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Crop Circles: Method or Lie?


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#1    saucy

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Posted 08 May 2004 - 10:53 PM

Debate started by Saucy:  The question, suggested by Althalus, is whether or not crop circles are as real as the hardcore UFO people believe it to be or if it's as fake as Michael Jackson's nose.  Mickyboy will debate that the crop circles have been proven false by the hoaxers themselves and Blue Scorpion will argue that many of the crop circles have shown up in all parts of the world and many are too elaborate to be fake.  You each have an introduction, four body posts and a rebuttal in the end to sum up all your evidence.  Have fun and good luck!


#2    mickyboy

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Posted 08 May 2004 - 11:04 PM

seeing as though i know absolutely nothing about crop circles you'll have to give me a little time to do some research but in the spirit of the debate i will accept


Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means?

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#3    mickyboy

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Posted 09 May 2004 - 02:37 PM

INTRODUCTION

THE LIE

I intend to cast some doubt on whether crop circles are created by "OTHER" beings, it's a fact that there are certain aspects to some crop circles that seem to be beyond belief, like wheat growing horizontally and the likes but i feel confident that when you look at the whole scenario you'll see its not little green men making them but a sinister government plot to distract the masses from some hidden agenda

Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means?

Socrates

#4    Scorpius

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 12:30 AM

Introduction: Alien Characters and/or Signs

Crop Circles are of alien design.  These "circles" that have been found in many areas of the world, are created to such an extraordinary extent, with an astounding use of precise measurements.  These Crop Circles have also been shown in many shapes and sizes in an elaborate design that may have been intended as a sign to us, humans, or other visiting aliens.  

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#5    mickyboy

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 04:27 PM

I dont think there is any evidence to show that crop circles are of "alien design"
they are just geometrical shapes, we see whatever we want to see in them and make our own conclusions, the shapes produced are more akin to a computer generated program, the reason for this is as follows:

The geometric designs observed today are typical of those one can see on computers: 3D designs, fractal designs… Certain patterns are, mathematically speaking, pretty complex

Certain patterns suggest the use of a rotating beam with variable diameter according to the circles in question , which might correspond to either the natural or deliberate dispersion of a maser beam, fired from a high altitude. The diameter is estimated to be less than 30 centimetres at a distance of 20 kilometres.


The designs are drawn very rapidly, by day and by night, sometimes in front of witnesses who report seeing the ears of wheat flattening out in front of them in a few dozens of seconds. Three accounts of this type have been recorded up to the present day, coming from known and trustworthy witnesses. Numerous other accounts have come from unfortunately less trustworthy persons.

Edited by mickyboy, 12 May 2004 - 04:28 PM.

Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means?

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#6    Scorpius

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 11:00 PM

That's exactly where I was getting at.  The process, of this highly advanced species, in creating these crop circles are still a mystery.  Scientists and researchers who studied the Crop Circle in Edmonton, Alberta noticed the unusual effects of some unkown energy.

If this was in fact created by an unkown energy than one cannot assume that the culprits of these crop circles are of human origin.  We do not have any known technology that would produce such effects on the wheat found in this particular Crop Circle.  So if it wasn't humans, than what other advanced species would have created this from earth?  Humans have already been ruled out, and since there are no known species as intelligent as us on earth; aliens would prove to be the most apparent culprit.

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#7    mickyboy

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Posted 13 May 2004 - 05:34 PM

I beg to differ, the unknown energy your referring to is simply microwaves,
Phenomena of electromagnetic origin have been observed at the locations: irregular compass behaviour, disturbance of electrical apparatus and, disturbance of radio frequencies, luminous flashes, cracking sounds, animals obviously unwell, dowsing effects etc. Numerous positive effects (spontaneous cures, feelings of peace…) or negative effects (temporary paralysis, mental confusion, loss of memory, terror…) have also been observed in humans. Let us remember that certain effects could also be explained by a reaction of fertilisers or pesticides subjected to microwave radiation, a reaction which could release toxic gases. The appearances of luminous flashes and the cracking sounds are not inevitably objective phenomena and they could be only feelings induced in the brain of the witness by an electromagnetic field. Albert Budden gives an example of such magnetophosphenes: "If the brain of the subject is exposed to an [alternating] magnetic field whose frequency varies from 10 to 100 Hz and whose power varies from 200 to 1,000 G, the subject will see flashes of light in the top left corner of his visual field.

The investigator Busty Taylor showed that samples of plants or ground taken in a crop circle could be attracted by a simple magnet. That could be explained by the fact that the ferromagnetic particles present in the dust of the atmosphere were bound with the site of the circle, after or during its creation. Some of these particles have been scrutinised under microscope. They seemed to have melted when touching the soil or the plants to create a fine cracked glaze.

A bird was found within one particular formation and its body appeared literally to have exploded, as if it had been cooked alive in a microwave oven. In other formations some dried out hedgehogs were discovered. Also wheat grains are dehydrated and crunchy. They are less conductive according to work by Dr Levengood.

Microwave laser technology appeared during the 50s and has been improving in keeping with the increasing complexity of the crop circles. Is it a mere coincidence?

Edited by mickyboy, 13 May 2004 - 05:36 PM.

Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means?

Socrates

#8    Scorpius

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 02:46 AM

If a particular government has such a technology you referred to as "Microwave Laser Technology", why exactly are they wasting their time creating works of art?
Why not use this technology on more pressing matters rather than incite unwanted media over comopressed plants?  Isn't this costing people money for using such a technology that must surely require a tremedous amount of energy?  Where exactly are they getting this energy and money from?

QUOTE

Microwave laser technology appeared during the 50s and has been improving in keeping with the increasing complexity of the crop circles. Is it a mere coincidence?


So, these people are wasting their time making more complex designs as their technology improves?  

Crop Circles can be found across North America and as well as Europe, and this would mean more people are acquiring such technology through what?  The Black Market?

There was also the case of "crop circles" found on ice.  Are these people wasting more time travelling to create more of these works of art, that skeptics apparently describe them as.

These surely must be signs of an other-worldly origin sending us messages.

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#9    mickyboy

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 03:35 PM

we as taxpayers pay for this technology.  its long been known that there are levels of government that milk the kitty for operations and blah blah blah.  this isnt such a complex reality to grasp and when you think about it, its common sense.  as for people travelling around im talking about an orbit based weapon capable of producing complex designs.  its my point of view that this is the reason you get a certain type of crop circle and not the obvious hoax's around. from a scientific point of view you have to have a degree  of rationality to comprehend the possibilities in front of you and not have the closed mind opinion that its them up there doing funny designs.

HPM (High Power Microwave) technology is used by the military today for destroying enemy electronic equipment.


The military wish to maintain the belief in extraterrestrials and are carrying out psychological warfare tests. They have the means for decoying the observers so that the circles will be attributed to extraterrestrials.


The military secret services are not held back by the risk of killing. Unfortunately the "circles" have already produced one victim: on the 22nd October 1987, as his jet was passing above a crop circle, the pilot ejected and then detached himself from his parachute before hitting the ground. Some aerial photographers report that the designs have a noticeable influence on them and on the aircraft controls when it is flying above them.


The British military is co-operating extensively with the American military and may have agreed to the use of "its" land.
The authentic formations have, of course, lead to numerous imitations which were at first rare and clumsy but nowadays are more common and sometimes impressive if the hoaxers have worked as a team for long hours. Competitions have been organised but no hoax has been able to withstand close scrutiny.
In order to distinguish an authentic pattern from a hoax, investigators concentrate mainly on the bending of the plant's stalk at its base, the plant having always to remain unbroken, something which imitators find impossible to achieve as they tread down their design in all directions during its making. Freddy Silva sometimes uses infrared photography on which one must see appear traces of disturbances in the spread of water within the soil if the design has really been created by heat-inducing rays. Debbie Benstead and other researchers often clearly identify a metallic taste in their mouths when they walk within an authentic formation which could be due to a residual electromagnetic field interfering with tooth filling inside their mouth.
alien.gif  

Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means?

Socrates

#10    Scorpius

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 06:41 PM

The interesting part of your arguement is that it is the first of its kind.  I have never heard of HPM Technology argued for the basis of crop circles.  Nevertheless, there are numerous risks of such a technology that is used around non-military testing sites especially testing on agricultural lands.

So they are using this technology for the public to believe that it is part of the creation of aliens?  I'm sure the government would not be doing so.  What I'm aware of is that they are trying to dismiss the fact that aliens exist, which is all too familiar in the case of Roswell, New Mexico.  Why exactly would the disclose such information when it has already been viewed by the public.

I'm aware of a High-Power Microwave Laboratory in New Mexico, coordinated by the Air Force Department of the United States, and that this technology is currently in it's experimental stages for operational purposes.  If I'm correct, how exactly do they already have a "satelite" based system that uses this technology, if it's currectly being experimented on?

Such technology would be tested on military testing sites not on farmland across Europe, United States, and Australia.  How exactly does a number of crop circle designs aid in the experimental process of this technolgy?  The use of this technology for crop circles would be considered inappropriate and potentially hazardous and possibly deadly.

I would assume that the Air Force would use this technology on a more rational and appropriate manner.


There was one famous report in 1972, from Bryce Bond and Arthur Shuttlewood, that detailed the event of a UFO that was seen above a field.  A few seconds later, after they had seen the UFO, they noticed a crop circle.

Many cases of crop circles are well known for it's alien/UFO connection.  Why is this?  Multiple witness would prove undeniable in the court of law if a crime had taken place and no visual evidence (such as photographs or videos) was used.  Why are multiple witnesses quickly shot-down if they had seen such an event as this?  Sometimes the most far-fetched can experience hold truth.

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#11    mickyboy

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 07:32 PM

when you eliminate the possible the impossible, however improbable, is usually correct.

I dont think that you have shown that aliens have created crop circles, im sure that you would like to believe along with thousands of others, but the plain and simple truth of it is that your looking at the problem with blinkers on, its not for me to speculate to the reasons why they are testing in this way but it is plain and to the point that these crop circles are created by an orbit based weapon, i cannot come up with a viable reason why  the crop circles are created by the government, to confuse the public, maybe its to take the public gaze away from something else, who knows, what i have put forward is a reasonable method of crop circle production within the specifics of a true crop circle and not an obvious hoax.  

In the beginning it was a question of ears of wheat found flattened down to ground level in the form of a circle. Since then the phenomenon has become considerably complex and diversified. Nowadays the patterns found in fields are large up to some hundreds of metres in size, and complex geometric shapes completed in a very short time such as less than half a minute . Many hypotheses have been examined, including that of extraterrestrials because UFOs have often been observed in the vicinity sometimes casting a luminous ray towards the ground.
It is likely that these geometric designs are due to the firing of an aerial military microwave cannon, piloted by computer.  President Reagan’s "Star Wars" (SDI) proposed the setting up of various antimissile laser devices. Let us mention only the GBL (Ground-Based Laser), a ground cannon aimed at a reflecting satellite which sends the light beam to a combat satellite mirror, and the SBL (Space-Based Laser) which aims directly at the target. Even if the global project has been abandoned, some of its devices may have been completed on a small scale. The firing can also be carried out from a plane (airborne laser) or a dirigible balloon positioned at a height of 20 kilometres and stabilised for example by ionic propulsion engines.

Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means?

Socrates

#12    mickyboy

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 07:41 PM

CONCLUSION

In the past few years i have always been alert to the fact that crop circles play a big part in peoples lives, there is a certain mystery to them that is appealing to the conspiritorial nature inside the true believer, whether they are created by aliens is another story, another story indeed, the evidence I have put forward is of orbital based technology being used to deflect interest in the truth, the truth being, elaborate designs to mask orbital firing weapons, the effects of such a weapon I have put forward in my posts, electromagnetic interference on witnesses that would make you hallucinate and see things that arent there, cooked animals as well as burnt trees, designs so intricate and as to be beyond belief, but the sad truth is only a computer operated weapon in orbit can produce the true crop circles on the planet with all the phenomenon inside. Thre is no point speculating on why the government would do it, but the truth is out there, we just have to look with our eyes open to other possibilities and not little green men. I liked tasking part in this ddebate and look forward to more to come

MickyBoy

Then let us again examine whether that is a sound statement, or do we let it pass, and if one of us, or someone else, merely says that something is so, do we accept that it is so? Or should we examine what the speaker means?

Socrates

#13    Scorpius

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 02:56 AM

QUOTE (cropcircleconnector.com)
"In 1990, the Government held a meeting with cabinet ministers, and no doubt the Military, to discuss the phenomenon, and what implications it held regarding the public, and defence matters. Their answer was that their was no answer! The phenomenon remained a mystery, which was quite a result, and demonstrated the type of  impact the year of 1990 had at government levels. It was shortly after this meeting that the Hoaxing campaign started to hit the crop circle world."


If this phenomenon was never answered straigh-forwardly by the Government, then obviously there is something fishy about this.  Why weasel around a question if the answer is as straight-forward as it is?  The government has not answered this question clearly, and they have also weaseled their way out on the question of the existance of Aliens and the matters concerning the Blue Book.

This obviously shows a connection between these two events .


QUOTE (mickyboy)
I dont think that you have shown that aliens have created crop circles


There are no solid evidence as to whether aliens are the creators of these crop circles.  Why is that?  Imagine you are of alien descendant and are on a mission to send humans a message, that they could easily see, which is through creating crop circles.  You cannot show yourself to a highly erratic and emotionally disturbed race, who seem to be hostile, so you cloak yourself using your technology.  You fly down to the crops and create your message leaving without a trace, except your message.

This scenario offers a plausible explanation as to why there are no solid evidence of who is responsible for these crop circles.

A laser beam directed from an aerial craft such as a plane or satelite offers less of an accuracy in creating such designs especially when a laser is being used.  How exactly does this laser create the "tornado effect" (stems flatted in a clockwise/counterclockwise motion) on these crops?  

A smaller craft such as a UFO can hover above the crop field undetected to create these elaborate designs in a more accurate detail.  While a plane would obviously be heard above if it were to fly closer to it, causing a number of problems.  There would be major-sound disturbances caused by a plane, this in turn disrupts neigbouring farmers and animals.  Consequently, there would be disruptions of commercial airlines and delays, due to the creation of these crop circles.  

A less noticeable process would be through cloaked and undetectable crafts as I stated before--UFOs.

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#14    Scorpius

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 03:13 AM

Conlusion:

This phenomenon is still a mystery, yet my educational belief of UFOs causing this seems to be ever more apparent.  There are hoaxers in the world that try and discourage people to believe that all crop circles are of man-made design.  There are crop circles of human creation and others of paranormal design.  These are the crop circles that have drawn researches and paranormal investigators alike.  They are still fascinated by this and do not have solid answers to this, therefore the possibility of these Crop Circles being of alien origin is still open.  Only time will tell for many more crop circles to appear and for more evidence to show us who exactly the creators are.

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#15    saucy

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 03:31 AM

Thanks to you both for taking part, the results for this debate will be posted up as soon as possible.





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