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Are Ideology and Morality like AIG and Citiba


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#1    coberst

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 06:35 PM

Are Ideology and Morality like AIG and Citibank?


Are AIG and Citibank too big and complex to fail?

Can our high tech capitalism, where extraordinary power rests in ordinary hands, survive such a situation?

How can capitalism adjust?


Are ideology and morality too big and complex to be encompassed by science?  

Can our high tech species, where extraordinary power rests in ordinary hands, survive such a situation?

How can the human species adjust?



I am really only interested in this later sequence of questions.









#2    Virtual Particle

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 04:25 AM

coberst on Apr 7 2009, 02:35 PM, said:

Are Ideology and Morality like AIG and Citibank?


Are AIG and Citibank too big and complex to fail?

Can our high tech capitalism, where extraordinary power rests in ordinary hands, survive such a situation?

How can capitalism adjust?


Are ideology and morality too big and complex to be encompassed by science?  

Can our high tech species, where extraordinary power rests in ordinary hands, survive such a situation?

How can the human species adjust?



I am really only interested in this later sequence of questions.



Capitalism is about recourses. Give a Capitalist state 50 trillion tons of Iron ore, 10 trillion tons of platinum, 100 billion tons of gold and 10 trillion tons of precious crystals and homeless people have cells phones. Have heard very recently that it is possible for us to set up shop in Mercury, for the purpose of collecting plasma from Sol (Actually I wish I had thought about it but I did not). We could do allot of things to insure our survival (how long would it take to travel to Mars is we had sail technology which allowed us to make use of photons as if they were wind. Here we are (as some of my descendants came from Germany) explorers since before we could write and today, some of us watch Fox news, MSNBC as well as the Stewart and Colbert report just to make sure we are keeping up??

Forget a Renaissance, its time for a Resonance. It's time to realize that with the faith of a mustard seed one can move mountains. Tesla proved it.......and so did Jesus......


Octaves anyone??





Any thoughts?

PS: With respect to AIG and Citibank...I HATE the word Treason but a rose by any other color smells just as sweet. yes.gif

Edited by Triad, 08 April 2009 - 04:37 AM.

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#3    Voyager10

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 04:39 AM

Triad on Apr 7 2009, 11:25 PM, said:

Capitalism is about recourses. Give a Capitalist state 50 trillion tons of Iron ore, 10 trillion tons of platinum, 100 billion tons of gold and 10 trillion tons of precious crystals and homeless people have cells phones. Have heard very recently that it is possible for us to set up shop in Mercury, for the purpose of collecting plasma from Sol (Actually I wish I had thought about it but I did not). We could do allot of things to insure our survival (how long would it take to travel to Mars is we had sail technology which allowed us to make use of photons as if they were wind. Here we are (as some of my descendants came from Germany) explorers since before we could write and today, some of us watch Fox news, MSNBC as well as the Stewart and Colbert report just to make sure we are keeping up??

Forget a Renaissance, its time for a Resonance. It's time to realize that with the faith of a mustard seed one can move mountains. Tesla proved it.......and so did Jesus......


Octaves anyone??





Any thoughts?

PS: With respect to AIG and Citibank...I HATE the word Treason but a rose by any other color smells just as sweet. yes.gif


I agree with that. There are already plans in the works for commercial flights into space just for recreation. This is when interplanetary space travel will really progress, when there is money to be made. That's what brought the colonists to America.

Edited by Voyager10, 08 April 2009 - 04:40 AM.

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#4    Virtual Particle

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 04:48 AM

Voyager10 on Apr 8 2009, 12:39 AM, said:

I agree with that. There are already plans in the works for commercial flights into space just for recreation. This is when interplanetary space travel will really progress, when there is money to be made. That's what brought the colonists to America.



Yes and we have come to terms that this is our destiny. Given our current proclivity for reproduction what will the population be in 1000 (how many generations) years? In 1 million years (if we survive)??

Edited by Triad, 08 April 2009 - 04:52 AM.

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#5    Virtual Particle

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 05:11 AM

I think that the only thing that really matters to all of us, is that our children outlive us.

Any thoughts?

Edited by Triad, 08 April 2009 - 05:15 AM.

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#6    Virtual Particle

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 05:32 AM

Thinking otherwise or even considering that maintaining the alternative as realistic, makes any sense????



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#7    coberst

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:17 AM

Darwin informs us that the species that fails to adapt to its changing environment will soon become toast.  If we lack the intellectual sophistication required to make a science of these two concepts then we lack the sophistication required to adapt to our changing environment and thus will shortly become toast.


#8    Virtual Particle

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:17 PM

In my opinion what mankind needs to overcome is fear (remember that speech). This especially having to do with things that are just outside there ability to understand.

Any thoughts?


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#9    seax

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 11:27 PM

You're asking can Capitalism work?  The answer is yes...but it has rules to go by.  Thomas Jefferson said and I'm paraphrasing:

Democracy will only work if it's people are moral.  

I think it is fair to say Democracy and Capitalism go hand in hand.  The trouble with the AIG's of the world is there have been a lot of greed and no one is enforcing the laws.  Some people just get greedy it is a human trait.  When greed takes over and there are no checks and balances thing can go awry.  Government should create or help maintain a level playing ground for everyone...only then will Capitalism work...as we all wish it would.  Competion ...fair competion will make going into space more affordable and create jobs at the sametime while producing a service people are willing to pay for.  Just an example.  

best regards,
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Edited by seax, 08 April 2009 - 11:28 PM.

There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers.

Richard Feynman

#10    Virtual Particle

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 12:09 AM

When one culture interacts with another, with the expectation of it being long term there is going to be interaction. Amongst the evidence of that, is that a large amount of people in the United States have Native American Ancestors. There are also other influences that go hand in hand, like for example the Cherokee Nation. Certain procedural issues and methodologies for governing that were inherent to indigenous cultures were translated and applied to how this Nation was designed. It is also important to remember that certain Native American Tribes cooperated with the formation of the United States. Capitalism offers an outlet for greed and as long as it is controlled that is a good thing, as feelings like this generate progress (as long as there are controls).

Any thoughts?

Edited by Triad, 09 April 2009 - 12:50 AM.

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#11    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 12:57 AM

If this is about capitalism then all the historical evidence testifies to the success of different forms of capitalism and the failure of most other models(particulary in dynamic and complex societies)
Look at the present situation as a natural correction to overzealous capitalism which was a natural response to human nature. I just lost 50,000 from my superannuation fund , but capitalism and the system which evolved around it means i accumulated $250000 . In a few years i will earn back what i lost and more, if i dont retire first. In capitalist societies, not only do most peole have an opportunity to live well, they also have the opportunity to slowly develop assets which may be passed on to children, thus adding to the accumulated wealth of all.

(I am a teacher on a modest wage. My wife has never worked, so we have always had only one income. I live a comfortable if prudent life, and if not for both natural and financial disaster i would have fully owned my own house and had enough to retire on at 55. )

Capitalism rewards both labour and capital, but sometimes it is not fairly balanced. This is the responsibility of democratic govts (and also of the voters within those societies) It also tends to reflect an accurate reward for both effort and aptitude. Most people approve of the former but sometimes see the latter as unfair. it also rewards(and punishes) people who are risk takers.
My sister and bro in law mortgaged their house, borowed money and built a 40 foot steel fishing boat in their back yard. they then built uop a fishing business including transport . Then they chose to sell all this, remortgage their house and reinvest in the infancy of commercial oyster fishing.

They could have gone broke several times but with very hard work, capital investment and risk to both life and finances they built a business which employs many others andis worth many millions of dollars.

They then built a house and spent another million and a half restoring and enlarging it it. This employed about 20 tradesmen for a year.

These examples illustrate on a personal level the way capitalism works when it is working as it should.

If there was not a chance of considerable financial reward, no one would risk their; time, labour, life, and existing capital, just to generate more.

Hence the collapse of communism in the soviet union and its evolution into state sponsored capitalism in china.

Some one mentioned over population. By its nature, capitalism creates food surpluses which feed others.. Most non capitalist systems have just managed to feed them selves or in some cases failed to do so.. A food surplus, of course, was the original cause of the first capitalist system, as people sought to barter or sell their surplus.

But dont worry too much about over population. Inside 50 years the worlds population will be in steeep and steady decline. LAready most of the western (capitalist ) world has a birth rate far less than that required to simply replace its ow population. As the world becomes wealthier. this change will intensify and speed up.
The biggest problem in the next couple of centuries will be declining and aging populations in most of the world. Many people will migrate from poorer countires to become both skilled and unskilled labour in the richer countries. In turn they will then become less "fertile" and enhance the whole process)
( This is not an argument for profligate or unnecesary consumption of resources, just a pointer to the future)


Edited by Mr Walker, 09 April 2009 - 01:09 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#12    seax

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 01:45 AM

Hello Mr. Walker and Triad.....

I read both your post with interest and I think we all have  a common denominator in the subject and I think that common denominator is some government regulation and intervention over the free market.  It is my humble opinion that government....the private sector each have a part in a good..working and viable economy...but in the same sentence I will say that government can't create jobs...which fuel capitalism although government can stop economic developement and growth by trying to step into the part that should be in the realm of the private sector.  Mr. Walker...you made mention you are a teacher..which is under the realm of the government... as it should be.  You produce under the right circumstances individuals that have gotten the necessary tools to enter the private sector to produce there.  So... in essence you have a partnership of government doing what it does best helping the privated sector witht he tools it needs to compete in a market.  When done properly the wealth made in the private sector funds the government and economy to produce what we call capitalism.  Capitalism encourages freedom because...if you can build say a better computer for less money then you have done 3 things

1) produced a better product
2) at a cheaper price
3) created jobs and fuel the economy

But as I think we all agree...governments job also is to make sure the laws are complied with.  When anti-trust laws are abandoned and private banks and business can 'unlevel' the playing field freedom has been taken away...and a few 'set' the market and actually dicatate what the market is.  It's called
'monopolys' and it has happend in this country and all over the world.  Government has been asleep on the job...or more accurately...turned a blind eye.  
Also,  bad trade agreements (NAFTA) imposed causes the private sector to 'cheat' and take advantage of a bad situation.  Too much government regulation can stifle business and make it move to 'friendlier' shores.

Triad...I'm not the brightest bulb in the box blink.gif I didn't really understand what you were saying about the Native Amerians and their involvement in capitalism.  Fill me in a little more ...you've got my interest up now... thumbsup.gif I will try to give you a better answer if I completely understand.

best regards,
and thanks for your post.

seax cool.gif

There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers.

Richard Feynman

#13    Virtual Particle

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 01:46 AM

Quote

Predictions based on population growth
In 1798 Thomas Malthus incorrectly predicted that population growth would outrun food supply by the mid 19th century. In 1968, Paul R. Ehrlich reprised this argument in The Population Bomb, predicting famine in the 1970s and 1980s. The dire predictions of Ehrlich and other neo-Malthusians were vigorously challenged by a number of economists, notably Julian Lincoln Simon. Agricultural research already under way, such as the green revolution, led to dramatic improvements in crop yields. Food production has kept pace with population growth, but Malthusians point out the green revolution relies heavily on petroleum-based fertilizers, and that many crops have become so genetically uniform that a crop failure would be very widespread. Food prices in the early 21st century are rising sharply on a global scale, and causing serious malnutrition to spread widely.[36]

From 1950 to 1984, as the Green Revolution transformed agriculture around the world; grain production increased by 250%. The energy for the Green Revolution was provided by fossil fuels in the form of fertilizers (natural gas), pesticides (oil), and hydrocarbon-fueled irrigation.[37] The peaking of world hydrocarbon production (Peak oil) may test Malthus and Ehrlich critics.[38][39] As of May 2008, the price of grain has been pushed up by increased farming for use in biofuels,[40] world oil prices at over $140 per barrel,[41] global population growth,[42] climate change,[43] loss of agricultural land to residential and industrial development,[44][45] and growing consumer demand in China and India[46][47]. Food riots have recently occurred in many countries across the world.[48][49][50]

The world population has grown by about four billion since the beginning of the Green Revolution and most believe that, without the Revolution, there would be greater famine and malnutrition than the UN presently documents (approximately 850 million people suffering from chronic malnutrition in 2005).[51]

Child poverty has been linked to people having children before they have the means to care for them.[52]


Rest of link


Quote

Climate Change workshop #2
Estimate the steady-state birth rate of humans on Earth
By Dr. Richard Gammon, UW Seattle
(recorded by Dr. E.J. Zita, Evergreen St. College, Olympia)
What will be the birth rate on Earth when the human population reaches steady state?
We are not experiencing Malthusian, exponential growth – it is leveling off.
The current population is about 6.6 billion people: P0 = 6.6 x 109 people, and the
.growth rate is about 100 million per year: dP/dt|0 = 108 people/year (in 2007).
The current birth rate is about 300 million people per year, and the
current death rate is about 200 million people per year.
When the human population levels off, the growth rate will be zero – that is, the birth rate
(Fluxin) will be equal to the death rate (Fluxout).
Let’s assume that the steady-state population, or “burden”, will be about 10 billion people
– about half again as many as there are now: B = 10 x 109 = 1010 people.
In steady-state, Burden = Fin * T = Fout * T where T = lifetime
If the average human life expectancy will be about T = 60 years, we can find the
steady-state birth rate (and death rate):

Steady state flux F = B / T = 1010 people / 60 years = 1/6 x 109 people/years
Steady state birth rate = death rate = 167 million people/years
This is lower than the current birth rate, which will require fewer babies per capita
and lower than the current death rate, which is good news.
Current birth rate: 300 x 106 people / year / 660 x 107 people ~ 1/20 / yr ~ 5% / yr
Steady-state birth rate: 1/6 x 109 people/yr / 1010 people ~ 1/60 / yr ~ 2% / yr
This is a reasonable goal. Proven, humane motivators for population control are:
• excellent education for women
• easily accessible health care and birth control
• social security for the elderly



One could consider that a democratic China would repeal laws allowing only one child per familiy. Also baby booms are a product of exxess. I would cite that the United States of America after World War 2 was one of the few indutrialized nations left intact. The technology we are working on in relation to, feeding ourselves could one day exceed the sum total of our needs (and then some). Such developments will probably result in more reproduction. The average is though that more children are being born per year that, that if we tranlate that over a long period of time, we still have a problem.

Any thoughts?

Edited by Triad, 09 April 2009 - 01:58 AM.

Time is a form of communication
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Matter communicates its existence
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God is more
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#14    seax

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:19 AM

Triad on Apr 9 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

Rest of link





One could consider that a democratic China would repeal laws allowing only one child per familiy. Also baby booms are a product of exxess. I would cite that the United States of America after World War 2 was one of the few indutrialized nations left intact. The technology we are working on in relation to, feeding ourselves could one day exceed the sum total of our needs (and then some). Such developments will probably result in more reproduction. The average is though that more children are being born per year that, that if we tranlate that over a long period of time, we still have a problem.

Any thoughts?


Hello Triad....

I'm not so sure China will become Democratic anytime soon..while many chinese are or have enjoyed the some of the fruits of capitalism..still the Chinese have a stranglehold on the economy and you must remember.  Their leader really care nothing about money...they feel when you are in power money is just secondary.  It is just a ray of sunshine under their umbrella.  They are not going to give it up easy...and they control the army.  

I think you are right about the US having an upper hand after WWII while Europe was rebuilding we were building cars..making faster planes...and had plenty of room on the assemby lines for GI's coming home from the war.  But if you look at it the other way....all the rebuilding in Europe created a boom there...but with a price...debt.  

There is still plenty of room and resources on this Earth..we just need to use it smarter.  We have farm land in this country not producing anything now that could grow food for people all around the world, and put a gingle in many a farmer's pocket with some good trade policies.  

Tiad...to some extent...we are lazy.  If we are going to make things work we must think smarter...work harder...and put everything in proper perspective.  We can't afford the old ways...we have to change.

best regards,
seax cool.gif

There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers.

Richard Feynman

#15    Virtual Particle

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 02:31 AM

seax on Apr 8 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

Hello Mr. Walker and Triad.....

I read both your post with interest and I think we all have  a common denominator in the subject and I think that common denominator is some government regulation and intervention over the free market.  It is my humble opinion that government....the private sector each have a part in a good..working and viable economy...but in the same sentence I will say that government can't create jobs...which fuel capitalism although government can stop economic developement and growth by trying to step into the part that should be in the realm of the private sector.  Mr. Walker...you made mention you are a teacher..which is under the realm of the government... as it should be.  You produce under the right circumstances individuals that have gotten the necessary tools to enter the private sector to produce there.  So... in essence you have a partnership of government doing what it does best helping the privated sector witht he tools it needs to compete in a market.  When done properly the wealth made in the private sector funds the government and economy to produce what we call capitalism.  Capitalism encourages freedom because...if you can build say a better computer for less money then you have done 3 things

1) produced a better product
2) at a cheaper price
3) created jobs and fuel the economy

But as I think we all agree...governments job also is to make sure the laws are complied with.  When anti-trust laws are abandoned and private banks and business can 'unlevel' the playing field freedom has been taken away...and a few 'set' the market and actually dicatate what the market is.  It's called
'monopolys' and it has happend in this country and all over the world.  Government has been asleep on the job...or more accurately...turned a blind eye.  
Also,  bad trade agreements (NAFTA) imposed causes the private sector to 'cheat' and take advantage of a bad situation.  Too much government regulation can stifle business and make it move to 'friendlier' shores.








Triad...I'm not the brightest bulb in the box blink.gif I didn't really understand what you were saying about the Native Amerians and their involvement in capitalism.  Fill me in a little more ...you've got my interest up now... thumbsup.gif I will try to give you a better answer if I completely understand.

best regards,
and thanks for your post.

seax cool.gif



Government I feel, can create the conditions which allow for the creation of jobs, examples abound. Release of classified technology to the private sector, moving military bases, generating growth through government funded programs, meant for infrastructure and so on. I can agree though that in relation to how folk are getting along (you know the ones with the black credit cards) can and does get out of hand. It is after all human nature to want more. There is nothing wrong with saying, "Hey what just happened should be illegal." In a manner of speaking the whole things is stupid, what I mean to say is that if something does not make sense it is probably a lie.

We need recourses not excuses and the reality is, that between the orbit of Mars and Jupiter there is enough Platinum to put a rings around planet Earth and make it look like Saturn. Here is the thing it is there and we do not count it?? No one else is actually claiming it and honestly the closest thing to us, in this solar system may be some fish.

seax..In Mexico they celebrate the Day of the Dead. Such an event is not a part of Christian society but rather an influence of the prior culture. There are certain things that the Masses when confronted with the need for change do not allow to be extinguished. At certain times in history this was a factor, when addressing the needs of a much larger population certain fundamental ideas are changed.

Any thoughts?

Time is a form of communication
Consciousness transcends all states
that can be perceived as matter
Matter communicates its existence
to consciousness through time        
Man is infinite
God is more
Black Hole Creates Spectacular Light Show




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