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Egyptians in the Grand Canyon


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#91    questionmark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:04 PM

Total Science on Jun 15 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

That's because you ignored it the first time: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=2932520



Why don't you believe in the evidence?

Do you believe in drug tests?

Do you believe in radioimmunoassay and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry?

Do you believe in science?



Before you start spouting off with another side road I want to know if you know what the **** you are talking about...because so far all I can see is some kind of drug induced crap.

So, I know that gas chromatography and mass spectrometry  are accurate applications, what I don't know is if you know what they actually do. And btw..the "cocaine evidence" you refer to were obtained by reliable science, you just don't seem to understand how it works.




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#92    Mattshark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:07 PM

Total Science on Jun 14 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Why don't you believe in the evidence?

Do you believe in drug tests?

Do you believe in radioimmunoassay and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry?

Do you believe in science?

As someone who almost certainly has more qualifications in science than you, no I don't believe in science. Science is a method study, it does not require belief.

Neither drug tests or chemical tests give evidence of origin. Again Cocaine was not refined from the coca leaf till the 19th century. Your approach is the unscientific one. You leap to conclusions.

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#93    Total Science

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:10 PM

questionmark on Jun 14 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

Before you start spouting off with another side road I want to know if you know what the **** you are talking about...because so far all I can see is some kind of drug induced crap.

It seems to me you don't care what I'm talking about because if you did you would bother to read my posts.

Quote

So, I know that gas chromatography and mass spectrometry  are accurate applications

Glad we're on the same page.  So if they are accurate, then ancient Egyptians as a society were using tobacco and cocaine.

Quote

what I don't know is if you know what they actually do.

They test for drugs in human tissue.

Quote

And btw..the "cocaine evidence" you refer to were obtained by reliable science

I know.  That's my point.  Why would I post a source that's unreliable?

Quote

you just don't seem to understand how it works.

Since you're into mythology websites and unreliable sources, here's Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry




#94    Total Science

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:13 PM

Mattshark on Jun 14 2009, 05:07 PM, said:

As someone who almost certainly has more qualifications in science than you, no I don't believe in science. Science is a method study, it does not require belief.

If science doesn't require belief, then why don't you believe in it?

Quote

Neither drug tests or chemical tests give evidence of origin.

What gives evidence of origin?

Does anything give evidence of origin?

What evidence do you have that suggests an Old World origin for tobacco and cocaine in Egyptian mummies?

Quote

Again Cocaine was not refined from the coca leaf till the 19th century.

B.C.?  No.  Cocaine at Caral Peru dates from at least 3000 B.C.

Quote

Your approach is the unscientific one. You leap to conclusions.

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Edited by Total Science, 14 June 2009 - 09:14 PM.


#95    Leonardo

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:19 PM

Total Science on Jun 14 2009, 09:57 PM, said:

You've obviously never read the Timaeus as Sonchis is not mentioned by name there.  Sonchis is only mentioned by in Plutarch.  Know your history.



I am only responding to this because you have accused me of dishonesty, Two Socks.

Sonchis is not mentioned by name in Timaeus, true, but there is no doubt that Plutarch's Sonchis of Sais - the wisest Priest of Egyptian antiquity and the one who related the story of Atlantis - is the same 'old priest' in Timaeus who related the story of Atlantis. Thus Plato is the source for Plutarch's (and others) Sonchis of Sais. That he is named in Plutarch's Life of Solon and not Timaeus is irrelevant.

I'll thank you to not try to suggest I am dishonest by twisting the facts to present such a thing, and I'd thank you even more if you would actually post those poems that mention Sonchis - the poems of Solon, Dropides etc, that you stated do mention that figure.

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#96    KRS-One

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:19 PM

Total Science on Jun 14 2009, 04:13 PM, said:

B.C.?  No.  Cocaine at Caral Peru dates from at least 3000 B.C.


Peru is not in Africa.  
If you're like to show something that shows evidence of trade routes between Peru and Africa several milllenia BC, please do so.


#97    Mattshark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:27 PM

Total Science on Jun 14 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

If science doesn't require belief, then why don't you believe in it?

Do you believe in tables or do you know they exist?

Quote

What gives evidence of origin?

Does anything give evidence of origin?

What evidence do you have that suggests an Old World origin for tobacco and cocaine in Egyptian mummies?

Contamination, far more likely.


Quote

B.C.?  No.  Cocaine at Caral Peru dates from at least 3000 B.C.

Coca, not cocaine. Ground coca leaves mixed with lime.


Quote

I'm rubber; you're glue.

Really, well I understand science and you do not.

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#98    Total Science

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:27 PM

KRS-One on Jun 14 2009, 05:19 PM, said:

Peru is not in Africa.

Brilliant.


#99    Total Science

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:32 PM

Mattshark on Jun 14 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

Contamination, far more likely.

Typical knee-jerk response from someone who's never examined the scientific evidence.

"French scientists examining the stomach of the Egyptian Pharaoh Rameses II found fragments of tobacco leaves. Further analysis of the 3,200-year-old mummy indicated the presence of nicotine in the body. Conventional wisdom has it that tobacco was unknown in the Old World until the Spanish brought it back from the Americas in the Sixteenth Century." -- William R. Corliss, physicist, 1979

"Apart from an ongoing investigation of hallucinogenic drugs in ancient societies, this preliminary study reports the identification of cocaine, hashish, and nicotine in Egpytian mummies. We took samples of soft tissue, bone, and hair from nine mummies. Drugs were detected by radioimmunoassay and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry." -- Svelta Balabanova, forensic toxicologist, et al., Aug 1992

"Data are presented on the biochemical findings in several intermal organs from an Egyptian mummy with a 14C-dating of approximately 950 B.C. By use of radio immunoassay systems and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, significant amounts of various drugs were detected in internal organs (lung, liver, stomach, intestines) as well as in hair, bone, skin/muscle and tendon. These analyses revealed a significant deposition of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), nicotine (and its metabolite cotinine) and cocaine in the tissue from the mummy." -- Franz Parsche, anthropologist, and Andreas Nerlich, pathologist, 1995

"The first thing you think of is that this is just mad. It's wrong. There's contamination present. Maybe there's a fraud present of some kind. You don't think that cocaine can be present in an Egyptian mummy." -- John Henry, toxicologist, 1996

"I continued to work on it [cocaine mummies] because I wanted to be sure of my results, and after 3000 samples, I was absolutely certain that the tobacco plant was known in Europe and Africa long before Columbus." -- Svelta Balabanova, forensic toxicologist, 1996

Edited by Total Science, 14 June 2009 - 09:34 PM.


#100    KRS-One

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:32 PM

Total Science on Jun 14 2009, 04:27 PM, said:

Brilliant.

And?  Something to add to this?  
Why don't you believe in Geography?



#101    Mattshark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:38 PM

Total Science on Jun 14 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

Typical knee-jerk response from someone who's never examined the scientific evidence.

"French scientists examining the stomach of the Egyptian Pharaoh Rameses II found fragments of tobacco leaves. Further analysis of the 3,200-year-old mummy indicated the presence of nicotine in the body. Conventional wisdom has it that tobacco was unknown in the Old World until the Spanish brought it back from the Americas in the Sixteenth Century." -- William R. Corliss, physicist, 1979

"Apart from an ongoing investigation of hallucinogenic drugs in ancient societies, this preliminary study reports the identification of cocaine, hashish, and nicotine in Egpytian mummies. We took samples of soft tissue, bone, and hair from nine mummies. Drugs were detected by radioimmunoassay and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry." -- Svelta Balabanova, forensic toxicologist, et al., Aug 1992

"Data are presented on the biochemical findings in several intermal organs from an Egyptian mummy with a 14C-dating of approximately 950 B.C. By use of radio immunoassay systems and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry, significant amounts of various drugs were detected in internal organs (lung, liver, stomach, intestines) as well as in hair, bone, skin/muscle and tendon. These analyses revealed a significant deposition of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), nicotine (and its metabolite cotinine) and cocaine in the tissue from the mummy." -- Franz Parsche, anthropologist, and Andreas Nerlich, pathologist, 1995

"The first thing you think of is that this is just mad. It's wrong. There's contamination present. Maybe there's a fraud present of some kind. You don't think that cocaine can be present in an Egyptian mummy." -- John Henry, toxicologist, 1996

"I continued to work on it [cocaine mummies] because I wanted to be sure of my results, and after 3000 samples, I was absolutely certain that the tobacco plant was known in Europe and Africa long before Columbus." -- Svelta Balabanova, forensic toxicologist, 1996


Obsessed with Corlis aren't you.

"Contamination is a viable explanation" -- Mathew Clough, Animal Behaviourist, 2009.

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#102    Total Science

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:40 PM

Mattshark on Jun 14 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

Obsessed with Corlis aren't you.

I like science.

Quote

"Contamination is a viable explanation" -- Mathew Clough, Animal Behaviourist, 2009.

That argument doen't work in a court of law.

3000 contaminated mummies in a row.  Interesting...rolleyes.gif

Edited by Total Science, 14 June 2009 - 09:43 PM.


#103    Mattshark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:49 PM

Total Science on Jun 14 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

I like science.


That argument doen't work in a court of law.

3000 contaminated mummies in a row.  Interesting...rolleyes.gif

Really, then why do you abuse it (like calling Darwin mythology no.gif)

No nor does very limited evidence when plants outside of the Americas also contain these drugs.

Analysis of cocaine mummies.

Edited by Mattshark, 14 June 2009 - 09:51 PM.

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#104    questionmark

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:53 PM

Total Science on Jun 15 2009, 12:10 AM, said:

It seems to me you don't care what I'm talking about because if you did you would bother to read my posts.


Glad we're on the same page.  So if they are accurate, then ancient Egyptians as a society were using tobacco and cocaine.


They test for drugs in human tissue.


I know.  That's my point.  Why would I post a source that's unreliable?


Since you're into mythology websites and unreliable sources, here's Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry


See...besides googling you don't understand a ****. In fact I can bet you did not even read the articles, and if you read them you did not comprehend anything.

Both of the above methods show the chemical composition of unknown substances, in our case ten parts of Carbon, fourteen parts of Hydrogen and two parts of Nitrogen.

The problem is that it applies to half a dozen other alkaloids too... the only difference is that the molecules are in a slightly different order. Which cannot be determined by any of the above methods but only with chemical testing. To do that you need more than a residue.

Now you scream but I am right...well still not because you see...we are talking organic chemistry here...and organic compounds have that bad habit of decomposing... so all we have left is a chemical residue. No evidence left if it was nicotine or lets say alstophylline ....  which...by coincidence is contained in the Alstonia angustifolia, an Asian plant to which the Egyptians would have easier access then to tobacco.

Even if it was nicotine, all nightshade plants (Solanaceae) contain nicotine, that includes atropa belladona (easily obtainable for the Egyptians) among 500 other species that grow in Europe and Asia. So, you either come with a picture of an ancient Egyptian in America (and not the photoshopped helicopter) or you don't have a case...only hot air.

Oh yes, we would accept a stela that seez here is where we landed, or a port ... just like the Egyptians did in Africa



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#105    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 10:01 PM

There is one big problem with all these Pre-Columbus New World-Old World contact stories:

In the whole of the Americas only a handful of animals were domesticated and there was a much smaller genetic diversity in the population. Because of this, a 100 years after Columbus's arrival, 90% of all the natives were dead, most of them even before encountering Europeans due to the diseases (especially smallpox) they brought over. In the case of any prior, sustained contact (that's needed for the supposed exchange of ideas and goods) with the inhabitants of the Old World, the same thing would have happened and we see absolutely no sign of such a depopulation before 1492, nor of the immunity to the diseases developed by the survivors.

And those mummies, there are other sources of nicotine and cocaine then tobacco and coca, that were widely available outside the Americas. Not to mention the fact that in the 19th century, most insecticides were made from tobacco.

Edited by Clobhair-cean, 14 June 2009 - 10:02 PM.





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