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#46    Curiosity

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 02:59 AM

Well, this is what I get for visiting the skeptic's corner... rolleyes.gif  

Our doubts are traitors,
And make us lose the good we oft might win
By fearing the attempt.
-W. Shakespeare

#47    aquatus1

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 01:24 PM

True.  One doesn't come in here expecting automatic agreement with any supernatural, or for that matter, scientific idea.  In the world of the skeptic, Occam's Razor rules, and evidence is paramount.  Your theories can be as outlandish as you wish, provided you can back them with a logical conclusion drawn from imperical evidence.


#48    Chauncy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 03:18 PM

QUOTE
Over 40% of scientists in the US believe in a God


This is totally untrue!!!  This stat probably came from some christian Apologetic sites.
If this many scientists believed in God, well there would be no-more need for discovery would there?.....this is propaganda built on a bias interpretation of truth!

QUOTE
Evoloution has not been proven scientifically. Because theres no proof of speciation


This is untrue also. Scientist don't need a perfect intact fossilization form of speciation to know it happened, the same way they don't need to put red dye in the air to know the wind blows. A Christian would need the red dye! Its funny that the whole of biological science is based on the principal of evolution, and with all the new discoveries and advancements we still have not found one thing to say that evolution isn't happeneing. Anything that has been around for 200 years like the theory of evolution and has stood up to all scientific test we must then realize that it is more than just a theory. What Venom meant when he said "not been scientifically proven" was "not religiously proven"....which means nothing.

QUOTE
If certain physists are correct about the speed of light the universe may be only about 8000-10000 years old, and therefore evoloution would be impsossible and there would have to be a creator.


Who are the "certain" physists?.......Hubble looks at images from objects from millions of light years away. So Hubble is in essence looking in the past, because it takes millions of years for light to travel these distances, so since we are looking at the images a million years must have passed.......you said evolution would be impossible based on the non- fact you raised about light years.....propoganda

QUOTE
And the human body is not just cells and chemicals, there is also energy, of some kind.Learning is what life is all about. If we didnt have to learn, life would be boring.


This point here Venom hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!






As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer. (1904-1967)
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#49    saucy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 03:51 PM

I heard a story about one case where there was a window high up in the room and on that window was a blue something, I can't remember what it was, except that it was blue.  You couldn't see the blue thing from where you entered the room or where you were laying.  This was at a hospital.  The person was dead as they wheeled him into the room and was dead for several minutes after and when he woke-up, he told of a story about floating  high and seeing the blue object in the window.  None of the doctors knew about the blue object, nor could they see it, so one of the doctors climbed up the window and there it was, just as the boy described it.  Many other people claim that they floated up above their body and witnessed everything that was going on and heard every word people were saying.  Some actually visit heaven.  I have a friend who accidentally shot himself in the head and he actually recalled floating above his body towards a white light and he saw his dead grandmother, pointing for him to go back.  Most of these cases involve a white light and dead relatives.  No, not everyone sees this, but not everybody is going to heaven either!


#50    saucy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 04:00 PM

Oh yeah, what's this crap about living for some God?  You make it sound like it's pure and utter torture to believe in God.  You don't have to go to church, some christians don't, but even if you did, just read the bible and pray every now and then and go to church for like an hour, maybe two on Sunday's and that's it.  What's wrong with following the ten commandments?  Most of them are laws set by most countries.  There are a lot of misconceptions about the bible.  Nowhere does it say you can't drink alcohol.  Jesus himself turned water into wine.  It doesn't say you can't do drugs.  God created the plants, but just don't get addicted.  Don't eat to much or become this egotistical maniac that is self-fish, lazy, has too much pride, eats too much and only cares about himself.  Sex is something for married couples.  You have many problems if you can't keep your pants on until you're married.  Sex has become an addiction to many people and it's wrong.  Many people end up suffering for the rest of their life and end what was going to be a good life just for a couple of minutes of pleasure (a couple of minutes is even stretching it for some of you!) .  Even if you make a few mistakes, that's okay.  We all make mistakes and do the wrong things a lot of times, but there's a little thing called the cross.  Because of the cross, we can make those mistakes and learn from then and receive forgiveness.  Going to church for an hour a week, reading the bible and being an overall good person is all that's involved in religion, to get into the kingdom of heaven.  You don't have to be an all-out devout religious fanatic or anything.  


#51    Chauncy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE
Going to church for an hour a week, reading the bible and being an overall good person is all that's involved in religion, to get into the kingdom of heaven. You don't have to be an all-out devout religious fanatic or anything.


You don't have to go to church or worship anything to be a good person!!!!!

And there is much more involved with religion then just reading the Bible and going to church an hour a week.....it has to do with the propagation of ignorance, the propagation of credulous explainations......all this done to fill congregations and to prevent man from rising up over top of the idea of a Judgement, Salvation, or Damnation.......There are NO CHOSEN people in this world, not you or anyone else, we are the same......GET USED TO IT!!!!


As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
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#52    saucy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 04:25 PM

I will not get used to it because it is not true!  No, you don't have to go to church to be a good person. we are not the same!  There is no real normal.  I don't like what you like, I don't believe what you believe, I don't look like you, I don't have the same tolerances of anything as you do, I have different world views than you, I have different genes and inherited traits than you.  Other than being a human, we have nothing in common, we are nothing alike, we are not the same in any shape, form, way, or fashion.  I do not think Christians look at themselves as being better.  They aren't even a race of people!  People of all races, shapes, sizes and colors are Christian.  We don't worship God to be outcasts, to think we're better than everyone, to have a leg-up when it comes to the afterlife.  I'm a christian because I believe in God and I believe I'm going to heaven.  Yes, Christianity has been violent in the past, but we are more quiet these days.  We are a good group of people.  You look at us as fanatics and the true evil in the world.  We are not.  It's not like a gang where you have to be jumped to get in.  Anyone can join, be a part.  There is no race, it's a religion.  

Being a good person is the philosphy of Christianity.  I know there are a few churches and pastors that give us a bad rep, but not all of them are the same.  My church doesn't expect you to give them money.  Actually, no church expects it.  They just hand around the collection plate to those who want to give to the church.  Nobody really knows or cares if you donated a cent.  They don't keep score.  You don't have to give a cent to be a christian.  I'm a pastor at my church and I've never donated a cent.  I paid my dues by volunteering whenever I could.  I don't know why people like you put down Christianity.  Maybe because it's the popular thing to do here at this site, but what is popular isn't always what's right and what's right isn't always popular.  I'm doing what I feel is right and I've been chastised for it by many of you athiests, but I don't stop.  I'm probably thought of as an ignorant as#hole or whatever, but I don't care.  The girl wanted help, so I gave her my version of it, just like you did, but I didn't criticize you and your version of the truth, did I?  No, but you and others like you criticize me continuously.  


#53    Chauncy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 05:03 PM

QUOTE
Other than being a human, we have nothing in common, we are nothing alike, we are not the same in any shape, form, way, or fashion.


I think you knew what I meant by being the same as in the context of 'Chosen'.
The fact is that christians do think they are better than non-believers, I see it on their awfull bumper stickers that read "Real Men Love Jesus" or when they claim they will be rewrded in heaven for dancing around like school girls every Sunday.
When you put yourself on a higher platform then the rest of your society you will in fact have farther to fall when the truth is exposed. You wanna know another way that we are different besides our sense of style?...I'm different from you because I know that people are not rewarded for what they believe but rather for what they do, and this reward isn't administered in rations of milk and honey either, its doled out in peace of mind!!

QUOTE
Yes, Christianity has been violent in the past, but we are more quiet these days.


Never-the-less you are a representative of a horrific plague that has had the staying power of a terminal illness inflicted on man by man. You say Christians are quiet these days?....Really?.....So those were not Christians I saw on the news toting signs that read "Jesus Hates Fags" or your telling me that Jerry Falwell is not the Christian who said that 911 was a result of God's anger on the US for abortion, Fags, pornography and what have you?......your telling me that it isn't Christians who say that non-believers are going to burn in hellfire for not submitting to your good book?..........guilty as charged I say!!!......the actions of those in your group reflect on you as well!.......what do you think saucy that Christians say oh yes we did destroy alot of mankind's past and attempted to destroy his future, but we are different now.....thats funny because I haven't seen any change in doctrine to show that to be true.

QUOTE
You look at us as fanatics and the true evil in the world. We are not. It's not like a gang where you have to be jumped to get in. Anyone can join, be a part. There is no race, it's a religion.


a Wolf in sheeps clothing thats what it is, you say anyone can join, its just that the prerequisite demands ignorance. For you must leave all the truths in the world at the door and jump right into your pool of self righteousness, because you are always up against the truth.....Its funny that a religion that throws the word 'Truth' around so much doesn't realize the biggest threat to its existence is in fact the 'Truth'

QUOTE
We are a good group of people.


I agree somewhat:).....most Christians are good people, there are bad examples, many in fact, but you must realize saucy that if you were to stand up on your own and proclaim this path of righteousness without God or the threat of damnation that you in fact would be alot stronger in your pursuits and would be a pillar to your peers......To stand up and say I will do good amongst this world because thats what I feel is right, is a far more severe example of strength and prestige then that of any religious proclomation.

QUOTE
I've been chastised for it by many of you athiests, but I don't stop. I'm probably thought of as an ignorant as#hole or whatever, but I don't care.


First off I'm not an athiest!, I can see why you would use your broad stroked brush to lable me as such but thats not the case. I don't think your ignorant at all saucy, thats why it is so hard for me to hear you say the things you do.

Maybe you could share with us why you entered into Christianity to shed some light on this subject?







As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
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#54    saucy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 06:15 PM

Alright, I'll give you the shortened version of the life story.  I believe my life events led me to becoming a pastor so i'll start with the beginning.  The first thing I remember doing was writing.  Since I was five, I've always written stories and was a good story-teller for my age.  As I grew, I lived with my mom in Texas.  She was a confused women, we always lived somewhat in poverty.  Never had a car, always on food stamps, lived in a shack with no running water, house made of plastic, infested with bugs, it was aweful.  My dad was in and out of jail.  That's the boo part.  I've never complained about a thing and refuse to do so now.  Growing up like that made me into the man I am today.  I'm happy with what I got instead of thinking the world owes me something like most people.  Anyway, writing was something I've always done and still do today.  When I was about nine or ten, I started to get into science.  Man, I loved science.  Part of me always believed in God, but that was it.  I didn't go to church or nothing.  Few times my mom did drag me around to a church here, a church there, no big deal.  But I loved science.  I was too young to know that science and religion are on total opposite sides of the spectrum.  I knew all the planets and just about everything about them.  I attempted to memorize the table of elements, all three hundred or so of them and their numbers and what they all are.  I entered science fairs and whatever.  My science self entered with me into age 13 when I decided to leave that crappy life and move in with my changed father.  We moved to Michigan, a state of such beauty that I'll refuse to live anywhere else except there.  I'm a big guy so my dad thought my talents would be used better if I played football.  I've always been the loner and didn't care much for people, but all that changed once I actually started to play.  I changed my whole lifestyle and made so many friends it was crazy.  I loved my lifestyle so much I got lazy in school and even failed what was once my favorite subject, biology in my first year in high school.  I wasn't the wild child that went out and had sex, did drugs or anything.  Me and my friends made a vow that we would never ruin our bodies with that crap and though they broke that vow, I have not and will not.  THis is the point where I was smart enough to realize that if evolution happened, if the earth is billions of years old, then there cannot be a God.  I played 8th, 9th, and part of 10th grade football until an injury ruined my playing career so playing football is out for me.  So, I focued on my other love: writing.  I've written many novels and short storied and I am currently working on one right now to try and get published.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  Anyway, I still defended evolution.  It was the truth!  I even had a christian friend and we would argue about the age of the earth.  I said, "It's billions of years old!"  He would just laugh at me and say it's seven thousand years old.  I was like, man, you're crazy and messed up in the head.  I went the next few years, just writing, trying to make something of my talent.  I also grew a love for speech and debating.  I joined the debate team and even became captain.  I would give speeches that was awarded with the other students rising out of their seats in applause and even read them some of my stories.  It was something to be expected.  I enjoyed it.  I was a better writer than speaker, because I couldn't give a speech without looking at the paper.  Anyways, my high school days grew to a close.  It was while I was watching Terminator 3 of all movies when it hit me.  I realized that I was gonna die.  I've always known I was gonna die, but the reality of it didn't hit me until watching this movie.  The thought scared the crap out of me.  It was a fear that gripped the pit of my stomach for months.  My mind dwelled on the idea.  I lost sleep at night because of it.  Death.  Dying.  Being nothing, no more, never to be known, remembered, to ever laugh, hear a good joke, feel the wind, look at the face of a beautiful woman, to ever think or breathe, to never again taste an amazing pizza or slab of ribs, nothing.  I would be no more!  That idea scared me.  I talked to a few of my friends about this.  One of them was a christian (not the same one I argued with).  He had just come out of the marines and I don't know what I would've done without him.  He said to me, "What if I told you heaven exists?"  I was the usual skeptic.  "How do you KNOW that heaven exists?  What is there to heaven?"  He told me about heaven and how great it was.  Yeah, heaven sounds great.  Streets paved in gold, the works.  God knows exactly what it would take to make heaven for you!  He told me about God and the bible.  I was still skeptic.  I didn't know anything.  He asked me if I would go to church one day with him.  I was like, "Uh, I don't know."  I was nervous, uncomfortable with the idea.  I decided to go, but was reluctant.  Man, when I went to church for that first time, I was like, "WOW!"  The pastor was amazing.  He seemed to methodically answer all of my questions, give me certain ideas that make sense.  One of them was about Israel.  He said that Israel is smack dab in the middle of the middle east.  There's only about 30 million jews that live in Israel, which is God-protected.  It says in the bible that Israel will no longer fall, that it will be a strong and independant nation until the end.  I didn't really understand that part, but he continued.  There are over 130 million muslims that surround Israel, all of them HATE jews, want the land of Israel back.  Talk about a mismatch.  30 to 130 million.  Who would win the war?  Why is Israel so much stronger than the muslims?  The Muslims could march into Israel and try to take the country right now if they wanted, but they're protected.  He was an awesome speaker and every week I went back to that church, happier and more satisfied than before.  I started to believe what he said.  There's so much that goes on in this world today, so much dealing with the supernatural, there's no way God couldn't exist.  That was my mentality.  But I wasn't going to take one man's word for it.  I decided to attack the evidence and keep an open mind that ANYTHING is possible and one fact or idea doesn't prove anything.  It's the bulk of the matter, the little details and ideas that make up the big stuff.  Scientists know for a fact that the oceans are eroding the land.  It's scientific fact, we've seen it happen.  They know the rate of erosion as well.  If the earth was 4.5 billion years old, all the continents would be flattened out, there wouldn't be hardly anything.  Scientists have been keeping records for four hundred years via eclipses and such and the records show that the sun is shrinking.  Over one hundred scientists can vouch for this and if you look at the evidence, find an actual site with reliable information, then you will see it too, but nobody with an open mind will look at it.  They're too one-sided, one-minded to see it.  It's no myth that the earth's magnetic field is losing strength.  It works in half-lifes.  That fact would be used by any scientist until one of them comes out and says that it proves the earth isn't as old as they predict because the magnetic field would be too strong for earth to support life.  Then all the scientists snub their noses in the air and say it can't be true then.  I go at this with an open mind and what I see is that creation happened.  I see that evolution has way too many flaws.  I see that anyone with a differing view point can't to see that Saucy is online.  They can't stand me because I keep standing up for what I believe in.  If you want to talk evolution, go ahead.  Nobody is stopping you, but there's no need to get angry, violence with your words and to put us down because we think differently.  I do admit that what you've done is shown me a side of christianity that I haven't seen before.  I didn't realize we were so violent, but you have there wherever you look.  There's been so much violence against us as well, but nobody wants to mention that piece of history.  Instead you refuse to say it ever happened.  There were violent times back then and people did crazy things in the name of God, but those events shouldn't speak for the rest of us.  The majority of christians are nice, sweet, willing to stop and help someone on the side of the road, welcome to the neighborhood here's a pie kind of people.  One or two bad apples shouldn't spoil the bunch.  We live normal lives, go to church on Sundays, say our prayers before bed and try to be good people.  It seems that only the sore thumbs seem to stick out that nobody EVER notices all the good deeds done by christians.  That's my story.  I'll continue to do my own research, go my own way.  I don't give a damn about what Stellar, Seraphina, Bathory or Chauncy have to say about me or my beliefs.  Just because they say it doesn't make it right or the truth.  Just because it's written on one site doesn't it true.  Just because a scientist backs a theory, doesn't make it true.  Just because Saucy rants it doesn't make it true.  There is a whole lot of evidence out there and even a false theory is likely to be supported by some of it.  That is the main reason it is so important to keep a debate open to dissecting points of view: one side shouldn't be allowed to just ignore evidence it finds inconvienient.  


#55    MoonBaby

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 07:03 PM

Good grief, I thought my thread had died. But it didn't!!! It's alive!!!!!!!!!

You know, I really can't get past how defensive and angry people can get when talking about their beliefs. And I'm really not directing this to anyone specifically. I've just noticed that happening quite a bit on this web site. It makes me much more happy and content with my beliefs in life. If someone doesn't agree with me, that's fine, no sweat off my balls thumbsup.gif .  Chauncy, I think that you should tell us all your beliefs and how you got there grin2.gif.

Good gods, I sound like a freakin' counselor. disgust.gif  

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#56    saucy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 07:15 PM

umm...balls?   blink.gif  


#57    Chauncy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 07:17 PM

QUOTE
I was a better writer than speaker, because I couldn't give a speech without looking at the paper.


Then why didn't you tap into the power that gave you the ability to do this?
QUOTE
I attempted to memorize the table of elements, all three hundred or so of them and their numbers and what they all are. I entered science fairs and whatever.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So let me see if I'm catching your drift here saucy. When you reached the point in life when we all happen upon the reality of death, a christian came and supplied you with your answers. Brought you to church, they provided you with more answers and then you use those same answers to say things like:
QUOTE
They know the rate of erosion as well. If the earth was 4.5 billion years old, all the continents would be flattened out, there wouldn't be hardly anything.


The fact that continents are not static, unchanging things. As well as eroding down, they are being raised up by plate collisions (part of plate tectonics) and the movement of magma beneath the Earth's crust. Even assuming the erosion rate is fixed (a very foolish assumption), it means nothing without considering elevation rates. So either you just don't know or you are a propagandist.....pick one because your claim of erosion is absolute nonsense....why would you keep saying it?.....to do so does nothing but remove any credibility from your stance and is a propagation of lies!!

Lies breed ignorance,ignorance breeds fear, fear is what you christians captilize on to fill congregations. The lies and the propagation of ignorance is where my and many others anger comes from!

QUOTE
Man, when I went to church for that first time, I was like, "WOW!" The pastor was amazing. He seemed to methodically answer all of my questions, give me certain ideas that make sense


Was this the same pastor that told you this?:
QUOTE
Scientists have been keeping records for four hundred years via eclipses and such and the records show that the sun is shrinking. Over one hundred scientists can vouch for this and if you look at the evidence, find an actual site with reliable information, then you will see it too, but nobody with an open mind will look at it. They're too one-sided, one-minded to see it. It's no myth that the earth's magnetic field is losing strength. It works in half-lifes.

Because if he is the same person you should really sit back and question his motivation becasue he is in fact lieing to you and now you are repeating his lies!

Just cause the sun is shrinking doesn't mean it always has, or that the rate of shrinkage has been always constant....to use this as a geralization is credulous, to be educated and a leader and still use this as evidence is CRIMINAL!!!!

Saucy for absolute seriousness here, the magnetic field of the Earth is not losing strength!!  It flucuates!! It has not been decaying at a steady rate at all. Thomas G. Barnes, who originated those figures, made his conclusions over 60 years ago, without enough data to make such an assertion.We now know, not only from current data, but from evidence left behind in rock layers (in the form of the alignment of magnetic minerals), that the Earth's magnetic field doesn't just get weaker and stronger over time, but the polarity of the Earth's magnetic field actually reverses itself periodically. Barnes' data is now outdated, and the argument is and has been for a long time nonsense.

Saucy why then are you still telling these lies?

Or now that you know, are you still going to tell them?





As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
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#58    MoonBaby

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE
umm...balls? 


Yeah, they just appeared overnight. Freaked my husband out, but he's better now. laugh.gif
saucy-I'm writing you so don't run away.

Edited by MoonBaby, 20 May 2004 - 07:23 PM.

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#59    saucy

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 07:34 PM

No, my pastor isn't telling me these things.  They are things I picked up during my research.  No, my christian friend opened up another possibility, an actual afterlife instead of disappearing into nothing.  As long as waves have been beating on all the coasts of the world, there has been erosion and it's safe to assume that it's at the same rate because the wave patterns don't change as far as I know.  They say about an inch erodes off the coast every year.  Multiply that by 4.5 billion years and...oh wait.  It doesn't mean nothing beacuse Chauncy says it doesn't.  Scientists have written records that PROVE, yes, PROVE that the sun has been shrinking for at least 400 years. It doesn't take a genious to know that if the sun has been shrinking, then it used to be larger than it is and if the sun was even slightly larger, especially a planet with an atmosphere, like, um, Venus!  then it would've been too damn hot for surviving life.  Stop preaching the Star Wars philosephy!  Why do you call it lies?  Because it doesn't agree with your knowledge?  Yeah, thought so.  Anything that goes against anything you "know" as the truth, then it must be wrong.  Nobody has been able to show a single shred of evidence that the earth is billions of years old.  Dating?  Yeah right.  I've debunked the dating method.  I didn't become a christian because my friend told me it was good or anything like that.  I've seen, felt, and heard things that can't be explained by any normal means.  That's why I believe in God.  Not even the best science in the world has been ever to explain spirituality.  People ask me why I believe in a God I cannot see.  Why do evolutionists believe in a process they've never seen work or proof of?  


#60    Chauncy

Chauncy

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  • "Sanity may be madness but the maddest of all is to see life as it is and not as it should be." (from) Don Quixote

Posted 20 May 2004 - 07:42 PM

QUOTE
Multiply that by 4.5 billion years and...oh wait. It doesn't mean nothing beacuse Chauncy says it doesn't


No it doesn't mean anything, because you are missing facts or purposely overlooking them.

The continents rise and fall they are not stationary, when they raise the erosion rate is useless!

Are you saying this isn't true?

Our continents have always been moving, Continental Drift tells us this. 4.5 billion years ago the continents were one land mass called Pangea, thats why when looking at a map they appear to fit together like a jig-saw!

Are you saying this isn't true?

As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer. (1904-1967)
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