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The Mysterious Egyptian Tri-Lobed Disc


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#571    cladking

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:50 AM

No post in this thread is about my theory.  It is about the nature of the tri-lobed disc
and the evidence that exists to tie this device to being a floating oil-lamp.  I was spec-
ifically asked how this evidence could fit a parttern and so elaborated.  It seems better
to delete the elaboration than the elaborator if this is a problem.  The result could be
identical depending on the situation.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#572    kmt_sesh

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:00 AM

View Postcladking, on 13 October 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

No post in this thread is about my theory.  It is about the nature of the tri-lobed disc
and the evidence that exists to tie this device to being a floating oil-lamp.  I was spec-
ifically asked how this evidence could fit a parttern and so elaborated.  It seems better
to delete the elaboration than the elaborator if this is a problem.  The result could be
identical depending on the situation.

Perhaps I was rash in my pronouncement. I saw the plethora of posts about the Pyramid Texts and reacted on instinct.

Just the same, bear in mind this dish or vessel was recovered from a Dynasty 1 tomb, meaning it's on the order of 5,000 years old. No evidence for the Pyramid Texts would be recorded in a nonperishable manner for another 700 years. Therefore, it makes absolutely no sense to plumb the Texts when no one can make realistic comparisons between them and the dish.

Seems to me it would make more sense to adhere to what extant evidence can tell us.

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#573    Scott Creighton

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:23 AM

A thought occurred to me as to a possible use for this artifact.

An ancient Weights and Measures device?

Dividing something - for example, a sack of grain - into two equal parts is simple enough - you use a simple balance scale.

Dividing a sack of grain into THREE equal parts is a bit more tricky. This metasiltstone bowl might represent a means by which such could have been achieved.

Imagine the artifact suspended at its centre with a cord. Now imagine the bowl filled with water. The water will create a level (like a spirit level). Mark the water level on the inside of the bowl. Finally, imagine three cloth sacks with a strap placed inside and looped around each of the three lobes, being suspended under the bowl. Even if the three sacks are all of different weights these can be equalised by adding small pebbles to the appropriate sack until the water in the bowl is again level. Now fill each of the three sacks with the grain, ensuring the water in the bowl remains level. When you have finished, each of the three sacks will have the same quantity (weight) of grain.

Such a weights and measure scale would be 50% more efficient than a simple balance scale. Just a thought.

SC

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#574    Windowpane

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:40 AM

View Postbrlesq1, on 01 September 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Looks like some kind of lamp to me.

That's also one of the suggestions here.


#575    cladking

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 03:04 PM

View PostScott Creighton, on 13 October 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

A thought occurred to me as to a possible use for this artifact.

An ancient Weights and Measures device?

Dividing something - for example, a sack of grain - into two equal parts is simple enough - you use a simple balance scale.

Dividing a sack of grain into THREE equal parts is a bit more tricky. This metasiltstone bowl might represent a means by which such could have been achieved.

Imagine the artifact suspended at its centre with a cord. Now imagine the bowl filled with water. The water will create a level (like a spirit level). Mark the water level on the inside of the bowl. Finally, imagine three cloth sacks with a strap placed inside and looped around each of the three lobes, being suspended under the bowl. Even if the three sacks are all of different weights these can be equalised by adding small pebbles to the appropriate sack until the water in the bowl is again level. Now fill each of the three sacks with the grain, ensuring the water in the bowl remains level. When you have finished, each of the three sacks will have the same quantity (weight) of grain.

Such a weights and measure scale would be 50% more efficient than a simple balance scale. Just a thought.


There are a few problems with this theory. The object is asymetrical and highly fragile.  Being
asymetrical would throw off the equal division slightly but being fragile would make it inappropriate
for anything but the lightest measurements.  If it were designed to "weigh" gold or very precious
commodities then a balance scale would be more accurate.  One might imagine a handy dandy
little kitchen device that would weigh ingredients for two things at once against a standard weight
but the exceedingly high cost of making this object weighs heavily against it.

Indeed, it always comes down to this high cost.  Whatever it was used for from ceremonial bowl
to pump impellor it must have been very very important and very very valuable.  This also implies
that it would not have been used for something that could have been much better served by an
inexpensive or less complicated form.

There are no reported gradations or markings on the inside as might be used as balance indicators.
The grooves around the top might be suitable for this but being on the inside would make it difficult
to read.  Large objects like bags of grain would hang down and touch one another making "readings"
difficult.  I like the idea but can hardly imagine a practical application and none that would warrant
the expense.  There should normally be little need to divide things in three anyway and even less
need for anyonew who could afford this.

This isn't to say though that perhaps a metasiltstone worker who liked to sell small precious stones
on the side might not have made it as a craft object to weigh those stones.  But the presence of the
object in a royal cemetery suggests it was also of more than minor importance and not merely some
obscure individual's handiwork.  It's very difficult to make the concept work.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#576    Scott Creighton

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 07:27 PM

View Postcladking, on 13 October 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

There are a few problems with this theory. The object is asymetrical and highly fragile.  Being
asymetrical would throw off the equal division slightly but being fragile would make it inappropriate
for anything but the lightest measurements.  If it were designed to "weigh" gold or very precious
commodities then a balance scale would be more accurate.  One might imagine a handy dandy
little kitchen device that would weigh ingredients for two things at once against a standard weight
but the exceedingly high cost of making this object weighs heavily against it.

Indeed, it always comes down to this high cost.  Whatever it was used for from ceremonial bowl
to pump impellor it must have been very very important and very very valuable.  This also implies
that it would not have been used for something that could have been much better served by an
inexpensive or less complicated form.

There are no reported gradations or markings on the inside as might be used as balance indicators.
The grooves around the top might be suitable for this but being on the inside would make it difficult
to read.  Large objects like bags of grain would hang down and touch one another making "readings"
difficult.  I like the idea but can hardly imagine a practical application and none that would warrant
the expense.  There should normally be little need to divide things in three anyway and even less
need for anyonew who could afford this.

This isn't to say though that perhaps a metasiltstone worker who liked to sell small precious stones
on the side might not have made it as a craft object to weigh those stones.  But the presence of the
object in a royal cemetery suggests it was also of more than minor importance and not merely some
obscure individual's handiwork.  It's very difficult to make the concept work.

Hi Ck,

My reference to dividing grain into three equal measures was purely as an example. It needn't be something that would be particularly heavy to measure. Obviously I don't know what might have been required to be divided into three equal parts/measures. The point, however, is that this device may well have allowed such division of three to be done quickly and easily.

As another example--suppose there existed in AE some ritual in a temple that required filling six containers with the same amount of 'sacred oil'. Each of the six containers are slightly different sizes and thus can hold slightly different amounts of the 'sacred oil'. How do you ensure that each of the six slightly different sized containers receives the same amount of the 'sacred oil'? If it were eight containers it is relatively simple to divide--you simply half the original quantity using a simple balance scale, then half and half again until you have eight equal measures. This is not so easy when you require, 3, 5, (6), 7, (9) etc equal measures of the 'sacred oil' (remember, there were 9 Gods of the AE Ennead). A device like this might easily solve that problem.

As I said though--just thinking outside the sarcophagus.

Best,

SC

Edited by Scott Creighton, 13 October 2013 - 07:37 PM.

"The man o' independent mind... is king o' men, for a' that." - Robert Burns

#577    cladking

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostScott Creighton, on 13 October 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:



My reference to dividing grain into three equal measures was purely as an example. It needn't be something that would be particularly heavy to measure. Obviously I don't know what might have been required to be divided into three equal parts/measures. The point, however, is that this device may well have allowed such division of three to be done quickly and easily.

As another example--suppose there existed in AE some ritual in a temple that required filling six containers with the same amount of 'sacred oil'. Each of the six containers are slightly different sizes and thus can hold slightly different amounts of the 'sacred oil'. How do you ensure that each of the six slightly different sized containers receives the same amount of the 'sacred oil'? If it were eight containers it is relatively simple to divide--you simply half the original quantity using a simple balance scale, then half and half again until you have eight equal measures. This is not so easy when you require, 3, 5, (6), 7, (9) etc equal measures of the 'sacred oil' (remember, there were 9 Gods of the AE Ennead). A device like this might easily solve that problem.

As I said though--just thinking outside the sarcophagus.

We're both huge fans of thinking outside the (stone) box and you've done a great job here.

But, the more I think of this idea the less I like it.  Looping the handles of a sack over these
"lobes" could result in a wide range of the circumferance upon which  the weight might act.
If the rope were near a lobe it would not get a good division in three.  There should be a groove
or post where the rope belongs.  Perhaps it could still be used similarly to the way you envision
it if there were standard weights that fit right over each of the lobes and the oil were stored
on the inside but there are no spouts and this gets cumbersome and more complicated rather
than easier.  Perhaps the rings on the center tube could be gradations for measurement but
then we're getting back toward the object being a bowl and the highest ring is above its capacity.

I don't really like this idea either but how about a sort of "pre-winnower"?  If this were placed
"right side up" over a large jug or distribution system for jugs and grain were dropped from two
or three feet on a windy day then the husks would be blown clear and the grain would pile up
and funnel into the center tube.  Errant husks might have a much higher probility of hitting a lobe
and being rejected if it were oriented just right. The main thing wrong is not much separation
can be achieved with the low fall of the grain caused by the nearness of the lobes to the stream
and this still won't explain the rings on the center tube. There should be wear on this if it were
used extensively for this purpose.  Worse, with no center tube at all the device might be more
functional for such purpose.

Weighing and measuring aren't out but I think we need to abandon "toy", "anything that requires
work", and to put "ornamentation" on the back burner.  Of course if it's merely a model for some-
thing to be made of metal then nothing is excluded yet.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#578    cladking

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:52 PM

View Postcladking, on 20 June 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

I believe "Sekhmet" was the "natural phenomenon of power derived from water at altitude".  Here "seven arrows" were the vector equations that determined loads in the "boats of balance".  The oar shaped devices that diverted water from the crown at the "upper eye of horus" were called "Sekhmet's scepters" or "shm-sceptres".  Sekhmet appears to have usurped Hathor's role as "(feminine) phenomenon of power of water" when the mehet weret cow was invented to catch the water at higher altitudes.

As such Sekhmet is very closely associated with the fire-pan.  Among her myriad names are;

Flaming One
Self-Contained
Awakener (remember those with ready hands stand to make an offering to the dead king)
Opener of Ways
Lady Of Transformations
Inspirer of Men
Ruler Of The Desert
Ruler Of Lions (remember shu anf tefnuts are the lions of upward and downward)
Empowerer
Sparkling One (remember the floating willow tree oil)
Lady Of The Magic Lamp
Lady Of The Waters Of Life
Ruler Of The Chamber Of Flames
Sekhmet, Who Rouseth The People
Shining Of Countenance
The One Who Holds Back Darkness
The Beautiful Light
Lady Of All Powers


...(from Litany)
1.  O Sekhmet, Eye of Ra, Great of Flame,
2.  O Sekhmet, You who illumine the Double Land with your flame and give the faculty of sight to all!
6.  O Sekhmet, the one who makes every eye to see,
7.  O Sekhmet, when you rise, the Light appears; when you go back, darkness comes!
9.  O Sekhmet, Ardent Flame, who lights a fire, when she took the torch!
Who causes her flame to rise.
13. O Sekhmet, who enters in the opening of the mountains, she from which the flame fills for him
21. O Sekhmet, the one who opens the mountains,
25. O Sekhmet, the one who shines, on account of whom one jubilates when it is ordered that her flame advances! When you shine, one jubilates because of you; (when) you are kind, the flame is pacified.
26. O Sekhmet, at whose setting the darkness appears, in such a way that if
someone nods his head (lit., makes a nod of the head) to his neighbor, they
will not see one another!
37. O Sekhmet, the one who loves Maat (remember ma'at is the phenomenon of balance)

I find this all very highly telling.

http://kevinmichaelc...mes-of-sekhmet/

I recommend this site and believe everything fits and not only the small segments I've quoted.  It fits solely because this tri lobed disc was a floating lantern on the pyramid top during construction.

Since posting this I've learned quite a bit about zep tepi.  I don't think it is all
relevant to this thread so will omit it except to say that it was the mythological
first eruption of atum.  What makes this relevant is that another consistency
emerges with the names of "sekhmet" who carried away the crown of the king
at the upper eye of horus;

"Lady Of The Place Of The Beginning of Time"

or;

"Lady of the place of zep tepi"

Since this so called tri-lobed disc fits as being the fire-pan as described by the
pyramid builders and it is overseen by the "lady of the magic lamp" then it is
necessarily at the place of zep tepi which ties it all together.

We are looking at the pieces of a puzzle and trying to fit them together in a highly
unnatural way.  The tri-lobed disc is the key to making all the pieces fit seamlessly.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#579    cladking

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 12:33 AM

I'm only 26 minutes into this video which is so far superb;



At the 24 minute mark they mention the tri-lobed disc and seem to confirm that it has been removed from its place of prominence at the entrance.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#580    jalalideen

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:46 AM

I know exactly what this disk was for....it is much more amazing than anyone could ever imagine.  It is for a technology grander than any that exists in even this modern world....any egyptologists interested to know it's purpose contact me at jalalideen@gmail.com.  I have submited patents for this discovery and i will only share with serious egyptologists.


#581    MuddyFeet

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:44 AM

View Postjalalideen, on 30 April 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

I know exactly what this disk was for....it is much more amazing than anyone could ever imagine.  It is for a technology grander than any that exists in even this modern world....any egyptologists interested to know it's purpose contact me at jalalideen@gmail.com.  I have submited patents for this discovery and i will only share with serious egyptologists.

Sounds like Scammy Scammer and the Scammettes Greatest hits album. You looking for money or just emails because your lonely?

Kids, don't feed the scammers.





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