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i feel sorry for them


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#16    Mr-X

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Posted 11 November 2002 - 06:36 AM

Homer stated:

Mr-X mentioned lies, and it was lies that drove these people to commit acts of terrorism against civilizations.


              "The first casualty of war in the truth"


#17    Kismit

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Posted 11 November 2002 - 07:37 AM

Well said Mr .X.


#18    Homer

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Posted 11 November 2002 - 02:05 PM

cat,
in response to your problems:
1. "The person being tortured might not actually know anything. You can never be sure."   Nothing in war is a sure thing, including the gathering of information. But to disregard a possible source of information is not very smart.

2. "The person being tortured may have agreed in the name of religion that they will never tell anything to anyone no matter what they endure."
   See reply #1

3. "These people hate America and all the other countries like it. They don't care if they are tortured because they have succeeded in putting fear into the heart of these countries and their lives are insignificant in the face of that"   Nobody likes to be tortured, and most people, regardless of their beliefs, have a breaking point in the way of extreme pain

4. "They can lie, how do you really know what they say is true?"   As I already mentioned in my first post, this information has to be cross referenced with others who are being tortured. Again, there are no guarantees.

5. "Violence doesn't work, it never has and it never will.
Psychological and physical torture removes the victim from reality; you will not get valid results if you get any results at all."
   Violence does work. It always has and it always will. This is not to say that it will work in every circumstance, but in general it does work. Psychological and physical torture is an art form that has been practiced for thousands of years, and there are people who specialize in only that.


Mr-X,
That was my point. Thank you. Since it was our enemies that initiated this war, and the fact that these people were lied to in order for them to carry out the atrocities, that statement holds true. Although that statement also holds true in every circumstance involving war, does that mean that we shouldn't gather intelligence to assist in winning a war that is already in progress?

This is my last post on the subject because you all know my views about it. My intent was not to persuade people into agreeing with me, but to offer a different perspective and my reasons for it.

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#19    Kismit

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Posted 11 November 2002 - 10:12 PM

Homer ,
   Don't be so sure that it was our enemies that started this war . You may only be aware of the facts that are being published on our side of the conflict .This is a war that stems back a long way and there has been an American military presence in these countries wich BTW are not there on peace keeping missions , for decades now .
    If somebody has been told that you are evil and they had to lie to  make you look that way , wouldn't you be better off showing them what you are really like , Or is the American government really that keen to see innocent people slaughtered in a war that makes them no better than the terrorists themselves.
  Innocent people are killed , children are slain and families are torn apart  both sides in a war have there victims to mourn, I can't see any reason valid enough to even start a war .  I won't even let my kids get away with the " Well he started it " thing.


#20    Homer

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Posted 11 November 2002 - 10:30 PM

Kismit,
you are missing the point. I'm not going into who started the war, because that would depend on what you stand for. The point is, the war has already been initiated, and we must win. Gathering intelligence is the single best weapon we can obtain in this war with people who have no borders or military or capital. Thats all my posts are about. Who started it is irrelevant at this point.

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#21    Kismit

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Posted 12 November 2002 - 01:35 AM

O.K. Homer I'm sory then If i miss interpreted what you said . It just worries me sometimes that people only see propaganda as something only the bad guys do .


#22    Bizarro

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Posted 12 November 2002 - 02:34 AM

the only thing that torture does for a war effort is lead to hostility of the people you tortured.  those people will remember us as brutal and uncivilized long after this battle that we call a war is over.  then we will really have a problem when we may have to face a greater foe who is resolved to repay our atrocities in kind.

i think its one thing to win a war, but its another thing entirely to be brutal as you suggest, Homer.  look how the germans embraced us after world war II- why did they do that?  because they were scared of the russians and needed our protection.  they looked at us as a civilized foe and knew that most of the prisoners captured by the russians never returned.  that initial trust has led to them becoming a very important ally to us to this day.


#23    Homer

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Posted 12 November 2002 - 05:18 AM

QUOTE
the only thing that torture does for a war effort is lead to hostility of the people you tortured.  those people will remember us as brutal and uncivilized long after this battle that we call a war is over.  then we will really have a problem when we may have to face a greater foe who is resolved to repay our atrocities in kind.


DSchwartz,
That wouldn't be a problem, because after the "interviews", the prisoners disappear. By your example, DSchwartz, you are saying that after the war is over international terrorists will embrace us if we're nice to them? And that in doing this they may become an important ally to us? :s2
DSchwartz, as I have mentioned before, this is a different kind of war under a different kind of circumstances with a different set of rules. Please don't take offense, but you and everyone else who has posted to this except me has no concept of reality, and strategic and tactical military opportunities are lost on you. You act as if you're in school where you're taught it doesn't matter if you win or lose, but how you play the game. Our enemies would love to play with you.

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#24    Kismit

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Posted 12 November 2002 - 08:34 AM

Well Homer I believe I have a very balanced sense of reality .
I think that Dshwatrz has a point too . I don't know how often I have said this but every single person in the world should be viewed  as an individual not a race or religion or a generalised type of any kind .
   It seems that your view of these prisoners and there families the people who are effected by this kind of treatment is that they are all terrorists and incapable of compassion . I think If one of my sons was made to disapear after becoming a prisoner of war I would go out of my way to rip the head off what ever bastard was responsible (aswell as  any body who tried to stop me)  ,  even if I didn't believe in the war before hand .
   Osama bin laden and Saddam Husien are both very good at using this kind of hostility to there advantage  .
   Torture is not a necisarry part of war and war is not a necisarry part of life.
       I think that  is the point  the unrealistic people on this thread are trying to make.  :roll:


#25    Kismit

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Posted 12 November 2002 - 09:10 AM

Maybe this could be a far more pleasant way to extract information than torture http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/4391614.htm


#26    Mr-X

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Posted 12 November 2002 - 10:44 AM

When he announced the air strikes,
President George Bush said:

"We're a peaceful nation."


"This is the calling of the United States of America.
The most free nation in the world. A nation built on
fundamental values that reject hate, reject violence,
rejects murderers and rejects evil. We will not tire."



Here is a list of the countries that America has been at
war with - and bombed - since the second world war:


China (1945-46, 1950-53)

Korea (1950-53)

Guatemala (1954, 1967-69)

Indonesia (1958)

Cuba (1959-60)

Belgian Congo (1964)

Peru (1965)

Laos (1964-73)

Vietnam (1961-73)

Cambodia (1969-70)

Grenada (1983)

Libya (1986)

El Salvador (1980s)

Nicaragua (1980s)

Panama (1989)

Iraq (1991-99)

Bosnia (1995)

Sudan (1998)

Yugoslavia (1999)

Afghanistan (2001-2002)


Certainly it does not tire - this,
the most free nation in the world.


  tell me Homer do all these countries have the right to fight back or should they be bullied all their lives. Of course theres terrorism in the world, terrorism comes from hate and hate comes from pain. So why should America continue what their doing? They have created these terrorist themselves out of the pain and suffering of others.

is it because they want to have control of the oil in the region. Or is because they want to get rid of any threat that will get in their way of globalization.


                                                                X


#27    Homer

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Posted 12 November 2002 - 10:57 PM

QUOTE
They have created these terrorist themselves out of the pain and suffering of others.

:roll:  Whatever

Mr-X,
Australia was the largest contributor to the allies outside the U.S. in China and Korea and played a significant role in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

Cuba dealt with nukes in the Cold War

Belgium Congo was primarily a French thing

Grenada dealth with containing communism

Lybia dealth with terrorism in which many Europeans died

Iraq dealt with liberating Kuwait from a powerful neighbor, in which the largest worldwide alliance in the history of the world was assembled

Bosnia and Yugoslavia were European/NATO operations

Sudan and Afghanistan were to combat terrorism


Mr-X,
With each post you look more feeble than the post before. This is like trying to teach physics to pre-schoolers. My participation in this discussion is at an end. Hopefully you will never experience the realities of life that will take you out of your happy little world.

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#28    cat

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Posted 13 November 2002 - 12:28 AM

If you are upset by the outrageous attack on the US, then why are you not outraged by the US attacks on other countries? Doesn't it go both ways? Are we not all the same species above and beyond how much money we have, what economic system we choose, or what religion we follow? Don't we feel pain in the same way?

I think war is natural, after all there are documented cases of wars among chimpanzees (not as extreme as ours) but they exist. On the other hand we are always at war, they are usually at peace. We have lived with war, violence and hatred since the dawn of so called civilization and we have no idea why or how to stop it. Some people even like it. Violence in other primates may be linked to child rearing practices maybe with us its just ignorance. Or maybe we are on the destructive path because we are too harmful.

There is a giant leap from war to torture. We have no right to torture anyone, to knowingly prolong suffering or death. We especially donít have the right to create psychological problems. How is this making the world a better place? We have no right to inflict pain because we believe our views are right and better.

"Violence does work. It always has and it always will. This is not to say that it will work in every circumstance, but in general it does work. Psychological and physical torture is an art form that has been practiced for thousands of years, and there are people who specialize in only that. "

Violence leads to fear, fear is a very short-lived emotion, and it pumps adrenalin. We cannot sustain high levels of adrenalin. Fear is rapidly replaced with anger and resentment. Resentment and anger lead to revenge and guess what this leads toÖ
This is not curing the problem, it is simply curing a deep need for revenge. This, in turn perpetuates the problem, which leads to further terrorist attacks.

Also if war and torture work so well then where is Osama Bin Laden? Why hasn't he been bought to justice? Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why Saddam has replaced Bin Laden on the American Hate Block? It has been over a year, this to me does not look good!


#29    Mr-X

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Posted 13 November 2002 - 05:33 AM

When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader (bush).

Plato (c.428-348 BC)
Republic, Book VIII


Homer all that i am trying to point out to is that violence, torture, murder only breeds the kind of people we fear as humans.


Bush has it backwards -- abortion is surgical; bombing is murder.
unknown
Sign at anti-war march


#30    Kira

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Posted 13 November 2002 - 06:27 AM

:s6 I have been watching this thread grow and grow with interest and can see what people are trying to say. Buts guys please Homer is not the bad guy here he is just expressing a point of view that comes from a slightly different angle.
Yes as does Mr X and the rest of the people who have expressed thier opinion here. And it seems to have gone from a torture thread to who has done what when when it comes to war.
WHAT I will say is that ok yes the US is doing it's best to help stamp out terrorism Now, but it has come a bit late into this kind of 'dirty war'. Infact for a while, they have as a nation,supported so called Charities that raise money to buy weapons etc for these kind of terrorist groups... The IRA being just one of many. And we as Brits,<just for an example there are many more> have had to deal with this kind of problem for years!
So while I applaud them for joining in, I feel that if 9/11 hadn't happened then they wouldn't have done so and would still be turning a blind eye.

and as I say that's just me opinion

We do what we do because of who we are. If we did otherwise, we would not be ourselves.




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