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The Mysterious Egyptian Tri-Lobed Disc


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#31    Oniomancer

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:07 AM

kmt_sesh on Mar 6 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

As for the crafting of such an object, once the artisan got down to the most delicate parts, he would've abandoned his chisels and turned to small, formed pieces of sandstone--much like coarse sandpaper. This is how many objects of masonry were smoothed, and quite a few examples of the sandstone "smoothers" are known.

If it's comparable to slate in hardness, even a flint knife would've worked for the fine cuts before they got down to the smoothing stage.

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#32    Enigmatic Ghost

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:19 AM

My two Cents upon this Object is of one of two uses, a Tall wooden Dow was places within the center, the Disk was lowered into ether a Grain paste or a Mud (For cementing Bricks or stones together) to ether of which was mixed by rotation as in a very huge mixer…    

Pavot

Edited by Pavot, 07 March 2009 - 05:21 AM.


#33    cladking

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:23 AM

legionromanes on Mar 6 2009, 11:06 PM, said:

dude, there are other similar shaped bowls which are even more ornamental...



Without seeing them I have no opinion whatsoever on them.  

But if any can be used as oil lamps, canning jars, cooking pots, or hanging oil
lamps then maybe they aren't just "ornamental bowls".  Maybe they could be
used for other things because they were made for other things.  

Does it not seem at all strange to you that this has a unique shape that would
be ideally suited to a very specific job?  

Rather than condemn me for posting facts and logic, why not present evidence
for your own position?  I fully understand that there are many people, including
you, who know a great deal more about these subjects than I do.  That doesn't
mean you're right.  It just means you have a lot of company and there's a lot of
expertise.  

Show me this thing wouldn't float.  Show me it wouldn't work exactly as I say.

Tell ne what the ring is depicted next to the "ornamental bowl" in the link.  wink2.gif


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#34    cladking

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:26 AM

Pavot on Mar 6 2009, 11:19 PM, said:

My two Cents upon this Object is of one of two uses, a Tall wooden Dow was places within the center, the Disk was lowered into ether a Grain paste or a Mud (For cementing Bricks or stones together) to ether of which was mixed by rotation as in a very huge mixer…



This is a compelling idea.  I toyed with the idea that it was
for time keeping for a couple minutes after this.  

The problem is that it's much too fragile for most such prac-
tical purposes.

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#35    Oniomancer

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:39 AM

cladking on Mar 6 2009, 11:57 PM, said:

Calling it an ornamental bowl doesn't make it an ornamental bowl.  Form follows
function. Since it's about useless as a bowl then it must be ornamental, eh?

The central ring is at least as high as the rim so actually it functions quite well as a bowl.

Quote

Steel is even heaveier than stone and they make some pretty big ships out of it.

And even out of cement but to a point. Only as long as the load weight doesn't exceed it's bouyancy. I assume you're suggesting the diving bell effect when you talk about flipping it over.

Quote

Note the grooves arond the center stem.  This is predicted by my theory since
the band needs something to seat to.  It's just another mystery on an ornamental
bowl.

Much ado about nothing. It's unusual shape is suggestive enough to confuse it's purpose, so it becomes anything and everything.

Edited by Oniomancer, 07 March 2009 - 05:40 AM.

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#36    legionromanes

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:47 AM

cladking on Mar 7 2009, 05:23 AM, said:

Show me this thing wouldn't float.  Show me it wouldn't work exactly as I say.

now youre just being obtuse, show me anything made of stone from ancient egypt thats designed to float
or go ask a five year old
I mean come on your attempt to recover your position when proved wrong is highly amusing and speaks a lot for your hypothesis, just not in a good way
thumbsup.gif



#37    cladking

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:55 AM

Oniomancer on Mar 6 2009, 11:39 PM, said:

The central ring is at least as high as the rim so actually it functions quite well as a bowl.


It's kind of hard to get your spoon in.  

Quote

And even out of cement but to a point. Only as long as the load weight doesn't exceed it's bouyancy. I assume you're suggesting the diving bell effect when you talk about flipping it over.


Yes.  

I confess I'm having a few second thoughts though.  The thing
has to rock to be resupplied with fuel.  Of course this could be
intentional design.  If it rocks too much it can sink and could
break.    

Quote

Much ado about nothing. It's unusual shape is suggestive enough to confuse it's purpose, so it becomes anything and everything.


It should be easy enough to build one and test it.  I quit think-
ing about it when I thought I had it but there really aren't many
things it might be.  




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#38    cladking

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 06:18 AM




Quote

I confess I'm having a few second thoughts though.  The thing
has to rock to be resupplied with fuel.  Of course this could be
intentional design.  If it rocks too much it can sink and could
break.



On further reflection this might have been one of the specific uses for this; you
could tell from many miles away whether the geyser was flowing or not at night.  
The thing would simply burn down and go out if it weren't rocking.  You can see
a fire at night from a much greater distance than spraying water.  

There was a similar device on the M[].t-wr.t-cow apparently.  These were bright-
ly colored boards "feathers" which would wave when the water flowed.

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#39    cladking

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 06:28 AM

legionromanes on Mar 6 2009, 11:47 PM, said:

now youre just being obtuse, show me anything made of stone from ancient egypt thats designed to float
or go ask a five year old
I mean come on your attempt to recover your position when proved wrong is highly amusing and speaks a lot for your hypothesis, just not in a good way
thumbsup.gif


I know you can do better than this.  Rather than proving our navy
sits on the ocean floor, why not at least point out what makes some
believe it's an ornamental bowl, or much better, why it can't be an
oil lamp.  

There's an even simpler way to check than making a copy using
computer imaging.

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#40    Oniomancer

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 06:31 AM

cladking on Mar 7 2009, 12:55 AM, said:

It's kind of hard to get your spoon in.

But not so hard to pour libations from. Couldn't help but notice the trilateral design somewhat makes it resemble a loving cup.

Quote

Yes.  

I confess I'm having a few second thoughts though.  The thing
has to rock to be resupplied with fuel.  Of course this could be
intentional design.  If it rocks too much it can sink and could
break.

Hense that idea probably works best curved side down with just a simple wick.


Quote

It should be easy enough to build one and test it.  I quit think-
ing about it when I thought I had it but there really aren't many
things it might be.

That much is true. Process of elimination by the limitations of the material take care of most of the more outlandish suggestions

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#41    cladking

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 06:44 AM

cladking on Mar 7 2009, 12:18 AM, said:

On further reflection this might have been one of the specific uses for this; you
could tell from many miles away whether the geyser was flowing or not at night.  
The thing would simply burn down and go out if it weren't rocking.  You can see
a fire at night from a much greater distance than spraying water.


You can almost picture the priests dejectedly pulling the lamp(s) from
the calm water and packing up to go home and write a new utterance
since there will be no ascensions today.  

Utterance 233.

237a. To say: The serpent which came forth from the earth is fallen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen.
237b. Fall; glide away.

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#42    kmt_sesh

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 06:56 AM

Ahhh, I think I know what this object was for. It was an ancient Egyptian fondue pot. tongue.gif

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I've spent awhile looking over that web page to which legionromanes linked us earlier, and it provides some useful information. I am now leaning toward this object being some sort of ritual offering tray. Here's another look at it.

I can't tell if the center tube is hollow or plugged at the bottom, but it would be ideal for the issuance of incense. Food items could've been piled in the shallow bowl portion. I still can't quite figure out the purpose of the three lobes, but the handles behind them would've been perfect for carrying a nice pile of offerings. One or two priests may have done this.

Being that the owner of Tomb 3111 was buried at Saqqara, he most likely lived and died in that area. The tomb owner, probably named Sabu, was a high-ranking provincial official. He may have been tied in with the temple of Ptah in the administrative capital of Mennefer (Memphis), where such an offering bowl would've been used.

A more mundane explanation is also possible. As I mentioned earlier, the object reminds me of some large stone platters I have seen, although considerably fancier. It's possible this was used for formal banquets, the sort of thing ancient Egyptians enjoyed, in particular the elite individuals. Incense and heaps of food were common at banquets just as they were in temples.

I still have a hard time picturing how this thing would float. I don't think it would, at least for more than a moment or two. I don't see how it would displace water without toppling over and sinking. Even by Dynasty 1 the Egyptians were well versed in constructing all manner of vessels for flotation, and stone was not one of the materials they used, as legionromanes said earlier. I really do think the thing is what it appears to be: some kind of elaborate bowl or platter.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...well, you know.

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#43    kmt_sesh

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 06:58 AM

cladking on Mar 7 2009, 12:44 AM, said:

You can almost picture the priests dejectedly pulling the lamp(s) from
the calm water and packing up to go home and write a new utterance
since there will be no ascensions today.  

Utterance 233.

237a. To say: The serpent which came forth from the earth is fallen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen.
237b. Fall; glide away.


If you're still looking for floating oil lamps, I concede the possibility. However, this stone artifact would not be an example. The lamp set upon a pool or pond would've been fixed to a platform of wood or reeds coated with pitch.

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#44    Oniomancer

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 07:03 AM

kmt_sesh on Mar 7 2009, 01:56 AM, said:

Ahhh, I think I know what this object was for. It was an ancient Egyptian fondue pot. tongue.gif

Sorry, couldn't help myself.


Someone elsewhere already said it looked like a lazy susan chip server.  grin2.gif

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#45    cladking

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 07:09 AM

kmt_sesh on Mar 7 2009, 12:56 AM, said:

Ahhh, I think I know what this object was for. It was an ancient Egyptian fondue pot. tongue.gif

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I've spent awhile looking over that web page to which legionromanes linked us earlier, and it provides some useful information. I am now leaning toward this object being some sort of ritual offering tray. Here's another look at it.

I can't tell if the center tube is hollow or plugged at the bottom, but it would be ideal for the issuance of incense. Food items could've been piled in the shallow bowl portion. I still can't quite figure out the purpose of the three lobes, but the handles behind them would've been perfect for carrying a nice pile of offerings. One or two priests may have done this.

Being that the owner of Tomb 3111 was buried at Saqqara, he most likely lived and died in that area. The tomb owner, probably named Sabu, was a high-ranking provincial official. He may have been tied in with the temple of Ptah in the administrative capital of Mennefer (Memphis), where such an offering bowl would've been used.

A more mundane explanation is also possible. As I mentioned earlier, the object reminds me of some large stone platters I have seen, although considerably fancier. It's possible this was used for formal banquets, the sort of thing ancient Egyptians enjoyed, in particular the elite individuals. Incense and heaps of food were common at banquets just as they were in temples.

I still have a hard time picturing how this thing would float. I don't think it would, at least for more than a moment or two. I don't see how it would displace water without toppling over and sinking. Even by Dynasty 1 the Egyptians were well versed in constructing all manner of vessels for flotation, and stone was not one of the materials they used, as legionromanes said earlier. I really do think the thing is what it appears to be: some kind of elaborate bowl or platter.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...well, you know.


I like the fondue idea.  

The center hole has to be open or it's not a floating oil lamp.  Look at
the horizontal view near the bottom (figure 7).  The air is in the center
and well above the center of gravity so it should be pretty stable.  

The grooves around the center probably proves this duck only quacks
when the water is rough.  At least this appears to be one mighty odd
duck.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.




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