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Egyptians in the Grand Canyon


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#16    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 11:39 PM

kmt_sesh, you're obviously knowledgeable but your argument doesn't quite answer the question. The absence of Egyptian records of the New World doesn't mean that Egyptians never reached it, only that they never returned. I know of  no evidence they did reach the Americas and you make some good points as to why they wouldn't have, but a lack of records in Egypt doesn't prove they didn't.


#17    cormac mac airt

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 11:58 PM

PersonFromPorlock on May 23 2009, 06:39 PM, said:

kmt_sesh, you're obviously knowledgeable but your argument doesn't quite answer the question. The absence of Egyptian records of the New World doesn't mean that Egyptians never reached it, only that they never returned. I know of no evidence they did reach the Americas and you make some good points as to why they wouldn't have, but a lack of records in Egypt doesn't prove they didn't.



By the same token using your own counter-argument, the absence of human records of a trip to Alpha Centauri doesn't mean that we never reached it, even though it's 99.99 (carry that as far as you want) percent unlikely to even be worth mentioning in regards to human history and accomplishments. That argument swings both ways.

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#18    kmt_sesh

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 04:27 AM

PersonFromPorlock on May 23 2009, 06:39 PM, said:

kmt_sesh, you're obviously knowledgeable but your argument doesn't quite answer the question. The absence of Egyptian records of the New World doesn't mean that Egyptians never reached it, only that they never returned. I know of  no evidence they did reach the Americas and you make some good points as to why they wouldn't have, but a lack of records in Egypt doesn't prove they didn't.


You bring up a legitimate point, PersonFromPorlock, and one that bears a response from me. So for the sake of argument, let's imagine that somehow an Egyptian vessel survived a transatlantic voyage and beached in the Western Hemisphere. LOL I'm chuckling as I type this because it sounds so ridiculous, but I'm willing to play devil's advocate for a moment. We can say this Egyptian vessel was somehow blown off course from the Mediterranean--which is also extremely unlikely, but let's go with that.

It still bears emphasizing that there is no evidence of an Egyptian-based culture anywhere in the Western Hemisphere. If an Egyptian vessel ended up somewhere in this part of the world, it left no trace whatsoever. That's the more likely scenario, anyway. It's not realistic to expect that a single Egyptian vessel (or two or three) and its occupants would've had any lasting effect on the native populations they encountered.

Therefore, attempting to state that Egyptians ended up in the Western Hemisphere is neither an hypothesis nor a theory. It is merely speculation. It cannot be corroborated by any evidence, direct or indirect.

That brings us back to the OP and the charge that Egyptians left traces in the Grand Canyon. Why stranded Egyptians would've ventured so far inland to the Grand Canyon and left evidence only there, very much strains the limits of rationality and reality. In fact, it's amusingly unrealistic to suggest.

I tried to find out more information about this on the web but came up with nothing but the usual assortment of fringe writing, which is long on speculation and completely empty on scientific and historic value. A common tactic with this story is to claim a cover-up by orthodoxy, which is a typical, juvenile tactic of fringe adherents. One web page put it this way:

Quote

Is the idea that ancient Egyptians came to the Arizona area in the ancient past so objectionable and preposterous that it must be covered up? Perhaps the Smithsonian Institution is more interested in maintaining the status quo than rocking the boat with astonishing new discoveries that overturn previously accepted academic teachings.


Writers such as the individual who wrote this demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of how historical research is conducted, and the value it has for us all. It is further absolutely ludicrous to suggest the Smithsonian would rather bury evidence than work with it. This is a sad copout on the part of fringe writers: they cannot offer anything that resembles evidence, so they resort to defaming an institute whose very existence is based on learning.

I also tried to find some kind of photography to corroborate the claims in the original post. I found nothing of value. Photographs of burial artifacts and tomb preparation would be very strong evidence indeed of an Egyptian presence, because perhaps more than any other culture before or since, ancient Egypt developed burial practices and rituals of clear distinction. The lack of photographs to corroborate the premise is another tactic of fringe writers. The only useful photo I could find is this one. LOL It proves nothing whatsoever.

This is where I'm coming from. Concocted accounts from 100 years ago do not establish credibility. If someone can offer photographic evidence of things found in these elusive tombs, I'd be more than happy to see them so I could evaluate their validity. I could find nothing. As one of the fringe web pages admits, in sharing a quote from a Smithsonian archaeologist:

Quote

"Well, the first thing I can tell you, before we go any further...is that no Egyptian artefacts of any kind have ever been found in North or South America. Therefore, I can tell you that the Smithsonian Institute has never been involved in any such excavations."


That should've ended it right there, but no. Let's not trust the word of a trained expert. She works for a world-class institution of science and history, a part of the establishment--eek!--so she must be lying! laugh.gif

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#19    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 08:34 AM

kmt_sesh, I'm not disagreeing although I will say that 'an Egyptian' and 'an Egyptian vessel' aren't the same thing: we can speculate that an Egyptian on a Phonecian vessel might have reached the Americas, for instance, even if Egyptian watercraft were incapable of the journey. And that famous Olmec head with African features argues that there was some crossing of the Atlantic. But absent evidence it is, as you say, just speculation.


#20    jesspy

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 08:46 AM


They aren't getting confused with Mayan/aztec stuff are they? Could they have come  up that far? How would the Egyptians get there anyway?



Bosanchero on May 22 2009, 09:54 AM, said:

(Bosanchero walks up from the pits of hell) = havent been on UM in like 2 years lol



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#21    kmt_sesh

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Posted 24 May 2009 - 11:03 PM

jesspy on May 24 2009, 03:46 AM, said:

They aren't getting confused with Mayan/aztec stuff are they? Could they have come  up that far? How would the Egyptians get there anyway?


I am not as well versed with the pre-columbian cultures as I am with those of the Near East, but people with a less than sound grounding in historical studies often do try to tie in peoples like the Maya or Aztec with the ancient Egyptians. There are no connections, of course. The pre-columbian cultures are completely different and distinct from ancient Egypt. Just because all of these people built pyramids or pyramid-like structures does not mean anything of consequence. In the ancient world, the only way to construct a very large building was to make it big at the bottom and taper toward the top--hence, the plethora of pyramid-like structures around the world.

Very important to bear in mind is the simple fact that by the time the Maya and Aztecs were thriving as full-blown civilizations, the civilization of ancient Egypt had already sunk into history. The timeline alone argues completely against such connections.

PersonFromPorlock mentioned the famous Olmec heads. People often bring up these artifacts when trying to search out connections. I for one do not see a meaningful connection with African cultures by these heads alone, but what's significant is to guard against what something happens to "look like" when making connections. Ancient artwork is not that simple. The Olmecs were one of the oldest of the pre-columbian cultures, which might lend some credence to the idea, but the colossal heads don't prove anything.


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#22    Total Science

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 10:36 AM

kmt_sesh on May 21 2009, 09:43 PM, said:

frankly, when viewed scientifically, it's most unlikely to have been contemporary to when these mummified people had been alive.

Nature and history are full of all sorts of unlikely surprises which are nevertheless true.

Quote

The amounts are at most trace

There are people rotting in jail right now for far lesser amounts...rolleyes.gif

"Apart from an ongoing investigation of hallucinogenic drugs in ancient societies, this preliminary study reports the identification of cocaine, hashish, and nicotine in Egpytian mummies. We took samples of soft tissue, bone, and hair from nine mummies. Drugs were detected by radioimmunoassay and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry." -- Svelta Balabanova, forensic toxicologist, et al., Aug 1992

"Data are presented on the biochemical findings in several intermal organs from an Egyptian mummy with a 14C-dating of approximately 950 B.C. By use of radio immunoassay systems and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, significant amounts of various drugs were detected in internal organs (lung, liver, stomach, intestines) as well as in hair, bone, skin/muscle and tendon. These analyses revealed a significant deposition of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), nicotine (and its metabolite cotinine) and cocaine in the tissue from the mummy." -- Franz Parsche, anthropologist, and Andreas Nerlich, pathologist, 1995


Quote

and a much more realistic explanation is contamination.  These mummies (there's more than one that was tested) had been handled by any number of Europeans, and cocaine had long been a popular drug in Europe.

LOL.  No.

"The first thing you think of is that this is just mad. It's wrong. There's contamination present. Maybe there's a fraud present of some kind. You don't think that cocaine can be present in an Egyptian mummy." -- John Henry, toxicologist, 1996

"I continued to work on it [cocaine mummies] because I wanted to be sure of my results, and after 3000 samples, I was absolutely certain that the tobacco plant was known in Europe and Africa long before Columbus." -- Svelta Balabanova, forensic toxicologist, 1996

Corliss, J.R., Rameses II Hooked On Tobacco, Science Frontiers, Number 7, June 1979
Balabanova, S., Parsche, S., and Pirsig, W., First Identification of Drugs in Egyptian Mummies, Naturwissenschaften, Volume 79, Number 8, Page 358, Aug 1992
Balabanova, S., Teschler-Nicola, M., Strouhal, E., Evidence of Nicotine in Scalp Hair of Naturally Mummified Bodies From the Christian Sayala (Egyptian-Nubian), Anthropologischer Anzeiger; Bericht über die Biologisch-Anthropologische Literatur, Volume 52, Number 2, Pages 167-173, Jun 1994
Corliss, J.R., Evidence of Tobacco In Ancient Egypt, Science Frontiers, Number 95, Sep-Oct 1994
Parsche, F., and Nerlich, A., Presence of Drugs In Different Tissues of an Egyptian Mummy, Ferensius' Journal of Analytical Chemistry, Volume 352, Number 3-4, Pages 380-384, Jan 1995
Corliss, J.R., Tobacco and Cocaine In Ancient Egypt, Science Frontiers, Number 111, May-Jun 1997
Flem-Ath, R., The Curse of the Cocaine Mummies, Esolibris, 1997

Edited by Total Science, 14 June 2009 - 10:42 AM.


#23    Leonardo

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:05 PM

Total Science on Jun 14 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

Nature and history are full of all sorts of unlikely surprises which are nevertheless true.


There are people rotting in jail right now for far lesser amounts...rolleyes.gif

"Apart from an ongoing investigation of hallucinogenic drugs in ancient societies, this preliminary study reports the identification of cocaine, hashish, and nicotine in Egpytian mummies. We took samples of soft tissue, bone, and hair from nine mummies. Drugs were detected by radioimmunoassay and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry." -- Svelta Balabanova, forensic toxicologist, et al., Aug 1992

"Data are presented on the biochemical findings in several intermal organs from an Egyptian mummy with a 14C-dating of approximately 950 B.C. By use of radio immunoassay systems and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, significant amounts of various drugs were detected in internal organs (lung, liver, stomach, intestines) as well as in hair, bone, skin/muscle and tendon. These analyses revealed a significant deposition of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), nicotine (and its metabolite cotinine) and cocaine in the tissue from the mummy." -- Franz Parsche, anthropologist, and Andreas Nerlich, pathologist, 1995



LOL.  No.

"The first thing you think of is that this is just mad. It's wrong. There's contamination present. Maybe there's a fraud present of some kind. You don't think that cocaine can be present in an Egyptian mummy." -- John Henry, toxicologist, 1996

"I continued to work on it [cocaine mummies] because I wanted to be sure of my results, and after 3000 samples, I was absolutely certain that the tobacco plant was known in Europe and Africa long before Columbus." -- Svelta Balabanova, forensic toxicologist, 1996

Corliss, J.R., Rameses II Hooked On Tobacco, Science Frontiers, Number 7, June 1979
Balabanova, S., Parsche, S., and Pirsig, W., First Identification of Drugs in Egyptian Mummies, Naturwissenschaften, Volume 79, Number 8, Page 358, Aug 1992
Balabanova, S., Teschler-Nicola, M., Strouhal, E., Evidence of Nicotine in Scalp Hair of Naturally Mummified Bodies From the Christian Sayala (Egyptian-Nubian), Anthropologischer Anzeiger; Bericht über die Biologisch-Anthropologische Literatur, Volume 52, Number 2, Pages 167-173, Jun 1994
Corliss, J.R., Evidence of Tobacco In Ancient Egypt, Science Frontiers, Number 95, Sep-Oct 1994
Parsche, F., and Nerlich, A., Presence of Drugs In Different Tissues of an Egyptian Mummy, Ferensius' Journal of Analytical Chemistry, Volume 352, Number 3-4, Pages 380-384, Jan 1995
Corliss, J.R., Tobacco and Cocaine In Ancient Egypt, Science Frontiers, Number 111, May-Jun 1997
Flem-Ath, R., The Curse of the Cocaine Mummies, Esolibris, 1997


None of which points to the presence of Egyptians in the New World.

Even if there is no longer a native source of nicotine and a cocaine-type alkaloid available from any of the plants of those genera in the Old World (and it is debatable there isn't), the discovery of silk in Egypt at around 1000BCE indicates that trade was happening throughout Eastern North Africa/Europe and Asia. It is also known that various species of the Erythroxylaceae family are native to tropical Africa and Asia. Studies indicate that many of these plants contain the same sort of alkaloids (tropane alkaloids) that cocaine is and many have narcotic qualities which are similar.

The lack of any corroborating evidence of contact between the Old and New World (no trade items from one appearing in the other) would indicate the source of the nicotine and cocaine/alkaloid was sourced from somewhere the Egyptians already had trade links to, and the obvious answer(s) to this are Southern (sub-Saharan) Africa and East Asia.

Edited by Leonardo, 14 June 2009 - 02:06 PM.

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#24    questionmark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:19 PM

Leonardo on Jun 14 2009, 05:05 PM, said:

None of which points to the presence of Egyptians in the New World.

Even if there is no longer a native source of nicotine and a cocaine-type alkaloid available from any of the plants of those genera in the Old World (and it is debatable there isn't), the discovery of silk in Egypt at around 1000BCE indicates that trade was happening throughout Eastern North Africa/Europe and Asia. It is also known that various species of the Erythroxylaceae family are native to tropical Africa and Asia. Studies indicate that many of these plants contain the same sort of alkaloids (tropane alkaloids) that cocaine is and many have narcotic qualities which are similar.

The lack of any corroborating evidence of contact between the Old and New World (no trade items from one appearing in the other) would indicate the source of the nicotine and cocaine/alkaloid was sourced from somewhere the Egyptians already had trade links to, and the obvious answer(s) to this are Southern (sub-Saharan) Africa and East Asia.


I bow to your sharp analysis, if I may add, there is also a variety of solanaceae and solanum species in Asia and Africa that contain significant amounts of alkaloids, most of them nicotine. No need to go to America to obtain them. The only "new" idea that came from America with tobacco is that one could smoke it to ingest nicotine.

Edited by questionmark, 14 June 2009 - 02:20 PM.

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#25    555soul

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:31 PM

kmt_sesh on May 21 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

I can assure you with unwavering confidence that this is not true. Despite what alternative theorists have tried to argue in the past at UM, there is not the slightest evidence of any kind that Egyptians ever reached the Western Hemisphere. I can assure you of that. But what's my word, eh? You can research it for yourself--in legitimate literature written by experts, of course. There is not one iota of evidence existing in any ancient Egyptian record or artifact that even suggests their knowledge of the Western Hemisphere. Rather, we have a solid understanding of the extent to the world the Egyptians did know, and it certainly did not include any lands across the ocean.

Cocaine residue was discovered in pottery vessels within Egyptian tombs.  This fact is suppressed from popular culture reporting.  This information would disclose the nature of the world in the past.

The Egyptian Empire was a trading Empire.


Here is an interesting book for one who is interested - America B.C.

America B.C. details the global historical artefacts discovered in America.  There were people living in Ohio 13,000 years ago.  In that time, there have been many travels.

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#26    555soul

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:32 PM

http://www.amazon.com/America-B-C-Ancient-...s/dp/0934666555

America B.C.

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#27    questionmark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:58 PM

555soul on Jun 14 2009, 05:31 PM, said:

Cocaine residue was discovered in pottery vessels within Egyptian tombs.  This fact is suppressed from popular culture reporting.  This information would disclose the nature of the world in the past.

The Egyptian Empire was a trading Empire.


Here is an interesting book for one who is interested - America B.C.

America B.C. details the global historical artefacts discovered in America.  There were people living in Ohio 13,000 years ago.  In that time, there have been many travels.


Cocaine residue or an tropane alkaloid residue that could have been from any of a dozen sources, such as from atropa belladona, a medicinal plant well known to the Egyptians?

And before you scream Cocaine get familiar with the tropane alkaloid chemistry...you will notice that there is no way to pinpoint a certain alkaloid after 3000 years of sitting in a jar, in fact after a dozen years there is no way to pinpoint it.




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#28    Mattshark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 03:26 PM

555soul on Jun 14 2009, 03:32 PM, said:


What makes you think that a man who studies starfish is a good source for accurate history?

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#29    555soul

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 03:53 PM

questionmark on Jun 14 2009, 10:58 AM, said:

Cocaine residue or an tropane alkaloid residue that could have been from any of a dozen sources, such as from atropa belladona, a medicinal plant well known to the Egyptians?

And before you scream Cocaine get familiar with the tropane alkaloid chemistry...you will notice that there is no way to pinpoint a certain alkaloid after 3000 years of sitting in a jar, in fact after a dozen years there is no way to pinpoint it.

Good point.  That leaves the option of the residue being American in origin.  Afterall, after a dozen years, there is no way to pinpoint it.

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#30    Dayne

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 03:56 PM

It's interesting that nobody mentioned the possibility of plundered and smuggled Egytpian artifacts that were a common practice in the 19th century being stashed in some natural cave in the canyon.  It is possible there were artifacts at one time that were discovered and subsequently relocated into someone's private museum.  This seems the most likely scenario to me.





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