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The Mysterious Egyptian Tri-Lobed Disc

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#556    cladking



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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:52 PM

I just spent 20 minutes typing out a long post and the auto-save blew it away.

Later maybe.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#557    cladking



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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:28 AM

View PostEldorado, on 14 October 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I came looking for this thread hoping some Sherlock had solved the case. It's still mighty interesting, in my opinion. And much better than year after year of the same chatter about ramps and sledges etc.

I've found dozens of new things that apply to the "fire-pan" since I last posted but most of them
are relatively minor and didn't justify bringing the thread back from the dead. In aggregate they
are great deal more important. The biggest breakthrough was pretty recently in coming to un-
derstand the "two jackals"; Anubis who oversaw construction and Wepwawet who "opens the way".
Our biggest obstacle to understanding the ancients is that we assume they thought and spoke as
we do. We are constantly projecting our own beliefs and viewpoints on the builders and when their
wods and actions don't fit we make excuses for them rather than reexamine why we believe what
we do. I often say that there are no ancient Egyptians being born in Kansas and never were. If
an ancient doesn't seem like your average Topekan it's probably because he's not.

The ancients believed vision was an active thing.  one didn't simply look toward something and gat-
her it in but he emitted a sort of beam and through "heka" (the ability to make scientific observation)
was able to know what was there.  The eye emitted this beam and the beam was overseen by the
God  "Wepwawet" (the opener of the way).  Atum as a column of water stood in the Eye of Horus
and Wepwawet assured that Horus, the God of the Land of Rainbows could "see".

538a. N. is the exalted, who is in the forefront; who lifts up the brow;
538b. the star before which the gods bow, before which the Two Enneads tremble.
538c. The face of N. is the face which sees his elevation.
538d. N. is a nose which breathes.

The ointment is applied on the "brow" of the Upper Eye of Horus and is a mixture of grease, natron,
and musilagenous myhrr that is used to degas the water and impart an odor so the men know it's
safe.  The head is in the upper eye and is crowned with falling water which is carried away by the
shm-sceptres. The face in the upper eye can see the elevation of the king (the pyramid) because
the fire-pan burns and it exhales CO2.

301a. To say: N. has inherited Geb; N. has inherited Geb.
301b. He has inherited Atum; he is upon the throne of Horus, the eldest.
301c. His eye is his might; his protection consists in that which was done to him.
302a. The heat of the flaming breath of his uraeus-serpent
302b. is like that of the Rnn-wt.t-serpent on his forehead.

The dead king is transmorgrified into Atum/ Osiris when he is freed from his bandages in
the funeral pyra on the east side of the pyramid top.  His (Horus') eye provides the power
which builds the king (pyramid).  The original eye in the ben ben on the primeval mound
(Iusaas) is the wadjet eye which symbolically protects the living king and the "rennenutet"
is a serpent (fluid flow) that transports CO2 from the upper eye to the fire-pan to keep it

1794a. To say: Osiris N., I have brought thee the eye of Horus which was in Tȝi.t,
1794b. this Rn(n)-wt.t, of whom the gods have fear.
1794c. The gods fear thee as they have fear of Horus.
1795a. Osiris N., Horus has put his eye in thy forehead, in its name of "Great-in-charms," (and so),

This last one will be tougher because there are more concepts;

453a. Put it on thy brow, in this, its name of "choice oil",
453b. that thou mayest rejoice in it, in this its name of "willow-tree",
454a. that thou mayest sparkle thereby among the gods, in this its name of "that which sparkles", (or, "tḥnw.t-oil"),
454b. that thou mayest be pleased with it in this its name of "oil of pleasure", (or, "ḥkn.w-oil").
454c. (Then) will the Rnn-wt.t-serpent love thee.

455a. Stand there, great reed-float, like Wp-wȝ.wt,
455b. filled with thy splendour, come forth from the horizon,
455c. after thou hast taken possession of the white crown in the water-springs, great and mighty, which are in the south of Libya,

The willow tree oil is burned by the fire-pan when it is refueled in turbulent water and it sparkles
by night and by day (in the sunlight).

Wepwawet (Wp-wȝ.wt,) not only opens the way for Horus to see but presides over the equipment
which assures the water is "stable and enduring" in the upper eye.  The counterweight (reed float)
takes possession of the water in the crown of the water springs.

There's more but this post in plenty long enough.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#558    cladking



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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:10 PM

Here's a bit more justification for my interpretation of "Renennutet" or "the renennutet" as
an opening which channels CO2 from the Upper Eye of Horus to the fire-pan to keep it afloat.

Egyptology has numerous insights into this and are often correct in a left handed sort of way;

"The awe or fear generated by the Eye of Horus is the power of the offering, for the Eye of Horus represents offerings to the Gods in general, the efficacy of which is unfailingly respected (‘feared’) by them."

"Renenutet is naturally associated with the uraeus because she too is depicted as a cobra, but she is not simply – and hence redundantly – identical to the uraeus here; rather, she combines the role of the uraeus, which is pre-eminently the defender of Re, with the defense of Horus, through an association with the Eye of Horus which was wounded and healed."


Utterance #627 is a mess and highly fragmented.  Hundreds of words are missing.  Since
meaning in Egyptian was conveyed by context it forces one to make inferences about mean-
ing based on what does survive.  It should be possible to figure out what's missing in time
but I still don't understand it well enough to know what's still there.

Here's a major fragment (the subject appears to be the king as the water).

1777d. -------------------
1778a. N: is the great falcon, who is upon the battlements (or, cornice blocks) of the house of "him of the hidden name,"
1778b. who will seize the (possessions, or) provisions of Atum for him who separates the sky from the earth and Nun
1778c. -- this N. in all (?) ---- shines.
1779a. His two lips are like those of the male of the divine falcons;
1779b. his neck is like that of the mistress of the nbi-flame;

This would be easily misunderstood because "falcon" usually refers to Horus but in this case
it's "he who is on the battlement" or in our terms "he who is on the first step" (81' 3").  This, of
course is in reference to Khenti-irty or "he who snatches things from the air" (with one or two
eyes).  I believe "hidden name" simply refers to the fact that at the stage of construction of the
pyramid they don't yet know which king will ascend upon it.

The next line too, is very confusing to traditional interpretation because Shi most probably is not
the referent as he appears to be.  It's more likely that "for him who separates the sky from the earth
and Nun" is merely restating Atum's original role.  I suppose it's a minor point though.  The next lines
are pretty opaque and all we really know is something shines. Remember though that meaning is in
context so there isn't necessarily an act of shining but a condition of shining applies in some way.

It's the last line I find so fascinating.  The renennutet is essentially just a tunnel or a "neck".  All the
Gods had all the human and/ or animal features but this specific "goddess" was primarily a neck.  It
appears that "nbi" flame translates as "swimming flame" which is an highly appropriate name for a
lamp which must be in turbulent water to even stay burning.

It appears this "tri-lobed disc" was known generically as one of the "mks-sceptres" and was kept a-
float by the "mistress of the swimming flame".  It was called the "fire-pan" which Sethe translated as
a sort of signalling device.  It became the basis of the word "God" in most western languages.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#559    cladking



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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:41 PM

I believe "Sekhmet" was the "natural phenomenon of power derived from water at altitude".  Here "seven arrows" were the vector equations that determined loads in the "boats of balance".  The oar shaped devices that diverted water from the crown at the "upper eye of horus" were called "Sekhmet's scepters" or "shm-sceptres".  Sekhmet appears to have usurped Hathor's role as "(feminine) phenomenon of power of water" when the mehet weret cow was invented to catch the water at higher altitudes.

As such Sekhmet is very closely associated with the fire-pan.  Among her myriad names are;

Flaming One
Awakener (remember those with ready hands stand to make an offering to the dead king)
Opener of Ways
Lady Of Transformations
Inspirer of Men
Ruler Of The Desert
Ruler Of Lions (remember shu anf tefnuts are the lions of upward and downward)
Sparkling One (remember the floating willow tree oil)
Lady Of The Magic Lamp
Lady Of The Waters Of Life
Ruler Of The Chamber Of Flames
Sekhmet, Who Rouseth The People
Shining Of Countenance
The One Who Holds Back Darkness
The Beautiful Light
Lady Of All Powers

...(from Litany)
1.  O Sekhmet, Eye of Ra, Great of Flame,
2.  O Sekhmet, You who illumine the Double Land with your flame and give the faculty of sight to all!
6.  O Sekhmet, the one who makes every eye to see,
7.  O Sekhmet, when you rise, the Light appears; when you go back, darkness comes!
9.  O Sekhmet, Ardent Flame, who lights a fire, when she took the torch!
Who causes her flame to rise.
13. O Sekhmet, who enters in the opening of the mountains, she from which the flame fills for him
21. O Sekhmet, the one who opens the mountains,
25. O Sekhmet, the one who shines, on account of whom one jubilates when it is ordered that her flame advances! When you shine, one jubilates because of you; (when) you are kind, the flame is pacified.
26. O Sekhmet, at whose setting the darkness appears, in such a way that if
someone nods his head (lit., makes a nod of the head) to his neighbor, they
will not see one another!
37. O Sekhmet, the one who loves Maat (remember ma'at is the phenomenon of balance)

I find this all very highly telling.


I recommend this site and believe everything fits and not only the small segments I've quoted.  It fits solely because this tri lobed disc was a floating lantern on the pyramid top during construction.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#560    cladking



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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:04 PM

http://www.thenazare..., Nazarenes.htm

People might want to take a look at this as well as the previous post.  (remember the lamp appears to be the very origin of the word "God")

Edited by cladking, 20 June 2013 - 09:05 PM.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#561    cladking



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Posted 19 August 2013 - 01:17 AM

I've changed my interpretation of utterance #213 substantially since
I earlier said that it is the basis of my belief that the scientific
name for the "magic lantern" was "mks-sceptre".  

Utterance 213.

134a. O N., thou didst not depart dead; thou didst depart living,
134b. (so) thou sittest upon the throne of Osiris, thy ‘bȝ-sceptre in thy hand, thou commandest the living;
134c. (thy) mkś-sceptre and thy nḥb.t-sceptre in thy hand, commanding those of secret places.
135a. Thine arm is like that of Atum; thy shoulders are like those of Atum; thy body is like that of Atum; thy back is like that of Atum;
135b. thy seat is like that of Atum; thy legs are like those of Atum; thy face is like that of Anubis.
135c. Thou travelest over the regions of Horus; thou travelest over the regions of Set (or, the regions of Horus serve thee; the regions of Set serve thee).

I have great confidence the the nbht-sceptre is flow indicator for
the water on the pyramid top.  This ppears in several places and is
well defined.  Unfortunately the "mks-sceptre" appears only here and
other usages are the colloquial term; "fire-pan". This usage seems
very specific and shows that the fire-pan indicated flow by night and
the nbht-sceptre indicated flow during the day. Somehow I didn't take
into account that very explicit "commanding those of secret places".
The "ba-sceptre" is the weir that commands men and those in "secret
places" are the "blessed dead"; the djed operator and the shm-sceptre
operator.  The implication is that the fire-pan is not merely an on/ off
indicator but must show the accuracy of the djed's aim.  This implies
that it floated closer to the "face of Anubis" and on a very thin coat
of oil so that it would burn down quickly if not rocked.  It might have
even allowed the shm-operator to make some adjustments from a distance
so he was out  of danger.

Elsewhere there is indication that a rainbow can exist in the upper eye
cast by the fire-pan. I have no reason to doubt this is true.  

This ritual simply concerns the transformation of the king into "atum".
It is from the perspective of the upper eye which is rather unusual since
it is a secret place.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#562    cladking



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Posted 31 August 2013 - 01:55 AM

I'm starting to get caught up a little bit but still haven't had a chance
to collate all my new understanding from the Coffin Texts into the Pyramid
Texts.  Since I have a little time now I'll get some of the new stuff from
the CT added here.  This is a tiny sampling of everything.  

#283 ...there is a flame for N when he goes up from the horizon.

#294 The shape of the swallow is given to me by the flaming one, mistress of
the isles who ascends in the flame which is on the battlements of the sky.

The steps of the pyramid are called "battlements" and are considered "islands"
because they are encircled by the winding watercourse.  The shape of the swal-
low can be determined because nbi (the mistress of the flame) is on the job.

#1089 I will prepare your path in the sky, and its waters will come down so
that you may navigate your bark in it by night.  

The "path of N" is what allows N to keep the fire-pan bright.  

#1094 I have swamped the fire, I have lightened the darkness among those who come
with offerings when ma'at is brought to him who crosses the waterway.

It is N who lightens the darkness by "swamping" the fire. It is "balance" which is
achieved to build the pyramid.

...continued next post...

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#563    cladking



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Posted 31 August 2013 - 02:20 AM

...continued from last post.  

Now it gets a little more complicated and much more interesting.  

You might remember from other threads that the "mehet weret cow" which caught
the water on the first battlement sat on a mat. This "mat" is the water collec-
tion device that sits under the pyramid.  The "basalt pad" is directly related
to this mat though a few simple experiments will be required to learn exactly how.
Remember also that the pyramid is the "boat of re" which sails north to the im-
perishable stars.  

#1033 Prepare a path for me into the bow of his bark; brightness is in his disk
and power is in his shape.  ... SPELL FOR PASSING OVER THE CIRCLE OF FIRE OF THE

Then consider...

#61 You sit on the mat of turquoise at the bow of the bark of Re.

The bow is on the northside where the fire-pan is.  

"Turquoise" bothered me for a few days because there's nothing green in the water.
But after some research I discovered a distinct possibility that the highly soluble
copper sulfate in the water would combine with the sodium bicarbonate and sodium de-
cahydrate to precipitate barely soluble copper hydroxide.  This would be expected to
color the whole ssmt-apron but especially the "mat" where the water sprays from since
concentrations of natron are highest in this area.

It appears that the fire-pan was actually the "mks-sceptre" and part of it was the "hts-
sceptre" (probably the wick).  It was kept afloat by rennenutet who channeled the risings
begetter from the upper eye of horus so long as osiris stood in it.  It was the ka of sekhmet
and nbi was its ba.  Before the invention of khenti-n-irty it was the ka of hathor.  

The "fame" of the fire-pan simply increased after it became obsolete.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#564    cladking



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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:20 PM

The ancient language really isn't that tough to understand.  It would
be far easier to grasp if it were translated to agree with the actual
meaning but this is comprehensible to almost anyone.  Let's try a little
more complicated utterance from #75:

"...there is seen my crown which belongs to him who is in his cavern, and
it is he who is in his cavern who raises aloft my crown for me..."

The water and CO2 comes from the cavern to create the crown (of water).

Stay with me here.

"I am he who pierced the height of heaven, I am he who for himself united his
myriad of souls who were placed among his associates."

This is from the perspective of shu (upward).  Shu has united Geb, Nut, Isis,
etc etc to serve his own purposes; holding up the sky (with the pyramid).  

"I have extinguished the fire,"

When shu lifts the water the "risings begetter" (feminine) is "extinguished".  

"I have calmed the soul of her who burns"

The "risings begetter" no longer has the fury to drive the water.  

"I have quietened her (she) who is in the midst of her rage"

"I am he who the flame of fire burns, but its fiery blast is not against me; (I
am he) who makes the soul of her who burns to travel, and who makes the pain of
the flame of her who is in the midst of her rage..."

You can see the subject changed suddenly or appears to.  Thisa is still shu but
he'sno longer talking about the "quieted one" because she's been put to bed as it
were.  But shu is now exposed to a new flame from the fire-pan and by making her
"travel" he keeps her burning (in his name of tefnut*). "Pain" is a little enig-
matic but the fire-pan is in rage while it burns.  I'd guess "pain" is related to
the tendency for the fire-pan to burn down very quickly if it's not rocked enough.  
It was either in rage while it burned or dying with little in between.  

*the Egyptians had no difficulty with the concept of causation.  It was "upward"
that caused the water to fall from its apex as much as it was "downward": one can't
exist without the other.

People just need to realize that it's all the ancient texts that can be interpreted
this way.  Almost every line fits this pattern while Egyptology assigns different
definitions to every word in every context.  The Coffin Texts quoted in the last few
posts are from a later era but fit in perfectly with the PT.  It appears that the CT
are a derivative of thge PT but they had a more important source as well; The Book of
Thot.  This book was a record of their science but most of what appears in the CT ap-
pies primarily to the great pyramid building rather than being a nice sampling of mat-
erial from the book. There are other parts as well.  Some of the CT are garbled and
some are in modern language and all is translated improperly to reflect later thinking
but it still supports the apparent fact that the tri-lobed disc is a floating lantern.

The CT also speaks frequently about the caves which highlights just how important these
were.  It continues from the PT with defining the Eye of Horus as the opening through
which water shoots and even uses these very words in one instance.  Sekhmet (the water
on top) was "she of the magic lantern" who rouseth the people. Those with ready hands
stood to make an offerring to the (pyramid) when it burned on the battlement as seen in
the gravimetric scans.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#565    brlesq1


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Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:42 AM

Looks like some kind of lamp to me.

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#566    Toon Pimpinz

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:51 AM

looks like the egyptians really did have the wheel. we must rewrite the history books!



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#567    cladking



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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:52 AM

323a. The abomination of N. is to walk in darkness,
323b. lest he see those who are upside down.
323c. N. will come forth in this day; he will bring truth with him.
323d. N. will not be delivered up to your flame, O gods.

This passage has been an enigma to me since the very first time I read it.  I believe, thanks to
the Coffin Texts, that I finally understand it.  It is confusing on several levels.

The Coffin Texts make it reasonably clear that the concept of "walking upside down" means to
confound reality itself since no animal can walk upside down.  The dead king walks, he strides,
81' 3" at a time but they would never try to work at night since this would be like attempting to
"walk upside down".  Instead the king will manifest as Seker in the counterweight in the day.  He
will come in the day bringing balance with him.  But at night the water is being saved in the Lake
of the Jackal all the time the fire-pan burns.  He will not be delivered up to the flame, he will not
be consumed by the flame merely, stored in the lake at the pyramid top.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#568    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 05:34 AM

cladking I failed to understand what you kindly suggest with posts from this page. Could you be clearer so that even I could understand you?

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#569    cladking



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Posted 21 September 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostBig Bad Voodoo, on 21 September 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

cladking I failed to understand what you kindly suggest with posts from this page. Could you be clearer so that even I could understand you?

I believe there is extensive evidence that the builders of the great pyramids used water filled
counterweights to lift the stones one step at a time up these five step pyramids.  To accomplish
this they had to catch the water from geysers high on their trajectory with a device called the
mehet weret which was a stone structure with a hole in the bottom.

The "fire-pan" is a colloquial term for a device that sat on the mehet weret on the water that
had been sprayed up and this water had a thin film of willow tree oil floating on it.  The wick on
the top of the fire-pan sucked up this oil as it burned and the violence of the falling water rocked
the device so that it was continually being refueled only when it was rocked; only during eruptions.
This device whose scientific name was the "mks-sceptre" alerted the pyramid builders to report
to work since they only worked on days that there was water available, or as they said, "on a good
day of running upon the mountain".  These are colloquial terms for pyramid building.

The mks-sceptre became very important to the thought and people of Egypt even after the water
stopped and the language changed.  It was important to the first religions in 2000 BC which were
invented to preserve ancient knowledge.  This is why this concept morphed into the word for "God"
in later religions.

Most of this thread concerns the fire-pan as evidenced in the PT or after the change in language
but the last several posts are either from the Coffin Texts or implications of things that I've been
able to deduce from the Coffin Texts.  I had no clue of what "upside down" meant until the Coffin
Texts and this seems to make the meaning of this quite clear;

323a. The abomination of N. is to walk in darkness,
323b. lest he see those who are upside down.
323c. N. will come forth in this day; he will bring truth with him.
323d. N. will not be delivered up to your flame, O gods.

As such it is also related to the fire-pan since it is the source of the flame to which the king
will not be delivered.  Untill knowing the meaning of this it was possible they were speaking of
another flame such as his bier at the iskn, lightning, or some unknown flame.  Now that the
meaning of the lines are known the source of the flame is also known.

The ancient language was different than modern language. It was like computer code and
you can't understand any of something until you understand it all.  In modern language each
word gains its definition from context but in computer language context is the meaning.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#570    kmt_sesh



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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:37 PM

I would be more comfortable if you would carry your topic to the "more water at Giza" thread, cladking. This particular thread is about a tripartitie stone pan found in a Dynasty 1 tomb. Not only is it not about your personal geyser theme, it's also about an object produced 500 years before the first pyramid was built.

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