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Bermuda triangle


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#31    karl 12

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 12:58 PM

Mattshark on Mar 9 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

It is all a nonsense.


Quote

Possibly, the debunker is just as bad. What is truly sad is that they promote themselves to be the “skeptic” and promote themselves as the voices of science.  They don’t even know what the word means. I consider most of them little better than hucksters who saw a good way to get attention and make money by being “devil’s advocate” to a popular subject. They stifle inquiry and make fun of those who inquire.

http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/skept...e_triangle.html






#32    Mattshark

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 02:20 PM

karl 12 on Mar 10 2009, 12:58 PM, said:


Karl, look it is obvious you blindly believe everything about UFO's. But the thing about the Bermuda triangle really is crap. It all stems from a book relying on lies by Berlitz. There is nothing unusual about the area. Even the shipping records say so, the insurance companies say so. So unless you can find a good source saying otherwise. Please don't post such "anti-sceptical" nonsense.
I consider the author of the piece you quoted an idiot with little grasp of reality personally. Maybe he should look at what a busy area the triangle is for traffic. I'm curious to how I'm making money off this though Karl.

Edited by Mattshark, 10 March 2009 - 02:22 PM.

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#33    karl 12

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:13 PM

Mattshark on Mar 10 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

Karl, look it is obvious you blindly believe everything about UFO's.


Not realy but without getting personal -I think you wilfully ignore a great deal of testimony,reports and radar/sonar corellated incidents just to reinforce your own cynical preconceptions.  


Quote

But the thing about the Bermuda triangle really is crap.


You weren't even aware of the Dragon's triangle until someone on this thread pointed it out to you -I'd also wager you didn't even lift a finger to look into any of the reports before deeming it all 'a lot of silly nonsense'.

I think its got a lot more to do with lazy prejudice than anything else.
Its all very predictable but people like you give true,open minded,sceptical research a bad name and its telling that in many debunker/true beleiver circles , 'objectivity' is a dirty word.






#34    aquatus1

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:20 PM

karl 12 on Mar 10 2009, 05:13 PM, said:

I'd also wager you didn't even lift a finger to look into any of the reports before deeming it all 'a lot of silly nonsense'.


Karl, you've referenced in quotes the phrase 'a lot of silly nonsense', several times now.  You have even done in it reference to me.  I'm not sure you understand what quoting implies.

When you use the quote function, or even when you reference something in quotes, what you are implying, in as direct a fashion as possible, is that the person you are responding to actually did say (i.e you "quote") the statement.  If the person did not say what you are implying they did, then it becomes a matter of libel.  You are putting words in their mouth.

Please stop doing that.  If you are going to use quotes, then do so using the quote function, which will automatically reference the quote with the person who made it.  But don't use imply a quote when the person being referred to never actually said it.


#35    Mattshark

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:20 PM

karl 12 on Mar 10 2009, 04:13 PM, said:

Not realy but without getting personal -I think you wilfully ignore a great deal of testimony,reports and radar/sonar corellated incidents just to reinforce your own cynical preconceptions.

No, I just do not take second hand reports at their word and I actually bother to look for other possible and more parsimonious answers. For some reason this seems to really upset you.

Quote

You weren't even aware of the Dragon's triangle until someone on this thread pointed it out to you -I'd also wager you didn't even lift a finger to look into any of the reports before deeming it all 'a lot of silly nonsense'.

I think its got a lot more to do with lazy prejudice than anything else.
Its all very predictable but people like you give true,open minded,sceptical research a bad name and its telling that in many debunker/true beleiver circles , 'objectivity' is a dirty word.


Actually I was Karl. I have debated it with DC previously (please feel free to search). I have read about so please do not be so presumptuous.
If you can provide real evidence to any of this feel free. Please show some real evidence of anything unusual happening.
I'll be waiting.

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#36    karl 12

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:37 PM

Interesting read:

Quote

Myth:

“A check of Lloyd’s of London’s accident records by the editor of Fate in 1975 showed that the triangle was a no more dangerous part of the ocean than any other. U.S. Coast Guard records confirmed this and since that time no good arguments have ever been made to refute those statistics. So the Bermuda Triangle mystery disappeared, in the same way many of its supposed victims had vanished.”

Fact:

This is completely false. Lloyd’s does not insure the smaller stuff, so all yachts go unreported and uncataloged in statistics. Lloyd’s seldom insures the smaller charter and private aircraft, so likewise for them. Lloyd’s is not the ultimate source. It is not a marine investigation bureau. It reports on sailing news relevant to insurance.

US Coast Guard SAR (Search and Rescue) statistics for all districts are published yearly in a thick voluminous report. This details the statistics for calls of assistance,  causes of accidents, weather, deaths, conditions, whatever. However, missing vessels are not readily included. In reality, the designation Overdue Vessels are more important. But because it is hard to determine the number of people on board and exactly where the vessel last was, “missing” or “overdue” cannot be easily calculated. They may be catagorized under “caused by other factor” if at all. I have just received a list of vessels from the 7th district after 12 years of asking for and being denied missing vessel statistics, always receiving the reply “nobody tracks such statistics.” For the last 2 fiscal years this includes about 300 vessel names or types. And now I must start my search, to see which reported back to port (if any), what the weather conditions were like, etc.
   The Coast Guard is not even capable of accurately determining the numbers, and therefore could never have conducted a study. What they probably did was comment on the popular notion that 20 aircraft and 50 ships are missing. That number was bandied about incessantly in the 1970s and is still in the Encyclopedia Britannica. This number is not extraordinary for 100 years, though it is more aircraft than elsewhere over seas.
   NTSB database searches reveal that in the last decade only a handful of aircraft disappearances have occurred off New England while over 30 have happened in the Triangle. These are American statistics only, and do not reflect other nationalities.
  Then there are those who claim the disparity is due to the Triangle’s greater amount of traffic. In reality, the 1st Coast Guard district answers about just as many calls for assistance as the 7th, but the number of disappearances is still remarkably different.

http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/html/myths___facts.html



Interesting incidents in the Bermuda triangle:


UFOs/USOs witnessed and radar corellated aboard the USS Waldron,1968 -Puerto Rico.

Quote

If you don't believe they exist and that we are not alone in this universe, you can ask two bridge watch sections on USS Waldron, the destroyer that I served aboard from 1967 to 1970. One night in 1968 while on an operation in the Caribbean, I went up to the open bridge to relieve the watch. At 23:45, the other watch section wouldn't leave – this is really unusual because typically they want to get what’s left of the mid-rats (sandwiches and soup served on the mess deck) and hit the rack However, they stayed to observe two UFO’s that were being tracked on radar by CIC.

They were tracking two bright lights, that didn't answer up to IFF – they weren't enemy, friend, foe or commercial aircraft. And were flying at speeds in excess of 400 knots and making turns at right angles. Nothing we knew of could do this but they did.

We saw them hover over the water within eyesight at about a few thousand yards, one submerging and the other as if standing guard above, waiting for the other to resurface. When it emerged, they buzzed off in formation at about a 45-degree angle to exit our planet. As they became distant, turned color from a bright white to a burning amber, and disappearing within about 10 seconds. I presume the colour change was due to the craft heating up as it whizzed through our atmosphere.

All this happened in the Bermuda Triangle! We were on an operation called Racer Run near Puerto Rico. Ship officials supposedly logged a report to Washington but we never heard anymore about it.

I've told several people about this and many acted as if I had 3 heads, but I have witnesses and evidence: there were about 20 in the 2 bridge watch sections, the combat watch sections (CIC), the ships log and the report sent to Washington.

Please, don't tell me it was swamp gas or that I was hallucinating. When I mentioned this to someone years later while working in Porto Rico, he told me that UFO sightings are not unusual and he’s seen them himself.

http://www.mufon.com/mufonreports.htm


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Unidentified submerged object incident in Puerto Rico.

Quote

Object at 27,000 ft depth - travelling at 170 Mph - independently verified by 13 separate ship sonar screens.

HIGH-SPEED USO

A sonar operator aboard a destroyer reported that one of the subs suddenly commenced pursuit of an unknown submerged object that was moving at "over 150 knots" (170-plus miles per hour!). According to most accounts, similar sonar reports of a high-speed object began coming in from all of the other ships and from the sonar-trailing aircraft. One of Sanderson's sources stated that no less than 13 craft recorded in their logs that their sonars had tracked this object. Allegedly, the unknown target continued to be tracked for four days as it maneuvered down to depths of 27,000 feet! (This must have been in the vicinity of the Atlantic's deepest point -- 28,374 feet below sea level -- in the Puerto Rico Trench.)
If the above story is true, nothing of known earthly origin can travel underwater at such speeds or maneuver at such depths. The fastest nuclear subs can attain 45 knots (52 miles per hour) and dive to around 3,000 feet. The bathyscaphe Trieste, with a specially constructed pressure-resistant hull, descended to a record 35,820 feet in 1960. However, it was incapable of maneuvering about.
It is unfortunate that more than 21 years elapsed before the Preston case reached the attention of a UFO investigator. We have here yet another example of government UFO secrecy at work--this time a foreign nation, Great Britain. Largely due to his apprehension over potential repercussions if he revealed his experience, Tom felt compelled to keep his knowledge of the event to himself. Since it hadn't occurred to him at the time that the radar log notes would be removed, he had only his memory to rely upon during our interviews. He expressed uncertainty about some of the details and about his exact location off the coast of Norway. Nevertheless, the gist of what took place seems quite clear.
If we assume that the observer's recollections are approximately correct regarding the UFO's 35,000-foot vertical height, 70° elevation angle, three-second descent, and approximate 10-mile-distant entry point, then we can infer that the object's 30° descent path covered 14 miles at a speed of about 17,000 miles per hour--in the neighborhood of a slow meteor's velocity.


ANOMALOUS PROPAGATION

The radar target apparently was not confirmed visually. This situation would ordinarily lead one to believe anomalous propagation might be responsible. AP arises when abnormal atmospheric conditions interfere with the normal propagation of radar waves, causing a display of false targets in places and at altitudes where no physical object should appear. For example, super refractive layers in the atmosphere may bend radar beams at such an angle that they pick up distant surface or airborne targets below the horizon and make them appear at elevated locations on the radarscope. Nothing would be evident to the naked eye in the sky.
Nevertheless, according to the witness, none of the conditions that might lead to AP were in fact present at the time.
But there are other arguments against anomalous propagation and natural phenomena in general being the cause of the radar-sonar targets. Was it just a coincidence that the target suddenly darted away at the moment the jets approached after having remained stationary for quite possibly some 10 or 15 minutes? Was it a coincidence that an unidentified, high-speed sonar target appeared in the same direction of the airborne target's point of disappearance below the radar horizon and within seconds of loss of radar contact? What sort of airborne natural phenomenon can suddenly submerge and maneuver almost equally well through a water environment?


EVASIVE ACTION

The image on radar gave all the outward appearances of reacting to the jets' approach and then successfully eluding further detection by submerging in the ocean and eventually retreating from view. Another example of apparent intelligent behavior: The target appeared to follow the fleet’s evasive "Z" maneuver.
Owing to (1) the lengthy passage of more than two decades since the experience occurred and the resultant diminished accuracy of remembered details, (2) the unavailability of written data or records concerning the instrumented readings, (3) the availability of only a single witness, and (4) the lack of visual confirmation, I might ordinarily have listed this reported experience as "simply" an "unknown.”
But because of the credibility of the witness and the report's unique and potentially important nature as a combined radar-sonar UFO contact, l have elected to upgrade the status of this report to that of "significant unknown."

http://www.waterufo.net/item.php?id=174


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First Navy nuclear Weapon carrier USS Franklin D. Roosevelt:

Quote

In the year 1958, we were on a shakedown cruise when there was a small light that was following our ship. Then the light came right at us; it came in close enough to us so you could see the shape of the object and also see that there were figures inside of it. The impression that I got was that those figures were not human beings.”
Chester Grusinski of Clinton Twp., Michigan.

The year was 1958. Grusinski was only 18, a crew member on the USS Aircraft Carrier Franklin D. Roosevelt, cruising the Carribean (sic) near Cuba.
Notes Grusinski, "I was down below when I was told to go topside to see something strange," says Chester, now 56. "So I went up and couldn’t believe my eyes."
“I saw a bright white ball of light. [Note: Chester had hand written “cigar shape” in the margin.-CF-] It headed straight for us, getting bigger and brighter. It was spherical, approximately 75 to 100 feet long. It turned red orange and I could feel the heat on my face."
As this was going on, the man on watch was yelling into the intercom for an officer to get up on deck.

Grusinski continues, “I could see silhouettes of figures looking at us. They had no features and you could tell they weren’t human. Then the bottom turned cherry red and it vanished in a flash.”

Soon after the incident crew members who talked about it were transferred. Then the CIA came on board to investigate a so-called "gambling problem."
"It was a massive coverup," notes Grusinski. "There was no gambling."

The reunion revealed that 8 to 10 separate UFO sightings were connected with this ship. He located several witnesses.
One incident took place off Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on July 26, 1956. Grusinski says, "Two disk objects were suspended in mid-air. They were over one another; they had two rows of counter-rotating lights. The upper disk released a fireball object that dropped into the top of the lower.
Within seconds they both vanished with tremendous speed. These were seen by Leon Treadwell, Petty Officer Third Class. All involved witnesses were told to keep a tight lip. Treadwell had to sign papers that he would tell no one for 20 years.

http://www.waterufo.net/item.php?id=1083


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Witness account:

Quote

They looked toward the sea and saw a black disk come out the water with pulsating red and orange lights. It flashed it lights heading north and strait up and out of site in about15 seconds. Some other persons like the Puerto Rico Police Department also viewed the incident, and reported to his headquarters.
The USO was tracked for four days by the carrier group, with the object moving at impossible speeds before stopping - reports were sent to CINCLANT (Commander-in-Chief Atlantic Command), but no determination was made as to the nature of the unidentified craft.

http://www.waterufo.net/item.php?id=935


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Puerto Rico USO incident involving fleet of US Submarines:

QUOTE
In March 1963,American submarines were involved in exercises with a fleet of surface ships one hundred miles off Puerto Rico.
One of the submarines broke off from its assigned course and began pursuing an unidentified object which their instruments told them was travelling in excess of 150 knots at a depth of 20,000 feet.

Optical physicist and ufologist Bruce Maccabee had investigated the incident and stated that such speeds and depths were, and still are, impossible for today’s submersibles (with the crush depth for submarines being about 7,000 feet).

http://www.waterufo.net/radson.php


----

Large UFO witnessed above the seas around Puerto Rico:

QUOTE
I was fishing with some other fishermen out at sea. We were a couple of miles south of La Esperanza. It was about 9:00 PM when we suddenly saw something unexpected. We saw several very bright spheres of light come out from the top of Cerro Ventana (mountain located in the south of Vieques).

"These globes of light were of a blue-white hue and seemed to come right out from the top of the hill. They circled the hill and flew out to sea to the south, flying right over us. They made several quick circles and angle turns. You could hear a slight hissing or whistling sound, almost inaudible, which seemed to come from them.

"After that, they returned to Playa Grande and Cerro Ventana, areas controlled by the US Navy, and disappeared inside the mountain. It was as if they had merged with the side of the mountain.

"The most impressive event was when we encountered a huge object at night while out at sea fishing. I was with An’bal Corcino and his father, and we had just come out from La Esperanza.

"I wasn't aware of the object at first because I was the captain and in charge of the rudder at the time. An’bal and his father saw it and yelled, 'Carlos, look at that!' I looked back and saw this huge ... a sort of craft. It came out from the sea near the Playa Grande lagoon, in the south, where the Navy's (Raytheon) ROTHR radar system is installed. It rose from its position and started moving closer to us.

"It was an extraordinary huge craft, immense, with many lights all around it. It was a flying saucer, a round disc-like craft, but really huge in size. It was at some distance from us, but clearly visible due to its size and the lights it had all over it, yellow, blue, and red lights.

"The peculiar thing about all this was that the object, that saucer, was taking in water from the sea. The water at the sea's surface was swirling in a circle, and jumping, as if boiling. It was like a whirlpool. It seemed to be going up into the saucer in a column of water.

"We were all very impressed. It was the first time in my life that I have seen anything like this craft. From where we were, it looked to be about 40 to 50 feet in diameter, and we were about a mile and a half away from it. That can give you some idea of the size.

"But what impressed me the most was that it was sucking water from the sea, and the water was swirling like in a blender. A column of bright green light, similar to that of a powerful spotlight, was coming out from under the object. There was a hole there and the beam came out downwards, vertically. The water went up into the saucer through the beam of light. After that, the object flew away to the west at a fantastic speed and disappeared in a matter of seconds.



----

Documentary:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d65_1191429066

Many more incidents:
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=145983

Edited by karl 12, 10 March 2009 - 04:39 PM.


#37    Mattshark

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 05:01 PM

1)There are plenty of Bermuda triangle folk who do not believe Puerto Rico is in the the Bermuda Triangle Karl so why is there such disparity in the idea of the area?
2)How can you verify these reports?
3)Why is travel insurance to less to go to Bermuda or the Bahamas than the mainland USA or Canada?
4)Can you show their are any more disappearances in that area than anywhere else on an independent site?

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#38    aquatus1

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 05:01 PM

Karl, can you provide an insurance company, or any sort of maritime service, that modifies its policies due to the Bermuda Triangle region being considered unusually harmful?  So that they won't lose more money than the risk is worth?


#39    Lilly

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 05:51 PM

Things (boats, planes) can go missing easily over just about any body of water. Hence, this is why one finds the so-called mystery disappearances in "The Devil's Triangle", "The Great Lake's Triangle", "The Dragon's Triangle"...they're all areas of oceans/lakes. Storms come up, weather gets wild...things tend to sink. Not really all that mysterious IMO.

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#40    crystal sage

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 07:39 PM

bee on Mar , 06:17 AM)

Mmmmmmmmmm wonder if THIS might have had anything to do with that....

A mysterious HEXAGON in Exmouth, Australia.

Just a thought.... cool.gif  original.gif

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&i...mp;t=h&z=14



Wow!!&, said:

Mmmmmmmmmm wonder if THIS might have had anything to do with that....

A mysterious HEXAGON in Exmouth, Australia.

Just a thought.... cool.gif  original.gif

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&i...mp;t=h&z=14



Wow!!!  It reminds me of one of the crop circles.
I wonder what it is?


#41    crystal sage

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 08:00 PM

aquatus1 on Mar , 04:01 AM)

Karl, can you provide an insurance company, or any sort of maritime service, that modifies its policies due to the Bermuda Triangle region being considered unusually harmful?  So that they won't lose more money than the risk is worth?

cool.gif   Maybe the Actuaries are skeptics too, so won't even consider the potential risk data for their evaluation.

Maybe sky diving, gliding , car racing , mountain climbing may be considered high risk, but things such as investigating the paranormal, anything to do with the unusual, unexplained such as voodoo, spells, UFO.s,  traveling near  or in vortex areas would not be, as it would be really difficult to obtain any empirical data that meets the insurers  criteria. Situations have to be registered  or , said:

Karl, can you provide an insurance company, or any sort of maritime service, that modifies its policies due to the Bermuda Triangle region being considered unusually harmful?  So that they won't lose more money than the risk is worth?

cool.gif   Maybe the Actuaries are skeptics too, so won't even consider the potential risk data for their evaluation.

Maybe sky diving, gliding , car racing , mountain climbing may be considered high risk, but things such as investigating the paranormal, anything to do with the unusual, unexplained such as voodoo, spells, UFO.s,  traveling near  or in vortex areas would not be, as it would be really difficult to obtain any empirical data that meets the insurers  criteria. Situations have to be registered  or accepted as Fact before they can weigh the risks. and become part of an insurance chart.

Edited by crystal sage, 10 March 2009 - 08:01 PM.


#42    legionromanes

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 08:03 PM

crystal sage on Mar 10 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

cool.gif   Maybe the Actuaries are skeptics too, so won't even consider the potential risk data for their evaluation.

Maybe sky diving, gliding , car racing , mountain climbing may be considered high risk, but things such as investigating the paranormal, anything to do with the unusual, unexplained such as voodoo, spells, UFO.s,  traveling near  or in vortex areas would not be, as it would be really difficult to obtain any empirical data that meets the insurers  criteria. Situations have to be registered  or accepted as Fact before they can weigh the risks. and become part of an insurance chart.

Never worked in insurance have you CS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God
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#43    aquatus1

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 08:18 PM

crystal sage on Mar 10 2009, 08:00 PM, said:

cool.gif   Maybe the Actuaries are skeptics too, so won't even consider the potential risk data for their evaluation.


Actuaries calculate based on the risks and the potential.  They don't care about the why and the how.  Whether a ship disappears because it sank, because it got eaten by a sea monster, or because it got sucked into an Atlantean vortex, all it boils down to is that the ship disappeared and they have to pay for it.


#44    crystal sage

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 09:08 PM

legionromanes on Mar , 07:03 AM)

Never worked in insurance have you CS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God
thu, said:</p><div class='blockquote'><div class='quote'>Never worked in insurance have you CS<br /><a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God
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   Yes I did .. for 9 years


#45    aquatus1

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 09:20 PM

crystal sage on Mar 10 2009, 09:08 PM, said:

Yes I did .. for 9 years


Excellent.  So, can you provide an insurance company, or any sort of maritime service, that modifies its policies due to the Bermuda Triangle region being considered unusually harmful?

These disappearing ships are costing someone a lot of money.  How are they protecting themselves, financially?



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