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Scientist admits to study of Roswell debris!


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#211    Ra_Sun-God

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 01:24 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 09 September 2009 - 10:42 PM, said:

That's right! Naaaah!

After all, Lt. Haut made it clear in his affidavit after he died and you know the old story; " You can't take it with you." In that regard, money was not a factor.
Well put. "You can't take it with you", money was not a factor  :)


#212    Ra_Sun-God

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 01:53 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 09 September 2009 - 06:14 AM, said:

Have you managed to get a copy of that book I referenced? - This One?

Posted Image

Remember? In it, Jesse Marcel Senior says his son is wrong, the beams were not I beams, they were square in shape.
So which Marcel is it you are claiming is telling the truth ;)
I think that book is just another attempt to put the words into both Jesse Marcel Senior's and his son's mouths.

And I noticed that that book made another big mistake too:

That book maded this question "Why did he wait 32 years before coming out with his story?". That book should never had asked that question, because then someone can easily come forward to peale that book apart by saying >>Because he was threatened to silence, and decided to make a deathbed confession (while he was still young) to be open after his DEATH!<<. And I will say that that's a good explanation.  :rofl:

Edited by Ra_Sun-God, 10 September 2009 - 01:59 PM.


#213    Ra_Sun-God

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:27 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 09 September 2009 - 10:40 PM, said:

The skeptics might as well accept the fact the Roswell incident involved extraterrestrial beings and as the years been rolling on,  the more we have learned about the facts surrounding the Roswell incident.
I agree, the skeptics might as well accept the fact the Roswell Incident involved extraterrestrial beings.

And it is expected that many skeptics will become Former Skeptics, and it is already begun:

http://www.rense.com/general45/org.htm

Professional Skeptics Group Proves UFOs Real


#214    Ra_Sun-God

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:39 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 09 September 2009 - 10:48 PM, said:

Are you implying that someone was spreading memory metal on the Foster ranch in July 1947?

After all, the Roswell witnesses were describing a material in 1947 that mimics the properties of today's memory metal.
Spreading human made memory metal on Foster Ranch????? I have a great great laugh (my stomach hurts). I myself very doubt they spread memory metal on Foster Ranch in July 1947, and I'm sure you also very doubt they did that.

Someone did certainly messed up with the original history of the human made memory metal's origin:

MEMORY METAL'S "OFFICIAL HISTORY" IS FALSE

Europeans in the 1930s conducting metal "bendability" and stress tests noted that some alloys (containing Aluminum) could exhibit a type of "pseudo-elasticity." In fact -since man began forging metal by fire- the "state of metal" was known to be "changeable."

But the Battelle studies conducted for Wright Patterson in the late 1940s represent something entirely different. They show that this was the very first time that a metal system that had the potential for genuine "shape recovery" was ever examined by the U.S. military. And these studies began immediately following the Roswell crash where similar material was reported to have been found. Importantly, even after decades, the Nickel-Titanium metal system (Nitinol) remains the material that defines "morphing metal." Any earlier observation of "pseudo-elasticity" was with a metal alloy that did not utilize Nickel and Titanium- and that was not developed for that property. Nitinol, however, has gone on to be used in a variety of things from eyeglass frames to aircraft to medical implants.


And that means that the U.S. Air Force first began scientific work with memory metal after they examined the debris from the crashed ET spacecraft.

Edited by Ra_Sun-God, 10 September 2009 - 02:49 PM.


#215    Ra_Sun-God

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:58 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 10 September 2009 - 04:13 AM, said:

You did not answer my questions at all. You have just dragged some old ones out again. Care to answer as to why Marcel Senior and Marcel Junior disagree on I beams and square beams?

Haut’s story, will be blindly accepted by many UFO researchers simply because it breathes life into the crashed spaceship scenario. Did you know Haut was on Larry King in 2003? The interview went something like this

Frank Warren was present at the Connors and Balthasar interview. His comments

He has a different story for everyone :D What a guy huh! He has the time to give everybody an exciting story. You are just going with the last and most popular version. Marcel still disagrees and says Haut made the press release on own, how is it your 2 star witnesses cannot agree on the allegedly same incident? Haut is also good friends with Glen Dennis........

The Russian space victory is merely proving we have made all this tech ourselves. Not ET help at all. It also proves the Americans are not as efficient as people make out hey. You think they can hide this secret from the Russians? Russians have radars, satellites, spies etc too. They did not beat them into space. Heck, they looked like fools when they could not turn up any WMD's in the desert. They could have just planted a few and justified the war, Nixon? you have to be kidding, the guy that was busted with Watergate is helping to keep this under wraps, after disgracefully being ousted from his position?

You want to meet someone suffering from dementia before deciding deathbed confessions are foolproof solid. My father went like that, as did my wife's uncle, it is not pretty.
That is confusing about the I-beam vs beam. What source is that? I don't know, maybe they put the words into their mouths?

Did Haut say he did not saw the debris on Larry King Live? Please put that on, I want to see it.

The space program was certainly human made  :) No ET were involved there.

I agree, it is not nice to see old people suffering of dementia. But I think the deathbed confessions were already made while they still were young, and then let their children release their deathbed confessions. Just what I think. I doubt they maded the deathbed confessions during their last breath while they rest in peace in bed.

Edited by Ra_Sun-God, 10 September 2009 - 03:05 PM.


#216    badeskov

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 03:03 PM

View Postskyeagle409, on 09 September 2009 - 10:48 PM, said:

Are you implying that someone was spreading memory metal on the Foster ranch in July 1947?

No, I am quite simply implying your witnesses are wrong in their assessment and Mr. Friedman et. al. took some artistic freedom (and that he did - that is a well known fact) when writing his books. Something serious researchers would never do.

Cheers,
Badeskov

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#217    badeskov

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 05:36 PM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 10 September 2009 - 12:40 PM, said:

You have to stop saying "Roswell is dead" when the case still is open. Instead you have to learn to say "In my opinion Roswell is dead". Can you see the difference? When you say "Roswell is dead" then you have to expect someone who come forward to say to you "That claim of yours is wrong when the case still is open".

I certainly hope that if anybody wants to challenge me, then they would do it from a factual point and not the mindless cut-and-paste from already debunked sources that seems to be the modus operandi of believers of the Roswell myth.

Normally you give your opinion when you do not have independently verifiable facts to back you up and that opinion translates into something stronger when facts are used to back it up, just as I and others have done. And exactly what the Roswell ET proponents have utterly failed to do.

But if you really like that, then it is my firm belief that the Roswell tale is dead.

Quote

Roswell is not dead. Roswell still exist. Not only that Roswell still exist on the map of USA, but the case of Roswell Incident is not closed, but still open......

It is closed for all but those who deny factual evidence and relies on misconceptions and misrepresentations to keep a myth alive.

Quote

You have not pealed Bragalia's work apart at all.

But I have and it is abundantly clear that you have not even bothered to do a back ground study of the subject, unfortunately.

Quote

All right, let me take a look at your questions again. Sorry, I should had answered them. These was your questions:

No worries, Ra ;)

My questions to you (and others):

Quote

1) The letter from Batelle to the Air Force states that the Air Force needs to acquire physical evidence for the investigation to yield anything. In other words, they had no debris at all to work with and thus no shape memory alloy analyze.

Question: how does this in any way, shape or form support Bragalia's conclusion?

2) Research in shape memory alloys was started in the early 1930s, and specifically a research effort into the Nitinol alloy was initiated in 1938, some 9 years before Roswell. Thus the sought after properties for such materials were well known. How they should behave and to a large extent even their material composition were also well known. In fact, such materials have a very detailed research history going back some 15 years before Roswell without any significant leaps in progress.

Question: how does this in any way, shape or form support Bragalia's conclusion?

And your answers:

Quote

1) Maybe they got the physical evidence to work with some time after that letter. Can you please show what letter it is, what link?

Now that is just a copout that does not work - at all. But lets get back to that. Mr Bragalia clearly states in his article that the H. C. Cross memo (the Pentacle memo) is the smoking gun. From Bragalia (link and link):

Quote

His story is told more completely in an article archived on UFOIconclasts- "Roswell Metal Scientist: The Curious Dr. Cross." Cross haddirect connections to government-sponsored UFO studies with suchagencies as the USAF, NACA- the predecessor organization to NASA, theCIA and with U.S. Navy Intelligence. He was also the author of thecontroversial letter to Wright-Patterson on UFOs known in researchcircles as the "Pentacle Memo."

This memo is here. And what H. C. Cross actually concludes is that (third paragraph):

Quote

Experience to                       date on our study of unidentified flying objects shows that                       there is a distinct lack of reliable data with which to                       work. Even the best-documented reports are frequently lacking                       in critical information that makes it impossible to arrive                       at a possible identification, i.e. even in a well-documented                       report there is always an element of doubt about the data,                       either because the observer had no means of getting the                       required data, or was not prepared to utilize the means                       at his disposal. Therefore, we recommend that a controlled                       experiment be set up by which reliable physical data can                       be obtained. A tentative preliminary plan by which the experiment                       could be designed and carried out is discussed in the following                       paragraphs.

Bolding mine. Thus, he concludes that they have no data at all to work with. And that means no physical specimen either. Except from this one letter, Mr. Bragalia only refers to one other available document, which is an unclassified document written in 1972 by Wang, one of the inventors of Nitinol. I linked to this report before and in it Dr. Wang describes the history of Nitinol, which of course also includes the earlier research efforts in the late 1940's. This Mr. Bragalia somehow manages to turn into a connection to Roswell, completely out of the blue.

In essence, Mr. Bragalia's work is full of assertions that has no basis in reality and he is utterly unable to document, and the few documents he refers to actually directly contradicts his work.
  

Quote


2) Evidence for the Roswell-Battelle Connection was drawn from:

Footnotes that were located within military studies to a Battelle report on memory metal conducted by the Institute for Wright Patterson in the late 1940s

The fact that - although footnotes citing these reports have been found- the actual reports are "missing" despite repeated efforts

Supporting information provided by two USAF Generals (including one from Wright Patterson) on the composition of the debris and the existence of the analysis reports

A senior-level Battelle scientist's confession that he had analyzed the UFO crash debris when employed at the Institute

A historical "backtracking" of the technical literature on the development of shape-recovery metals- leading back to the doors of Battelle and Wright Patterson, to late 1940s exotic metal reports and to the Roswell Incident

A telling examination of the life of Battelle's Dr. Howard Cross as both metallurgist and UFO researcher- showing his likely involvement in the debris analysis

In this last installment, the memory metal's secret history is further exposed- and the hidden meaning of the metal is finally revealed:

MEMORY METAL'S "OFFICIAL HISTORY" IS FALSE

Europeans in the 1930s conducting metal "bendability" and stress tests noted that some alloys (containing Aluminum) could exhibit a type of "pseudo-elasticity." In fact -since man began forging metal by fire- the "state of metal" was known to be "changeable."

But the Battelle studies conducted for Wright Patterson in the late 1940s represent something entirely different. They show that this was the very first time that a metal system that had the potential for genuine "shape recovery" was ever examined by the U.S. military. And these studies began immediately following the Roswell crash where similar material was reported to have been found. Importantly, even after decades, the Nickel-Titanium metal system (Nitinol) remains the material that defines "morphing metal." Any earlier observation of "pseudo-elasticity" was with a metal alloy that did not utilize Nickel and Titanium- and that was not developed for that property. Nitinol, however, has gone on to be used in a variety of things from eyeglass frames to aircraft to medical implants.


So you see, they had debris to work with.

Gawkd. I can only say see above. What you just did there was to AGAIN blindly cut and past from Mr. Bragalia's work. Which is not helping your cause at all. The same article I have already peeled apart several times. When I ask you how a certain point can support Mr. Bragalia's work, you cannot just use his substantiations. You have to explain to me why his substantiations are correct based on my questions. That you did not do. You used his substantiation, which is being questioned.

In essence, Mr. Bragalia's credibility is zero and his works are, again to paraphrase Evangium, of the same literary value as toilet paper. He is relying on you and others not to actually look at his background material and references and what they actually say. So you can go and buy his books. It is that simple.

However, it tells me that you do not have the means to argue for your case and further discussions are pointless.

Cheers,
Badeskov

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#218    skyeagle409

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 08:50 PM

View Postbadeskov, on 10 September 2009 - 03:03 PM, said:

No, I am quite simply implying your witnesses are wrong in their assessment and Mr. Friedman et. al. took some artistic freedom (and that he did - that is a well known fact) when writing his books. Something serious researchers would never do.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Some of those witnesses were on video tape as they described the properties of that material, so there was no question as to what they were saying. Their descriptions matched the properties of memory metal, buty they were unaware of memery metal at that time.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#219    The One Who Is

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 08:54 PM

View Postbadeskov, on 10 September 2009 - 11:08 AM, said:

Why on Earth would I spend time being a forum infiltrator?
The amusement factor? :w00t:

In various primitive cultures, it was believed that the brain served only to cool the body, being completely unrelated to thought. This is true only in certain people.

#220    skyeagle409

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 04:23 AM

View Postbadeskov, on 10 September 2009 - 05:36 PM, said:

I certainly hope that if anybody wants to challenge me, then they would do it from a factual point and not the mindless cut-and-paste from already debunked sources that seems to be the modus operandi of believers of the Roswell myth.

I have to tell you and the other skeptics, you are not in a position by any means to declare the Roswell incident a myth by any means, and you should have known that! You do not possess the needed security clearance to know for sure, but those who do, were the foks who have declared the Roswell incident the result of extraterrestrials and you should listen to them rather than the skeptics who do not possess such security clearances who don''t even know what they are talking about.

That is why there were still pushing the false weather balloon story of 47 years, and a Project Mogul balloon flight #4 that never was, and test dummies and accident victims of the 1950s to explain an incidnt that took place a decade earlier.

In that regards, it is very clear that their track record isn't  where it should be and why I have warned skeptics to beware of those silly websites.


Quote

Normally you give your opinion when you do not have independently verifiable facts to back you up and that opinion translates into something stronger when facts are used to back it up, just as I and others have done. And exactly what the Roswell ET proponents have utterly failed to do.


I want to add that for years, those involved in the Roswell incident and those stationed at Wright-Patterson AFB, have stated that the Roswell material had undergone anaylysis and now, more on that is coming out into the open. Even the former commanding officer of Wright-Patterson AFB has stated for the record that the Roswell debris was analyzed and that the material came from space, and he said that years ago and now, look what is now being revealed today.

Not long ago, I predicted that there is more to the Roswell story and that more will be revealed as time goes on and look what is being revealed now!

Edited by skyeagle409, 11 September 2009 - 04:32 AM.

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#221    skyeagle409

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 04:34 AM

View Postbadeskov, on 10 September 2009 - 05:36 PM, said:

I certainly hope that if anybody wants to challenge me, then they would do it from a factual point and not the mindless cut-and-paste from already debunked sources that seems to be the modus operandi of believers of the Roswell myth.


I want to further add that the skeptics are the folks who are on the wrong side of the fence in regards to the Roswell incident.

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#222    psyche101

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:34 AM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 10 September 2009 - 02:58 PM, said:

That is confusing about the I-beam vs beam. What source is that? I don't know, maybe they put the words into their mouths?

Direct quote. Cannot be putting words into a mouth if they are already there. The simple fact is Marcel Snr. and Marcel Jnr. disagree  on the wreckage. Seems a big fly in the debris field ointment to me.

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 10 September 2009 - 02:58 PM, said:

Did Haut say he did not saw the debris on Larry King Live? Please put that on, I want to see it.

Yep, and he had several different versions. Click here for them.

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 10 September 2009 - 02:58 PM, said:

The space program was certainly human made  :) No ET were involved there.

:tu: Despite people claiming Roswell is responsible for all out modern gadgets, we can see that is not the case, each and every item in such category has a long paper trail behind it. There was no leg up, no new tech from this advanced craft we supposedly captured.

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 10 September 2009 - 02:58 PM, said:

I agree, it is not nice to see old people suffering of dementia. But I think the deathbed confessions were already made while they still were young, and then let their children release their deathbed confessions. Just what I think. I doubt they maded the deathbed confessions during their last breath while they rest in peace in bed.

Check the above link. Walter had several versions. People are just going with the most spectacular one, which happened to also be his finale.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#223    psyche101

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:43 AM

View PostRa_Sun-God, on 10 September 2009 - 02:27 PM, said:

I agree, the skeptics might as well accept the fact the Roswell Incident involved extraterrestrial beings.

And it is expected that many skeptics will become Former Skeptics, and it is already begun:

http://www.rense.com/general45/org.htm

Professional Skeptics Group Proves UFOs Real


Someone believes Billy Meier. That is proof? That will swing people to believe in Roswell? You are kidding right? Agent Fox Mulder from the X Files would have believed him as well.

This is the guy whoe predicted WWIII in 2006 2008 hang on its now 2010 or 2011!

Ohhh yeah, real credible............ at least I see some similarities with Roswell I guess!! Next year we will have our proof ....... FOR SURE THIS TIME!!!!!!! :lol: Yeah, Roswell is about as credible as Blossom Goodchild.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#224    Ra_Sun-God

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 12:21 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 11 September 2009 - 07:34 AM, said:

Despite people claiming Roswell is responsible for all out modern gadgets, we can see that is not the case, each and every item in such category has a long paper trail behind it. There was no leg up, no new tech from this advanced craft we supposedly captured.
Did NASA and/or the Russian space scientists ever mentioned that they used technology taken from the crashed UFO? The Roswell Incident have nothing to do with the US and/or Russian spaceprogram. I don't know where you have that idea from. Did I ever mentioned that the US and/or Russian spaceprogram used ET technology? NEVER!!

Either you are trying to mislead the debate, or you misunderstood something there Psyche101......

Edited by Ra_Sun-God, 11 September 2009 - 12:32 PM.


#225    Ra_Sun-God

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 01:18 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 11 September 2009 - 07:43 AM, said:

Someone believes Billy Meier. That is proof? That will swing people to believe in Roswell? You are kidding right? Agent Fox Mulder from the X Files would have believed him as well.

This is the guy whoe predicted WWIII in 2006 2008 hang on its now 2010 or 2011!

Ohhh yeah, real credible............ at least I see some similarities with Roswell I guess!! Next year we will have our proof ....... FOR SURE THIS TIME!!!!!!! :lol: Yeah, Roswell is about as credible as Blossom Goodchild.
http://www.dailymoti...es-extraterrest

Will you please read the link again? I think you did not read it properly. That skeptic group tried to debunk Meier's UFO photos, but is finally convinced the photos are real enough.

As you can see, even this video documentary shows that the photographs of the UFO's as Billy Meyer took are real enough. The skeptics had tried to debunk them, but finally found out they are not hoax.
And it is just the matter of time there will be less (there are at least one former skeptic by now regarding Roswell UFO crash) and more less skeptics left regarding the Roswell Incident too......  ;)

Edited by Ra_Sun-God, 11 September 2009 - 01:21 PM.





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