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Tell me what you think...


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#16    DC09

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 07:58 PM

This is gonna turn into another science vs religion, evolution vs creation argument isn't it?  laugh.gif  


#17    saucy

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:02 PM

I tried to post creation vs. evolution and they dropped it before it even started.  This is my way of getting by that and it worked.  Thanks guys!   whistling2.gif  


#18    Druidus

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:03 PM

QUOTE
Druidus, yes evoloution happens in viruses, and in humans. All animals change on a genetic level over time. But I believe your taking it one step too far.

One animal morphing into another animal has never EVER been proven scientifically. There is no scientific proof of speciation. And because of that other theories need to be considered, i.e.creationism.


Maybe not, but just because one theory (evolution) doesn't have proof in what it says does not mean that another is right (creationism).  Creationism has offered no proof either.  All it does is say, "well evolution has no proof, so that proves us right!".  

QUOTE
it's called adapting to your environment. Call that evolution if you want. I know for a fact that insects, animals and even humans adapt to their surrounds, but evolution is a far cry from that


Adaptations are the building blocks of evolution.  Humans are animals.  So are insects.  Both plants and animals adapt to their environment.  But what if the environment changed drastically?  Sure, most of a species might die off, but some might survive, some with the adaptations to survive.  Now what happens when it keeps changing, for the worse?  The species adapts again, and again, eventually forming a new species, through evolution.

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#19    saucy

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:06 PM

also, science says that throughout time there have been many periods where everything died out and life had to start all over again and again.  


#20    Druidus

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:18 PM

Science doesn't say all life died out periodically!  Where are you reading that from?

Wherever it is you got that it is wrong.  Science says extinctions occurred but not to the point of all life dying out!  In the beginning, when we only had self-promoting proteins we may have had a few false starts but other than that, nope.

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#21    chico del nacho

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:26 PM

QUOTE
you have a point. Maybe I just don't want to see lies (science) mixed up with the truth (creation)

verys trong words. i don't like science myself. too hard to understand for me for the most part. but i know that for the most part, it is pretty accurate. still, there are those who see science as an "organized system of ignorance."

one theory i heard is the cosmological (i think that's the right word...) argument for god's existence. basically, it proves god exists (as well as that can be done rolleyes.gif ) with a basis in cause and effect. it says god exists, or at least did at some point, by being the initial effect, which caused effects which caused effects ad infinitum. the cosmological argument says god was the effectless cause, or causeless effect, or whatever it would be.  

i still vote for social democracy. it's like communism lite! only 1/3 the calories of normal communism!
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#22    chico del nacho

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 08:28 PM

oh yeah forgot to mention. yes there were mass extinctions, they think there's been about 6, but like druidus says, not all life died out. in fact, scientist believe that we are in the begining of another mass extinction, don'tcha know.

i still vote for social democracy. it's like communism lite! only 1/3 the calories of normal communism!
whoever said "money can't buy happiness" was never poor.
I think there's something innately wrong about most people to inspire alien curiousity.
i'm so proud of this post...
Seriousness is stupidity sent to college. -P. J. O'Rourke
Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow. -Oscar Wilde

#23    Venomshocker

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 09:07 PM

QUOTE
The species adapts again, and again, eventually forming a new species, through evolution.


Adaptation yes, a new species forming, NO! Not in this current scientific world.

QUOTE
Creationism has offered no proof either. All it does is say, "well evolution has no proof, so that proves us right!".


I never offered proof for creationism. Just some good O'l reductionistic scientific evidence. This is why creationism is also a science.





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#24    SilverCougar

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 10:11 PM

QUOTE (Kellalor @ Apr 21 2004, 08:58 PM)
This is gonna turn into another science vs religion, evolution vs creation argument isn't it?  laugh.gif

*twitches*

Gods no.. please no...

These "I'm right, you're wrong" debates never end pretty...

Yes there is proof of things that happened in the bible, people did write what they see and know...  And there is proof of human existence long before the bible "dates" us, and proof of goddess/gods worship long before the bible was even writen and claimed things to have happened.

My question is: Why can't people be left to believe in what they feel is right for them?  

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#25    Druidus

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 10:59 PM

Religion by itself has never been proven.  Sorry but no.  No religion has been proven entirely.  The bible is just what people saw and tried to write down scientifically.  They saw waters disappear and create a path for the Jews, they thought it was a work of God.  In reality it could have been attributed to many things.  They saw the plagues of Egypt, said it was an act of God, in reality many things could have caused those plagues.  Please realize that I do believe in religion.  I just make a bastard religion/science crossbreed.    It helps everyone and I take the best from both sides and chuck the rest away  grin2.gif .  Science would have seen clues as to whether or not the biblical flood occurred.  There was a flood we have proven that, but the flood was definately not worldwide.  And since it wasn't I have proved a part of the bible wrong.  Why can't other parts be wrong if one is?  Men wrote it.  Men are prone to mistakes, fallacies and fiction.  All of the bible may be based of of facts but warped instead of crystal clear.  Anyways, my Gods want me to question everything, even to the point of questioning them, so I do.  They want us to be scientific and religious.  

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"Eudaemonia is not merely anarchy, but life without need."

"The most damaging phrase in the language is: "It's always been done that way."

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#26    SilverCougar

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 11:16 PM

I didn't say the religons were proven, just proven to have existed.. as in proven that people believed.   The only right or wrong should be left up to the indavidual person.  Not forced onto them in mass.

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#27    Venomshocker

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 12:09 AM

Druidus
QUOTE
Science would have seen clues as to whether or not the biblical flood occurred. There was a flood we have proven that, but the flood was definately not worldwide. And since it wasn't I have proved a part of the bible wrong.

There was a worldwide flood. So no, you HAVENT proved the bible wrong.
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=14929



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#28    Druidus

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 12:21 AM

760 B.C.?  I'm not going to even dignify that by writing all the evidence about it.  That's way to close to now.  It would be remembered in more books than the bible.  LOL!

~~~Official Giver of Fishysticks~~~

"Anarchy is not chaos, but order without control."  

"Eudaemonia is not merely anarchy, but life without need."

"The most damaging phrase in the language is: "It's always been done that way."

My Psionics forum -  http://s7.invisionfr...dex.php?act=idx

#29    Venomshocker

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 02:13 AM

Budy are you blind??? Its 7640 B.C..

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#30    aquatus1

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Posted 22 April 2004 - 02:25 AM

Science is a process.  Science is a methodology used to evaluate and analyze data.  Part of this process is the formation of a theory.  A theory has to be capable of explaining the existing data and either offering the possibility to replicate or predict what its effect will be.  An essential factor of this process is falsifiability.  In order to avoid self-deception, every theory must have a method allowing it to be proven incorrect.  It must also be verified by peer-review.  This means that a credible panel of people educated in a particular topic must agree that the data, controversial or otherwise, is nonetheless valid.  Occam's Razor is a proven standard.  In the vast majority of cases, the simplest solution has been proven to be the correct one.

Self-correction is inherent.  Data is not static; it grows and changes with further research.  Theories must be able to explain the new data as well as the old.  If the theory does not explain the data, the theory must change.  And many, many theories have changed with the advent of new information.

The reason why I cannot consider creationism a theory is because there is no central theory which can be used to evaluate and analyze data; at best, the general argument can be summed up as "God did it."  There is no way to predict any event; how guaranteed is a prayer?  There is no falsifiability; if a prayer fails, it's because God knows best.  And there is little consensus with peer-review; how many different Judeo-Christian variations are there?  Occam's Razor need not apply.  "God did it" is certainly simpler to say, but is hardly a simpler explanation.

Most importantly, there is no self-correction.  If the data that we have does not fit the creationist theory, no creationist will admit that the theory is incorrect.  The only option left is to change the data to fit the theory.

Creationism is a postulate.  It is a statement of belief and faith.   There is no requirement in the bible for scientific verification of God.  There is no need for independent non-bias verification.  In short, there is no need to call it a science.





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