[S♥ ♥ ♥]

[quote name='PerVirtuous' post='3030301' date='Aug 9 2009, 06:44 AM']So far, so good.





Agreed. It is the action of thinking which proves an entity exists. No problem with that. How that proves that there is a singular reality that is the same for all observers is what I question. There is no evidence that the universe is so. There is plenty of evidence that people with the same basic genetic makeup will agree about how things appear. Confusing that with how things actually are is being arrogant and conceited. Why should we ever believe that the way we perceive things is the way they are? All we can objectively say is that is how they appear. That is hardly the same.

objectivity doesn't require subjective description..in other words objectivity is not perspective dependent, perhaps that's what you are not connecting to..

This post has been edited by S♥ ♥ ♥: 09 August 2009 - 11:51 PM

[S♥ ♥ ♥]

PerVirtuous, on Aug 9 2009, 06:46 AM, said:

So, you are able to accept the existence of objectivity based on the fabulous logic "It just is" but you find subjectivity difficult to prove? I think you have lost the plot.




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in other words a ball 'can just be' it can exist whether I observe it or not...this distinguishes it as objective...

[mcrom901]

one of my favourites.....

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ukbFvxusMMI

[Br Cornelius]

Thanks PerVertious, as far as I am concerned there was no contest. Very well argued.
The fact that it agrees with every great philopher of modern times, will put our niave need for objectivity into perspective. Marbod you have simply expressed a subjective belief.
Even if we accept our own existance it doesn't take us outside of our own heads and into the objective reality which everyone wants to believe in. Everything is physically filtered through our sense organs, and since each brain is wired uniquely it cannot experience anything other than its own synapse net. It is a filtering mechanism, and a shape capturing mechanism and since each of these abilities is learned uniquely then the products are also unique. Add on top of this a language filter which imposses its own limitations on what can be concieved and we can start to see that our internal subjective models can never approach a true understanding of reality and can never approach objectivity.
All this demonstrates that just because we want and need objective reality to exist that it can never be demonstrated beyond our own self.

I think it is reasonable to allow for the possability of objectivity as it seems to map to my own subjectivity and it seems to be functionally useful to some degree. However we must always be aware that our brains will deceive us about its nature, and therefore we need to be extremely skeptical about what we believe it might be.

Br Cornelius

This post has been edited by Br Cornelius: 17 September 2009 - 08:58 PM