[saucy]

This debate is set up by Saucy: This debate asks the question of whether or not the pyramids were helped by alien beings that came to earth to help humans get the ball rolling on civilization. The two who will help to answer the question are Byuu94, who debates that the pyramids are only a human-designed project and Falco Rex who argues that humans had help from the skies above. You each have to get through an introduction, followed by four body posts and a final rebuttal to sum up all your evidence. Have fun and good luck!

[Falco Rex]

For thousands of years the legend of visitors from the sky has been with us. From Cave Paintings to the works of the Great Master Painters of the Renaissance UFOs' have appeared in our art. From The Bible to the recent works of Whitley Streiber they have graced our literature..But before the abductions,before the cattle mutilations, there were other stories of Visitors from beyond. Stories of Aliens who worked in harmony with the great civilizations of yesteryear...
And nowhere on Earth is this more evident than Ancient Egypt. The ancient world contained many wonders..The Collosus of Rhodes, the Gardens of Babylon; but although these are all impressive none can match the sheer wonder that is the Pyramids. Never before had such a radical design concept sprang out of nowhere. the sheer size and exactness of measurement is completely different from anything else in the Egyptian school of Architecture. So where did the Idea come from? How was such an impossible work carried out by a people whose technology was rudimentary at best?
In the following posts I will present evidence and pose questions that will hopefully lead you to the same conclusion I have come to: The God-Kings of Ancient Egypt were advised by these "Men From the Stars.".......

[Byuu94]

Many movies and books have shown how the scientists of our time believe the Egyptians built the pyramids. Although there is dabate over whether or not slave labor was used, the contruction of the pyramids has been proven to have been possible by ancient means.

[Falco Rex]

Was it possible for the Egyptians to build the Pyramids on their own?..Maybe. But how likely is it? I find it interesting that in a culture where two story homes were unheard of and all the temples and monuments were built on a one-story plan, that the Great Pyramid contains no less than four(and quite possibly five if the rumors are true)levels. The Pyramids are quite unlike anything built before or since in Egypt. Truly an "Alien" series of tombs...
Let us not forget the narrow passages that point directly to Sirius and Orions' Belt. Why were they there? No one was meant to enter the tomb after it was sealed. Surely such an view of those Stars would be wasted on Egyptian Astronomers who could never enter? So what was their purpose?
Well a central belief of Egyptian religion was that the deceaseds' spirit would continue to use their tomb after their journey to the Underworld. So we can only conclude that these viewing holes were for the use of the Pharoahs' Ka.
And why would the Pharoeh need to see Sirius and Orions' Belt? Was He perhaps waiting for a message from the stars? A messsage from the beings that helped him craft his grand monument?
I think it quite likely that he was...

[Byuu94]

The Egyptians, like the Romans though that many of their kings were gods themselves. When the Pharoh died he wanted to have a monument to remind people of his life, and in a way rule even after death. How many monuments have been erected in Jesus's image? The Egyptians thought of their Pharoh as the greatest being on Earth, and many would have been proud to take part in the construction of the pyramids. As far as being accurate, the Great Pyramid of Giza is very accurate. However pyramids have not always been so perfect. The bent pyramid is called that because its slope changes from 53 degrees to 42 degrees about half way up. If it had been built 53 degrees all the way to the top, then it would not have been structurally strong enough to put the chambers inside.

[Falco Rex]

The Bent Pyramid was indeed coreected halfway through. Others collapsed or were scrapped halfway through. However the three Pyramids at Giza were built with mathematical concepts that the Egyptians may well have had but proved unable to fully master. Pyramids built before those at Giza were fraught with problems. Pyramids that were built after showed shoddy workmanship and architectual mistakes not present in the Giza Pyramids. I highly doubt the knowledge of how to build them perfectly would just dissapear, at least if the knowledge was theirs in the first place.
While Egypt suffered a few foreign invasions over the centuries there was no real cultural "Dark Ages." All the knowhow to build a Pyramid correctly would have existed in one form or another. I believe their communications with the Aliens stopped some time after the Giza Pyramids were finished, and thus all Pyramids thereafter were built on an imperfect memory.

[Byuu94]

The pyramids built after Giza are smaller is scale, and due to invasions and raids are mostly destroyed. The reason that they are smaller and not as well built may be because it was not economicaly possible to build a pyramid as big as those in Giza every time a ruler died. Also it would take less time to build, so they builders would not have to worry about a pharoh dying before their tomb was done. Also after building so many pyramids, their quarries may have run out of stones used in building, like limestone. Although my solutions, like yours, are mostly guesswork they show that there are many other far "human" factors at work in Egypt.

[Falco Rex]

Up to this point my argument has been based largely on circumstantial evidence and conjecture, a mere set-up to the real questions, if you will..
The real question lies in the tools used to build the Pyramids and the time scale involved...
We are told by mainstream Archeology that the Egyptians could cut a block of stone from a quarry, shape and finish it,transport it to the work site, and place it every 3 seconds,24 hours a day,for 23 years. And all this with Copper tools and Diorite pounding stones. This is simply not feasible. Even with enforced civilian labor and slaves the logistics of such a feat are ridiculous..
I would also draw attention to the fact that copper is an ineffective metal to work stone with. While it may have well been used to work the sandstone blocks used in the Pyramids Copper tools would lose their edge after only a few hits if it were used to shape the Granite blocks the Pyramids also contained...
Diorite, on the other hand IS hard enough to work stone but we are left with the question of how they could possibly shape the Diorite into a tool that could be used in the first place.
Copper,again, would be useless for this task. And while the Hittite culture had Iron at this point in history it also was too soft to shape Diorite. The Egyptians would have had to have had something at least as hard as Damascus steel to effectively make the tools they were supposed to have used in the Pyramids' construction. All Archeological evidence suggests that they did NOT possess steel, and if they did they certainly would have used steel tools to help them build the Pyramids rather than the inferior tools they had.
As no culture at the time had the tools to work Diorite, which we know the Egyptians used, there is no nation they could have borrowed the knowledge from..If the answer doesn't lie within it must come from without..
And for this we can refer to the Egyptians own Religious beliefs,which includes beings from the stars,as well as numerous Heiroglyphics that seem to include UFOs' in their motifs..

[Byuu94]

[Falco Rex]

Yes copper could conceivably be used to finish the softer standard limestone blocks, although it's still a poor choice of tools. However, you are forgetting that until the Arabs stripped it off 600 years ago, the Great Pyramid had an outer covering of White Limestone, which is harder than Marble and similar to Granite in every respect.
These outer blocks were 100 inches thick,weighed twenty tons each and were fitted with an even greater care than the inner stones. They also formed a smooth reflective surface..
So again, copper alone wouldn't suffice for finishing these blocks.
As to your confusion about the Diorite stones. They were simply that. Round balls of Diorite. The fact that the Egyptians used these stones as rock-pounders leads me to label them "tools."However, there have been statues found in Egypt where shaped Diorite was incorporated into them. Leaving me to wonder again how they shaped a material that was harder than copper or bronze, which were the only two metals availible to them. A round stone is simply no good for precision crafting.
Of the stones that remain on the pyramid let us pause to consider that the surface stones are cut within 1/100th of an inch of perfectly straight and at perfect right angles for all 6 sides of the stone. And they were placed with an intentional gap between them of 2/100th of an inch. Modern technology cannot place 20 stones with greater accuracy than they did in the Great Pyramid.
Even more amazing is that the 2/100th of an inch gap was designed to allow room for sealant to hold the blocks together.A white cement that connected the casing stones and made them watertight is still intact and is stronger than the blocks it holds together. Whoever built the Great Pyramid seemed to have used a technology to accuralately place and cement stones that we still do not posess today.
Consider also that the Great Pyramid incorporates Mathematical concepts and knowledge of the world that the Egyptians did not have..
1.The height of the Pyramids apex is 5,812.98 inches and each side is 9,131 inches rom corner to corner. If the circumference of the pyramid is divided by twice it's height the result is 3.14159, which just happens to be Pi. Pi is demonstrated many times throughout the Pyramid, and yet we know that it wasn't discovered until later by the Greeks..
2.As stated earlier each the Pyramids four sides are 9,131 inches for a total of 36,524 inches. 365.24 days just happens to be the exact length of the solar year.
3.All four sides of the Pyramid are slightly concave.This effect which cannot be detected by looking at the Pyramid from the ground was discovered around 1940 by a pilot taking aerial measurements. As measured by todays laser instruments, all these perfectly cut and intentionally bowed stone blocks duplicate exactly the curvature of the Earth.
4.The Great Pyramid is located at the exact center of the Earths' land mass. That is, its' East-West axis corresponds to the longest land parralel across the Earth, passing through Africa, Asia, and America. Similarly, the longest land Meridian, Asia, Africa, Europe, and Antarctica, also passes right through the Pyramid. The odds of the Pyramid being built in this exact spot are 1 in 3 billion.
So it seems our Egyptian friends would have to know a mathematical concept they didn't have, the exact length of the year, the exact curvature of an Earth no one had yet mapped out accurately, and the exact center of the Earths' land-mass including continents they didn't know existed. Not only that they had to incorporate all this knowledge into construction of one monument.
I'd also like to point out that the Pyramid would have collapsed under it's own weight if it were'nt for the fact that a small Granite mountan exists right under it. How did they know it was there? They certainly didn't have advanced mining equipment to check.


* I would have liked to attach an image of heiroglyphics for you but I've been unable to make photo attachments work thus far. I feel that using a link during a formal debate is a cop-out so I'll concede that one point in your favor.

This post has been edited by Falco Rex: 02 June 2004 - 12:42 PM

[Byuu94]

Sorry about that, forgot to close the door. (pushed moe and stellar back outside)

One of the points you make is that the egpytians must have had astounding mathematical abilities in order to build the pyramids, or else aid came from another place. We know full well that the Egyptian civilization was possibly the most advanced civilization at its peak. Many of the discoveries by the Greeks (such as Pi) were possibly discovered by the Egyptians, then passed on. As for the sides having the exact same curve as the surface of the earth, I find that claim dubious. the curvature of the earth from the ground is so little as to be barely noticable. So it would be next to impossible for a pilot to see from above, and even more so given it was in 1940. As for the granite mountain being right underneath the pyramid, I have heard of it before, it's called the African Continent. All landmasses are Granite, although they may have other layers on top. The desert of Egypt has fewer layers, because the winds don't give anything time to settle down.All those nifty numbers you said are evidence, to me don't mean much.

[Magikman]

Stellar & Moe,

A debate thread is only to be posted to by the participants in the debate itself, please honor the guidelines that have been predetermined and refrain from adding opinions and or requests to the discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.

MM

[Falco Rex]

It seems we've run out of time here. However I must say it appears you spent your last post arguing FOR me in a roundabout way. Pi accurate to within 6 digits is astounding when you consider they not only had to know it, but also build a structure incoporating it. The curvature of the Earth IS barely noticable from the ground. It makes it stranger that the Great Pyramids curvature is the same. And the fact that Egypt has less layers of Granite makes it much more amazing that the Great Pyramid was built exactly on top of one of the higher protrusions. So I guess I'm now at..

The Conclusion
It's too bad really. This has been fun and there's much more to say on both sides.But when it comes to the Pyramids there's always much more to say. No other structures have captured people's intellects and imaginations the way these monuments have..
And with good reason. Looking at much of the evidence seems to point to the fact that we have giant OOPARTS standing about for all to see. No matter what your views on the subject you have to admit that if Aliens were to contact a culture in that period of time, Egypt would have been ideal. It was the height of civilization at the time and it had a ruler that was considered a living god and could speak for all his people..
While my case may be theory and supposition I feel there's at least enough circumstantial evidence to advance the notion that Aliens had a hand in the Pyramids, whether through actual construction or whether it was the sharing of information and technology that allowed the Egyptians to do it themselves. On that note I will finish up. I'd like to thank you, Byuu94 for a good debate, and more thanks to everyone else who took the time to read this thread. Good fight, and Good Night!
-Falco

[Byuu94]

Conclusion:
It's a hard debate either way, and even if it served no purpose it helped people find out information on the topic they may not have know previously. To all those reading this, you can make your own decision, and if you are really interested in this topic go out and do some research!

Thanks to Falco Rex for an interesting and puzzeling debate, despite the fact I can't spell "puzzeling" right. Sorry for the long delay between posts, and thanks to our random guests moe, stellar, and MM. Good evening

-Byuu94

"Egyptian builders." -Roger Moore

[BurnSide]

Very good debate, both of you! Some great key points have been raised, and i am ahppy to say i enjoyed reading through this one.

Your results!

BYUU94:
Relevancy: 7
Countering: 8
Style: 5
Persuasiveness: 8
TOTAL: 28

FALCO REX:
Relevancy: 7
Countering: 8
Style: 8
Persuasiveness: 9
TOTAL: 32

Congratulations to the both of you, it's a close call.