are no new stories, there are simply old stories retold

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#55    draconic chronicler

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:16 AM

legionromanes on Feb 4 2009, 11:35 AM, said:

this is only ok if you are ignoring the earlier depictions of dragons which the Neo Babylonian depiction is derived from and everything that is known about reptile genetics
so no not really
thumbsup.gif

I'm leaving out the fact that Cyrus at no time claimed to have a dragon in a temple, that was a claim attributed to Nebuchadrezzar II in an apocryphal bible story, its certainly not something that was ever claimed in his lifetime


No, based on the real history Nebuchanezzar had at least one or two succesors before the Persians conquered Babylon and Cyrus was the conqueror, but the Bible says Darius.  The Lion's Den and Dragon stories take place AFTER the Persians conquer  Babylon.

Cyrus woud have been Zoroastrian, but he gave the babylonians freedom to worhip their own gods.  If the dragon were real, it would have simply been from the Babylonian times, it would not be something he brought there.  The dragon was Sacred to Marduk, the cheif Babylonain God.

But as I have shown, the Hebrews had even forgotten the name of the King of Persia when this story was written centuries later.


#56    draconic chronicler

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:19 AM

lil gremlin on Feb 4 2009, 06:41 PM, said:

what about having the hind legs of an eagle...menage et trois?

and the serpent's neck and head?

horn?

nope not the result of genetic experimentation, but a cultural and mythical construct.

dragons are as real as triangles.



You should know that dinosur feet (and undoubtedly dragon feet) DO look like eagle feet.  And some DO have long necks and serpent like heads.  And some dinosaurs and perhaps dragons have one or more horns.


#57    draconic chronicler

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:21 AM

catutie on Feb 4 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

well they could have seen the lion and the tiger as the most powerful and the mightiest of beasts so just put together they are pictured as a GOD!!!!!!!!! thumbsup.gif


No, they though dragons were the mightiest.  The greatest Sumerian gods were called "Great Serpent Dragons of Heaven".


#58    legionromanes

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:26 AM

draconic chronicler on Feb 5 2009, 01:21 AM, said:

No, they though dragons were the mightiest.  The greatest Sumerian gods were called "Great Serpent Dragons of Heaven".

yes ok, if you like, any source on that ?
please see my latest response to your intellectualism here
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2729270
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#59    draconic chronicler

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:43 PM

legionromanes on Feb 4 2009, 07:26 PM, said:

yes ok, if you like, any source on that ?
please see my latest response to your intellectualism here
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p;#entry2729270
thumbsup.gif


Sure, plenty of sources including your ETCSL.   You lose.

Enlil, faithful shepherd of the teeming multitudes, herdsman, leader of all living creatures...He alone is the prince of heaven, THE DRAGON OF THE EARTH. The lofty god of the Anuna himself determines the fates."



(p. 323. "Enlil in the E-kur." Jeremy Black, Graham Cunningham, Eleanor Robson & Gabor Zolyomi.

The Literature of Ancient Sumer. Oxford University Press. 2004 hardcover, 2006 paperback with corrections)



The Sumerian text behind the above translation, revealing that Enlil the ushumgal is a "dragon":



"...an-na dili nun-bi-im ki-a ušumgal-bi-im..."



(line 100. Enlil in the E-kur (Enlil A). transliteration: c.4.05.1 ETCSL, Oxford University, Oxford, United Kingdom)



"He alone is the prince of heaven, the dragon of the earth."



(line 100. Enlil in the E-kur (Enlil A). translation: c.4.05.1 ETCSL, Oxford University, Oxford, United Kingdom


#60    legionromanes

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:39 PM

lol I'm amazed at the way that your preconceived beliefs have led you so far into la la land without you noticing

tell me

was Bel Marduk also able to transform himself into a dragon ?

thumbsup.gif

or if you find it easier, how about the head of the KKK,

or how about Vlad Tepes ?

w00t.gif

Edited by legionromanes, 05 February 2009 - 10:41 PM.





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