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A reason we havent found life...


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#16    DONTEATUS

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 03:25 AM

grin2.gif Good to meet you "MeteoricErod" This is a grand place to post point of opinions.
"Never Never Say Never!" That was a Great Winston Churchill quote. His just ended in "Never Never Say Quit"

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#17    MeteoricErod

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:44 AM

DONTEATUS on Jun 12 2009, 04:25 AM, said:

grin2.gif Good to meet you "MeteoricErod" This is a grand place to post point of opinions.
"Never Never Say Never!" That was a Great Winston Churchill quote. His just ended in "Never Never Say Quit"

Haha!! Nice to meet you DONTEATUS!!!  grin2.gif

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#18    randym23

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 12:17 PM

MeteoricErod on Jun 11 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

I do believe that there is life on other planets. I refuse to believe that out of the billions of planets in the universe...we would be the only one to have life on it.

However, maybe the reason we havent found SPACE FARRING civilizations NEAR US is because there are none. I'm sure there's life elsewhere in the universe
but maybe they're not as advanced as we would think. They could be at the same level of intelligence as us humans or maybe they may be even more
primitive such as our early prehistoric ancestors.

Maybe life on other planets isn't a highly cultured civilization but maybe it's just "animals" with the intelligence of an ordinary dog which obviously don't have the intelligence to even leave their own atmosphere let alone travel great distances across the emptiness of space to locate other civilizations.
We wouldn't be able to detect life on a planet that has life with this level of intelligence unless we have super powerful telescopes that can pear through
the atmosphere and zoom in close enough to the surface that we can view such creatures...but it's highly unlikely.

I bet there are many more planets with "animalistic life" in the universe than there are space farring technological civilizations.
Of course, I'm sure there are highly intelligent beings somewhere in the cosmos but they sure aren't anywhere near us.

I dont know if I made any sense. I'm sure there are many other possible reasons as to why we havent made contact yet but I just
had this idea and thought I would share it with everyone.

Do you guys have any personal beliefs as to why we havent made contact yet????

Oh, and I'm new to the site so sorry if I messed up on something. Nice to meet you guys!!!



you should read about the Fermi Paradox:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

it addresses a lot of these ideas

and visit my site:
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#19    lisavclarson

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:04 PM

Welcom to UM, MeteoricErod!  Everyone has there opinion about aliens.  Here's mine.  I think there are all types of alien life forms in the universe, intelligent and primitive alike.  If there are intelligent aliens visiting our planet, maybe they haven't made direct contact because we are a hostile race.  Most of the time, we, as humans don't even understand eachother...so, many of us would not be able to understand or welcome advanced alien beings.  Perhaps their elusive visits to our planet are the aliens way of treading lightly-something akin to the way humans approach wild animals on Earth.  We don't just go barrelling into a lion's den and attempt to communicate.  We'd either get our heads ripped off or we'd have to shoot to kill.  Neither of which would serve our purpose, so we watch and study from a safe distance.  I don't really mean to compare us to wild lions, but it's just an analogy.  I hope my idea makes sense.  It's just my own personal theory.  Have fun posting on UM!  wavey.gif


#20    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:32 PM

Although I consider the possibility of "advanced" lifeforms visiting Earth to study us, I discount its probability.  For one thing, it would be arrogant and hubristic to assume that we are the first "new" life observed by this race of aliens, or even the first new intelligent life.  Having experienced first contacts before, easily potential catastrophic failures, they would be prepared to carefully observe us without letting us know for extended periods of time.  To them, it might not even be certain that they want to interact with us.  Maybe they've played that game, and now want to study what happens when an intelligent species lifts itself out of darkest ignorance and into spacefaring glory.

There's also the possibility that we are too insignificant to be noticed on a cosmic scale yet.

It is my belief that life is rather common in the universe, in varying forms.  Bacterial or viral analogues to life would be most commonly seeded in the cosmos, with plant and animal analogues rarer but still very common.  It is impossible to speculate on the prominence of sentient or technological species (human analogues, if you will) because no one knows the likelihood of sentience arising from a pre-sentient biological matrix.  However, I suspect that in the cosmic timescale of our universe many sentients have lived, died, created, and destroyed.  It just seems likely to me that most would never become galactic scaled civilizations, or even interstellar civilizations.  Self destruction or extinction due to changes in the ecology or biosphere of the planet (disasters of varying sorts) seems more likely than the chance of becoming (nearly) permanently protected from outright extinction by the colonization of different solar systems (if one is even outright destroyed, at least another exists).

That said, a species that could cross the void could undoubtedly observe and study our pitifully primitive society's evolution without us ever being aware.  Since there is no way to prove this alien-voyeur theory, it should not be considered fact, it is mere speculation.

Unfortunately, if we are to prove the existence of aliens, we must either discover irrefutable proof of their existence (such as bodies or ruins of spacecraft/colonies) or be introduced to them formally at their behest.  First contact isn't really likely to be up to us, at least until we leave this solar system and begin interstellar exploration and colonization of exoplanets.  Then we may discover less advanced sentients, but higher sentients would be less likely to be found (either because they weren't there or because they didn't want/need to be found).

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#21    MeteoricErod

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:24 PM

lisavclarson on Jun 12 2009, 01:04 PM, said:

Welcom to UM, MeteoricErod!  Everyone has there opinion about aliens.  Here's mine.  I think there are all types of alien life forms in the universe, intelligent and primitive alike.  If there are intelligent aliens visiting our planet, maybe they haven't made direct contact because we are a hostile race.  Most of the time, we, as humans don't even understand eachother...so, many of us would not be able to understand or welcome advanced alien beings.  Perhaps their elusive visits to our planet are the aliens way of treading lightly-something akin to the way humans approach wild animals on Earth.  We don't just go barrelling into a lion's den and attempt to communicate.  We'd either get our heads ripped off or we'd have to shoot to kill.  Neither of which would serve our purpose, so we watch and study from a safe distance.  I don't really mean to compare us to wild lions, but it's just an analogy.  I hope my idea makes sense.  It's just my own personal theory.  Have fun posting on UM!  wavey.gif

Nice to meet you Lisavclarson!!!! You're opinion does make alot of sense and it's very well said.  grin2.gif

I do believe there are many types of alien life out there as well. You're analogy really does help clear up your thoughts.  original.gif

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#22    Udjat

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:28 PM

Ok. My opinion about aliens.

Like several people said before, statistically is certain that there is life in the universe besides us.

I do believe as well that there is advanced civilizations out there. But i don't believe that they have visited us. Planets like ours (liquid water, little variation in temperature, stable orbit, etc) are the result of n variables that are very rare in the universe, according to astronomers that are trying to find planets similar to ours.

If by any chance an advanced civilization found this planet and were capable of getting here, they would colonize Earth. And i don't believe either that they did that in the past. If it was in a recent past (a few thousand years), there had to be clues. And there isn't. And no, the pyramids and such are not clues of extraterrestrial life. That level of technology is consistent why the civilizations that existed in those regions of the world.

Also an advanced life form would be by necessity a predator. The dominant species in an ecosystem is always a predator, and scientists concluded by now that life, here or in another planet, would have followed the same principles of evolution. I'm not saying that life would be the same that we see in our planet, by far, but would have had the same beginnings (that life came from simpler chemical reactions resulting in simple cells) and the same evolutionary principles (heredity, mutation, etc). So being a predator they would always follow the basic predatory instincts, just like us.

Now if one advanced predatory species found another, i don't believe that they would "respect" one another. Subjugation of one of those species would be inevitable. So my point is that they would not sit by "observing" us, at least in the long run. The difference of the level of technology from one of those civilizations and ours would be staggering. There would be no need to observe us for this long.

So if it didn't happen by now, it means there are no aliens visiting our planet. But its a possibility in the future.

This is my opinion. ph34r.gif




#23    MeteoricErod

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 02:31 PM

Druidus-Logos on Jun 12 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

Although I consider the possibility of "advanced" lifeforms visiting Earth to study us, I discount its probability.  For one thing, it would be arrogant and hubristic to assume that we are the first "new" life observed by this race of aliens, or even the first new intelligent life.  Having experienced first contacts before, easily potential catastrophic failures, they would be prepared to carefully observe us without letting us know for extended periods of time.  To them, it might not even be certain that they want to interact with us.  Maybe they've played that game, and now want to study what happens when an intelligent species lifts itself out of darkest ignorance and into spacefaring glory.

There's also the possibility that we are too insignificant to be noticed on a cosmic scale yet.

It is my belief that life is rather common in the universe, in varying forms.  Bacterial or viral analogues to life would be most commonly seeded in the cosmos, with plant and animal analogues rarer but still very common.  It is impossible to speculate on the prominence of sentient or technological species (human analogues, if you will) because no one knows the likelihood of sentience arising from a pre-sentient biological matrix.  However, I suspect that in the cosmic timescale of our universe many sentients have lived, died, created, and destroyed.  It just seems likely to me that most would never become galactic scaled civilizations, or even interstellar civilizations.  Self destruction or extinction due to changes in the ecology or biosphere of the planet (disasters of varying sorts) seems more likely than the chance of becoming (nearly) permanently protected from outright extinction by the colonization of different solar systems (if one is even outright destroyed, at least another exists).

That said, a species that could cross the void could undoubtedly observe and study our pitifully primitive society's evolution without us ever being aware.  Since there is no way to prove this alien-voyeur theory, it should not be considered fact, it is mere speculation.

Unfortunately, if we are to prove the existence of aliens, we must either discover irrefutable proof of their existence (such as bodies or ruins of spacecraft/colonies) or be introduced to them formally at their behest.  First contact isn't really likely to be up to us, at least until we leave this solar system and begin interstellar exploration and colonization of exoplanets.  Then we may discover less advanced sentients, but higher sentients would be less likely to be found (either because they weren't there or because they didn't want/need to be found).

That is so true. There might have been civilizations that have become extinct because they probably killed themselves off or because their planet suffered some catastrophe and it was no longer able to sustain them.

I agree with many of the basic points and ideas of your "theory" Druidus. I can see it's very well thought out.  thumbsup.gif

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#24    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 04:02 PM

Quote

Like several people said before, statistically is certain that there is life in the universe besides us.


Not certain, but very likely.

Quote

I do believe as well that there is advanced civilizations out there. But i don't believe that they have visited us. Planets like ours (liquid water, little variation in temperature, stable orbit, etc) are the result of n variables that are very rare in the universe, according to astronomers that are trying to find planets similar to ours.


The rarity of such planets does not matter.  We have observed one type of life.  Ours.  This doesn't mean that ecological complexity could develop under different conditions.  There could conceivably be living sentients in giant gas planets, who float rather than walk.  Or sentients in extreme cold, heat, or pressures.  There is nothing intrinsically limiting their evolution, just availability of energy gradients.

Also, our telescopes are not powerful enough to detect all exoplanets, especially small rocky ones, so we can't really quantify the rarity of such worlds.

Quote

If by any chance an advanced civilization found this planet and were capable of getting here, they would colonize Earth. And i don't believe either that they did that in the past. If it was in a recent past (a few thousand years), there had to be clues. And there isn't. And no, the pyramids and such are not clues of extraterrestrial life. That level of technology is consistent why the civilizations that existed in those regions of the world.


Why would they colonize Earth?  Again, they are not necessarily Earth-adapted.  Even if they were, getting here is a problem.  And then there's the fact that their morality will have evolved with their technology too.  Just because they are powerful doesn't mean they'll abuse that power.  Consider slavery in the western world.  Early in our development we didn't find this to be inherently immoral, but nowadays we would never enslave another people simply because we had the power to do it and the will to take their resources.  

Even if they had the ability to get here, they might have a morality that prevents the usurpation of a planet from its sentient occupants.  Might doesn't always make right.

You cannot definitively say that they would colonize Earth.  What attracts one species repels another.

Quote

Also an advanced life form would be by necessity a predator.


No, it wouldn't, not "by necessity".  There's no logical reason to deny the possibility of sentience to herbivores.

Quote

The dominant species in an ecosystem is always a predator, and scientists concluded by now that life, here or in another planet, would have followed the same principles of evolution.


They may have followed the same principles but different conditions can cause different results.  

As well, what do you mean by dominant?  Most prolific?  Then it can't be predators, there are less of them than herbivores.  Size?  Herbivores win.  Intelligence?  True, omnivores and carnivores tend towards higher intelligence, but this doesn't stop the development of a herbivorous sentience.  It merely lowers the likelihood somewhat.  Intelligence can still evolve a feedback loop in herbivores through intensely social environments.

The Blue Whale has no natural predators as an adult.  Is it dominant?  Elephants, as well, have no natural predators, and have uncanny intellectual abilities.  Scientists have concluded nothing on this matter, it cannot yet be "concluded".

Not only that, but we were herbivores, mostly.  The top animal would have been big cats in our early evolution, not us.

QUOTE
I'm not saying that life would be the same that we see in our planet, by far, but would have had the same beginnings (that life came from simpler chemical reactions resulting in simple cells) and the same evolutionary principles (heredity, mutation, etc).


I agree.

QUOTE
So being a predator they would always follow the basic predatory instincts, just like us.


This doesn't follow.

QUOTE
Now if one advanced predatory species found another, i don't believe that they would "respect" one another.


They would if they had sufficiently developed their morality to the level of including other sentient species in their circle of respect.  In the void of space there is no reason for conflict between two such species.  It is more rational to co-exist.  

QUOTE
Subjugation of one of those species would be inevitable.


Why?  Why would an advanced species go through the trouble of enslaving another advanced species?  It gives them no benefit.  If they need slaves, they should build robots or design biological constructs without sentience.  It's easier and depending on the psychology of the species more moral.  If they need more space, they could go to any other planet out there, they wouldn't need to take over an inhabited one.  I just can't see subjugation being a necessity.

QUOTE
So my point is that they would not sit by "observing" us, at least in the long run.


Unless they aren't as you conceive them.

QUOTE
The difference of the level of technology from one of those civilizations and ours would be staggering. There would be no need to observe us for this long.


Could be staggering is a better way of putting it.  And they would observe us rather than destroy/enslave us if they were rational, logical sentients who were interested in the natural evolution of pre-spacefaring civilization.  Interaction would ruin the experiment, observation would be the only way.

QUOTE
I agree with many of the basic points and ideas of your "theory" Druidus. I can see it's very well thought out.


Thanks.  original.gif

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#25    MeteoricErod

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 05:30 PM

Druidus-Logos on Jun 12 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Not certain, but very likely.



The rarity of such planets does not matter.  We have observed one type of life.  Ours.  This doesn't mean that ecological complexity could develop under different conditions.  There could conceivably be living sentients in giant gas planets, who float rather than walk.  Or sentients in extreme cold, heat, or pressures.  There is nothing intrinsically limiting their evolution, just availability of energy gradients.

Also, our telescopes are not powerful enough to detect all exoplanets, especially small rocky ones, so we can't really quantify the rarity of such worlds.



Why would they colonize Earth?  Again, they are not necessarily Earth-adapted.  Even if they were, getting here is a problem.  And then there's the fact that their morality will have evolved with their technology too.  Just because they are powerful doesn't mean they'll abuse that power.  Consider slavery in the western world.  Early in our development we didn't find this to be inherently immoral, but nowadays we would never enslave another people simply because we had the power to do it and the will to take their resources.  

Even if they had the ability to get here, they might have a morality that prevents the usurpation of a planet from its sentient occupants.  Might doesn't always make right.

You cannot definitively say that they would colonize Earth.  What attracts one species repels another.



No, it wouldn't, not "by necessity".  There's no logical reason to deny the possibility of sentience to herbivores.



They may have followed the same principles but different conditions can cause different results.  

As well, what do you mean by dominant?  Most prolific?  Then it can't be predators, there are less of them than herbivores.  Size?  Herbivores win.  Intelligence?  True, omnivores and carnivores tend towards higher intelligence, but this doesn't stop the development of a herbivorous sentience.  It merely lowers the likelihood somewhat.  Intelligence can still evolve a feedback loop in herbivores through intensely social environments.

The Blue Whale has no natural predators as an adult.  Is it dominant?  Elephants, as well, have no natural predators, and have uncanny intellectual abilities.  Scientists have concluded nothing on this matter, it cannot yet be "concluded".

Not only that, but we were herbivores, mostly.  The top animal would have been big cats in our early evolution, not us.



I agree.



This doesn't follow.



They would if they had sufficiently developed their morality to the level of including other sentient species in their circle of respect.  In the void of space there is no reason for conflict between two such species.  It is more rational to co-exist.  



Why?  Why would an advanced species go through the trouble of enslaving another advanced species?  It gives them no benefit.  If they need slaves, they should build robots or design biological constructs without sentience.  It's easier and depending on the psychology of the species more moral.  If they need more space, they could go to any other planet out there, they wouldn't need to take over an inhabited one.  I just can't see subjugation being a necessity.



Unless they aren't as you conceive them.



Could be staggering is a better way of putting it.  And they would observe us rather than destroy/enslave us if they were rational, logical sentients who were interested in the natural evolution of pre-spacefaring civilization.  Interaction would ruin the experiment, observation would be the only way.



Thanks.  original.gif


Wow Druidus...you really ripped him apart huh?!? lol

I do agree with some of Udjat's ideas...but some do seem to be far fetched...but then again....we havent met our fellow space neighbors so we cant do anything but guess. Right???  happy.gif

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#26    Hazzard

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 09:25 PM

We might just be the first ... anyone ever think of that... Scary thought, but, we might just be alone.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#27    DONTEATUS

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 09:33 PM

Hazzard on Jun 12 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

We might just be the first ... anyone ever think of that... Scary thought, but, we might just be alone.

The way we breed it wont be long till the entire universe is full of us then?
Good point though Hazzard!

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#28    MeteoricErod

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 09:39 PM

Hazzard on Jun 12 2009, 09:25 PM, said:

We might just be the first ... anyone ever think of that... Scary thought, but, we might just be alone.


Yeah, we might be the first and maybe thousands of years into the future when we discover that there's some primitive civilization that's just barely starting out...
we will go to their planet and show them the secrets of the universe in the hopes that we will push them in the right direction in their ongoing journey to make
sense of the world around them. Then, they will believe we are some sort of Gods and they will write and tell stories about us. Then, after some time we can
abduct them and so on and so forth......  happy.gif . Good point though Hazzard. I never thought of it like that. thumbup.gif

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#29    Alienated Being

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 09:42 PM

Hazzard on Jun 12 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

We might just be the first ... anyone ever think of that... Scary thought, but, we might just be alone.

Another planet, another solar system... another galaxy. No way in Hell that we are the first, and we won't be the last. If we can be created, then so can other civilizations.


#30    MID

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 09:57 PM

Hazzard on Jun 12 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

We might just be the first ... anyone ever think of that... Scary thought, but, we might just be alone.



Yes...I'd say there is some small probability of that Hazz (although when we look at the age of the universe, and the age of some galaxies, it doesn't seem too plausible)...but God Damn that's a somewhat depressing thought, isn't it?

sad.gif


...personally, I think the universe is likely teeming with intelligent life!








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