[ravergirl]

Okay, so this really doesn't have much to do with the tapestry at all. Ever since I saw the season five finale I have bee rolling this theory around seeing how it feels. I have typed it out twice but when I clicked post I had been typing for so long I got signed out..and it deleted it. So here i attempt 3.

I would like to start by saying that I don't believe that Jacob is a good guy, and I don't think that the guy in black is Smokey. I don't think the man in black is bound to the cabin. Ashes or salt or brick surrounding an area in wiccan or voodoo practice is meant to keep things out not really keep them in.

This is the dialogue between the two guys at the start of the episode.

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Jacob: I take it your here because of the ship

This says to me that the man in black, henceforth refered to as Esau (I don't think thats going to be his name) knew that the ship was coming on that day, not that he saw it from the jungle. The only way for him to know this would be if both of them were observing a time loop multiple times. Matter of fact up until the ship is on the horizon Jacob was contentedly weaving a tapestry, he then comes out and fixes himself a fish, just in time for dinner and a show, eh?

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Esau: I am. How did they find the island?


Jacob: You'll have to ask them when they get here.

Esau: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. You're trying to prove me wrong aren't you?

The above 3 statements are odd to me. Esau asks a question he thinks he knows the answer to in blaming Jacob for purposefully bringing them there. Jacob deflects in classic Ben Linus fashion?? I don't think Jacob brings people to the Isalnd. I am going on a timeloop tangent here.

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Jacob: You are wrong.

But about what is Jacob trying to prove Esau wrong?

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Esau: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.

Oh. There it is. Timeloop clue. Which "they" do they mean. I think that 'they' is refering directly to the Dharma initive vs others vs Losties/tailies. We know that the Black Rock is a Slave ship and that a bunch of people die in their chains. Perhaps the others are decendents of the people of the Black Rock. That would explain why the loop starts sometime before the Black Rock lands/crashes.

Esau shows empathy in his facial expression and in his words for the people that this loop effects. Their cyclic appearance on the Island, their actions, their demise, and the restart.

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Jacob: It can only end once. Anything that happens before that....is just progress.

Wow. That's so calloused. We are dealing with genoocide, death, live, love, and bombs here.

Let me pause here and answer the question I posed before. I think I know what Jacob is trying to prove Esau wrong about.
I think that Jacob does represent (maybe only supports) free will. He is content to watch this loop of tragedy until the people (read: the human variable according to Danial Faraday) involved choose to go down a different path. Altering their own set future, thus altering their past, and thus breaking the time loop.
Esau doesn't think that humans can alter their path, he represents destiny. He has seen over and over and over that those people put in the same situation will make the same choices.

Jacob could intervene because he represents free will, but doesn't because he chooses to let it repeat. He can leave the Island.

Esau wants to intervene but can't bacause he represents destiny. He is bound to the Island.

----Long pause-----

Esau: Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?

Jacob: Yes

Esau: One of these days, sooner or later, I'm going to find a loophole my friend.

Jacob: Well when you do, I'll be right here.

Esau: Always nice talking to you Jacob.

Jacob: Always nice talking to you too

.

I don't think this loophole has anything to do with killing Jacob. IMO Esau is waiting until the opportunity presents itself for someone to make a different choice. He has to keep to the timeline and the people and he can't physically touch or interfere with a living person. (Locke is dead and fair game) I think that he 'killed' Jacob to prove to him that he found the loophole that he was looking for to unloop the timeline. Something that Ben had previously not done on the other loops he got him to do using suggestion.

He doesn't prove Jacob wrong, he proves Jacob right. Which is why I think that Jacob was so peaceful in talking to Ben.

Also, when Jacob touched the losties, he presented them with a clear choice. I think he was hoping that they would break the loop. But none of them would choose that path.

Grey. It's my color of the day.

Not Black not White....Grey......Please gve me some feedback!!

[BlindMessiah]

I think you're sniffing down the wrong path. I don't think the entire show is going to come down to a time loop. I think their disagreement is over the destructive or creative power of mankind. Jacob is perfectly willingly to watch us kill and destroy until we finally get it right whereas the man in black wishes to purify the island of human corruption.

[ravergirl]

BlindMessiah on May 27 2009, 03:46 PM, said:

I think you're sniffing down the wrong path. I don't think the entire show is going to come down to a time loop. I think their disagreement is over the destructive or creative power of mankind. Jacob is perfectly willingly to watch us kill and destroy until we finally get it right whereas the man in black wishes to purify the island of human corruption.

Yeah. I know. I have been reading a lot of theories on The Fuselage. It's actually a site sponsered by JJ. Just recently started thinking about parallel universes. This is just one theory I had, not solid on it.

One thing thats being talked about rather fervently and has been addressed by Gregg Nations (in non answer form with cloudy hints) is the fact that they took off a 4:16 in Sydney and flew for 6 hours the radios went out and they headed back towards Figi and by the time they crashed were a thousand miles off course and in broad daylight. (plus Ana Lucia said they were in the air for 2 hours)

By the way. I think that is completely awesome that I am not the only person that has a funky view of Jacob. Most people are exhalting him and I think he is hinky.

This post has been edited by ravergirl: 29 May 2009 - 02:24 PM

[BlindMessiah]

ravergirl on May 29 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Yeah. I know. I have been reading a lot of theories on The Fuselage. It's actually a site sponsered by JJ. Just recently started thinking about parallel universes. This is just one theory I had, not solid on it.

One thing thats being talked about rather fervently and has been addressed by Gregg Nations (in non answer form with cloudy hints) is the fact that they took off a 4:16 in Sydney and flew for 6 hours the radios went out and they headed back towards Figi and by the time they crashed were a thousand miles off course and in broad daylight. (plus Ana Lucia said they were in the air for 2 hours)

By the way. I think that is completely awesome that I am not the only person that has a funky view of Jacob. Most people are exhalting him and I think he is hinky.

I'm not saying Jacob is the villain though. I don't think its going to be so cut and dry. It's like in politics. You have many parties, and there are supporters of each, but the answers to the issues are rarely as simple as each side would like for you to think. I do think Jacob is the "light" side, or RA, in my theory, while man in dark is Anubis, but I don't think there conflict will be as simple as good and evil. It seems more likely they have a difference of opinion on humans and life and death, and our creative and or destructive powers, and this conflict has led them into a multi-millennial chess game. And can I point out, while Jacob has done some iffy stuff, let's keep in mind what the man in dark has done, assuming he's the smoke monster, or that the smoke monster works for him. He convinced Locke that he was special, just so that he would be willing to sacrifice himself to bring back the Oceanic 6, and stop the time traveling. He used Locke to make Ben bitter so Ben would kill Jacob. He's been using Widmore's people, the Others, and the 815rs as pawns to kill Jacob. It seems he even made 815 crash, by bringing back the 06 in the first place. All I'm saying, is that with the information that we have about them both now, they both have their shady dealings. I'm sticking with team Jacob nevertheless.

[ravergirl]

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I'm not saying Jacob is the villain though. I don't think its going to be so cut and dry. It's like in politics. You have many parties, and there are supporters of each, but the answers to the issues are rarely as simple as each side would like for you to think.

I don't think Jacob is a villian, But it is a wide assumption by the majority of LOST fans that Jacob is the 'good guy' and the unnamed man is the 'bad guy' and I think it is way more complex than that. As are most people.

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I do think Jacob is the "light" side, or RA, in my theory, while man in dark is Anubis, but I don't think there conflict will be as simple as good and evil. It seems more likely they have a difference of opinion on humans and life and death, and our creative and or destructive powers, and this conflict has led them into a multi-millennial chess game.

Do youhave this theory typed up comprehensively? I would REALLY like to read it. I have read a couple peoples theories focusing on the Egyptian vein but with holes like swiss cheese.

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And can I point out, while Jacob has done some iffy stuff, let's keep in mind what the man in dark has done, assuming he's the smoke monster, or that the smoke monster works for him.

I certainly don't think that the MiB is the smoke monster. I think season 6 character stories are going to be very fulfilling.
I do think that it is more reasonable for the smoke monster to be a slave of sorts. But I don't know. Pretty much anything we say of the MiB is conjecture because we have no evidence of it.

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He convinced Locke that he was special, just so that he would be willing to sacrifice himself to bring back the Oceanic 6, and stop the time traveling. He used Locke to make Ben bitter so Ben would kill Jacob. He's been using Widmore's people, the Others, and the 815rs as pawns to kill Jacob. It seems he even made 815 crash, by bringing back the 06 in the first place. All I'm saying, is that with the information that we have about them both now, they both have their shady dealings.

IF that was the MiB doing then yes I agree. I just don't accept that he was all that influential. Matter of fact, I think he was in or near the Cabin when Claire was in there and Hurley let him out at that point in time.

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I'm sticking with team Jacob nevertheless.

I am with the Losties. Jacob is alien to me, I don't trust him.

This post has been edited by ravergirl: 29 May 2009 - 08:27 PM

[BlindMessiah]

ravergirl on May 29 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

Do youhave this theory typed up comprehensively? I would REALLY like to read it. I have read a couple peoples theories focusing on the Egyptian vein but with holes like swiss cheese.

My theory:

Lost is not based on Egyptian mythology. Egyptian mythology is based on Lost. The Other have placed great importance on themselves as the indigenous people. They built the temple and the other ancient formations as Ben claimed in "Dead is Dead." They cannot truly claim themselves as an indigenous people if they're actually ancient Egyptians that found the island and brought their myths with them. So we're left with this: an island with mystical properties and mystical beings and an indigenous people with ties to ancient Egyptian mythology. This leaves us with what seems to be only one viable option: the ancient Egyptians based their mythology on the island. The island has no entrance, but we do know it has an exit which transports people through space and time to Tunisia, which borders Egypt. It seems most probable, that at some point in time, some of the Others, by will or force, were transported off the island to Africa, where they founded the Egyptian empire. Over time, their memories and stories of the island, became the Egyptian mythology we know of today. Perhaps figures like Jacob, anti-Jacob, and the Smoke Monster, which may or may not be anti-Jacob, inspired the stories of the gods like Ra and Anubis. Jacob seems to be a life giver of sorts, and is found weaving a wall rug featuring Ra, the creator. His home resides in a statue of Taweret, the goddess of motherhood, another life giver. The Smoke Monster has been found to judge people and take the form of the dead, perhaps the inspiration for Anubis. In the temple, the image of the Smoke Monster is found next to the image of Anubis. Given the nature of the wheel, it is possible that the founders of ancient Egypt weren't even from that time period, but could actually be someone from present time or the future. The important thing is that we realize that the Others are not Egyptians that colonized the island, Egyptians are Others that colonized Africa.

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I am with the Losties. Jacob is alien to me, I don't trust him.

From everything we have seen, the Losties are mere puppets that might even take sides against each other. Even Benjamin Linus, Charles Widmore, and Eliza Hawking, the three previous leaders of the Others were shown to be puppets in the war between Jacob and anti-Jacob.

[ravergirl]

BlindMessiah on May 29 2009, 10:37 PM, said:

My theory:

Lost is not based on Egyptian mythology. Egyptian mythology is based on Lost. The Other have placed great importance on themselves as the indigenous people. They built the temple and the other ancient formations as Ben claimed in "Dead is Dead." They cannot truly claim themselves as an indigenous people if they're actually ancient Egyptians that found the island and brought their myths with them. So we're left with this: an island with mystical properties and mystical beings and an indigenous people with ties to ancient Egyptian mythology. This leaves us with what seems to be only one viable option: the ancient Egyptians based their mythology on the island. The island has no entrance, but we do know it has an exit which transports people through space and time to Tunisia, which borders Egypt. It seems most probable, that at some point in time, some of the Others, by will or force, were transported off the island to Africa, where they founded the Egyptian empire. Over time, their memories and stories of the island, became the Egyptian mythology we know of today. Perhaps figures like Jacob, anti-Jacob, and the Smoke Monster, which may or may not be anti-Jacob, inspired the stories of the gods like Ra and Anubis. Jacob seems to be a life giver of sorts, and is found weaving a wall rug featuring Ra, the creator. His home resides in a statue of Taweret, the goddess of motherhood, another life giver. The Smoke Monster has been found to judge people and take the form of the dead, perhaps the inspiration for Anubis. In the temple, the image of the Smoke Monster is found next to the image of Anubis. Given the nature of the wheel, it is possible that the founders of ancient Egypt weren't even from that time period, but could actually be someone from present time or the future. The important thing is that we realize that the Others are not Egyptians that colonized the island, Egyptians are Others that colonized Africa.


From everything we have seen, the Losties are mere puppets that might even take sides against each other. Even Benjamin Linus, Charles Widmore, and Eliza Hawking, the three previous leaders of the Others were shown to be puppets in the war between Jacob and anti-Jacob.

BR AV O.

That is a theory that I have not heard. You have no idea how glad I am that someone accepts that the statue is Taweret. There are so many people out there pushin Sobek and Anubis still, even after they have confirmed it being Taweret.