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I found it, now read it please


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#61    Stellar

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 01:31 AM

Saucy, what you use was parts of sceintific evidence found by scientists, and add a creationist twist to it.

Venom: Creationism is NOT a scientific theory. Its a religious theory at most. Do you think Genesis should be taught in science class as a theory = evolution?

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#62    aquatus1

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 03:23 PM

Blue-Scorpion,

Yes, actually, that's exactly it.  Evolution is more scientifically plausible than creationism, which is why it is currently the most highly regarded theory of species variation on the planet within the scientific community.  Whether or not Creationism is a scientific theory at all is currently being debated int the Scientific Methodology thread, although the mainstream community has long ago abandoned it as a plausible theory, due to its inability to explain existing evidence.

As for the young oil argument, I am agreeing that oil, like ice, can be made quickly.  This, however, does not automatically mean that all oil, and similarly, all ice, was made quickly.  In other words, simply because it can be done does not mean that it was done in that manner.  It is a moot argument.

As for creationism being a little coreect, I recommend you read the Scientific Methodology thread.  Venomshocker is putting up a good argument, although I don't think he is referring to the Creationism that is commonly known about.  His explanation might well be that "little bit correct' that you are referring to.

Saucy,
Like I told you, I don't care what you believe.  What I care about is methodology.  I spent many years studying science, and I spent quite a bit of time studying creationists arguments.  I can explain the process by which creationist arguments came to be.  I can also refute them using scientific arguments.  You have not shown that capability.  All you have shown, intentionally or not, is the creationist side, without any indication that you understand either the argument within it or the science behind it.  Wether or not you agree with the science is actually secondary; the problem is that you have not even shown an understanding of it.  I beleive that that, more than anything, is what is frustrating most of the posters here.  Not that you believe in creationism, but that you believe it without understanding it.

That is why I asked you to justify the quote mining.  It is one thing to not try to understand the science behind the geneology, geology, chemical, cosmological, biological due the immensity of the fields involved, but quote mining requires no technical training.  It is a willful use of out of context quotes to make it seem like the person being quoted is against the ideas which he is defending.  This is no longer about knowledge or data.  It is about morality, and libel of character.  I can understand the reluctance to undergo the years of study involved in learning the basics of science, but it takes only minutes to research a quote.  Again, I ask you to justify the use of out of context quotes for creationist arguments.


#63    Venomshocker

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 03:51 PM

QUOTE
Venom: Creationism is NOT a scientific theory. Its a religious theory at most. Do you think Genesis should be taught in science class as a theory = evolution?


Creationism most definately IS a sceintific theory. Go here to see why it is:
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...pic=15429&st=30

I think creationism should be taught along-side evolution in class. Both theories are viable scientifically, and until we find more 'proof' there is a possibility that either theory may be correct, because only one of them can be correct.

However, I do not propose creationism be taught from the genesis account. I propose creation should be taught form the perspective that there was a creator, period.
Its up to the student or researcher to decide, if it was the Judeo-christian God, or the Hindu God, or possibly even aliens, or 'astronauts' from other planets as Sitchin would have it.

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#64    Seraphina

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 04:06 PM

QUOTE
I'm all dried up; washed out. I'm truly glad that everyone here works together to try and flush someone's faith down the toilet. I will now leave with my head bowed in defeat...


Um...correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you trying to flush OUR beliefs down the toilet when you tried to disprove evolution in favour of creationism? tongue.gif

In any event, I trust you're starting to realise that there is not a single peice of so called "evidence" for creationism that is not flawed, debunked, or answerable?  

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Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#65    Chauncy

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 04:39 PM

QUOTE
I think creationism should be taught along-side evolution in class



We cannot do that Venom, as much as you want to believe in a God, we cannot be that corgdial to your aspirations. In fact I feel compelled to protect our society from those aspirations.

In school we teach sciences, factual truths, and we teach people how to use these hardcore undeniable facts to hypothesize on things not yet known. All the sciences are used to uncover the truth.

We cannot tell people to aspire to unlock these mysteries , then in the same breath inform them that there is no mystery, God did it.

If you had it your way all sciences would be invalid because you just made them obsolete with a pre-supposition of God. We would then sit and do nothing as we await a second coming, all answers according to you are supplied in the belief in God......Bollocks!!

It is that mentality I believe has destroied civilizations and is a direct reason why we have so much mystery when it comes to origins.

Our school systems need help not hinderence Venom, and most rational minded people will never let our future be buried by such a pre-supposition.
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#66    saucy

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 05:00 PM

Beliefs?  You called them your beliefs Seraphina?  I thought it was all pure, non-argumentive, 100% scientific fact!  Now they're your beliefs?  Besides, how much would it crush you to find out evolution didn't happen?  Probably not much because many aspects of the evolution theory keeps changing so you're used to it by now.


#67    Fluffybunny

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 05:08 PM

QUOTE (Chauncy @ May 17 2004, 09:39 AM)
It is that mentality I believe has destroied civilizations and is a direct reason why we have so much mystery when it comes to origins.

Good post Chauncy.

religion(christianity specifically) has had such a negative impact on the sciences over the past millennia that I just don't see how the religious community could dare stick their collective pushy noses into the matter.

Religion is wonderful; in a church, to those that wish to partake of it. In my opinion it does not have a place in public education. Private schools can teach whatever they want, public education paid for by the taxpayer and the state is no place for the indoctrination of any religion.

If you want to teach christian creationism, do it in a context that would be more appropriate; in a mythology class describing all of the worlds creation stories and mythologies...creationism is not science, and should not taught as such.  

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#68    Chauncy

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 05:17 PM

Thanks  fluffybunny thumbsup.gif

Oh and saucy just a heads up, but you may want to take that big book from which you discern your truth, and slide it down the back of your trousers because I believe Seraphina is about to give you a spanking.(all due respect extended)
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As long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost and science can never regress.
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#69    saucy

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 05:22 PM

Wouldn't be the first time and definately won't be the last.  I'm actually starting to like it!  grin2.gif  


#70    Venomshocker

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 05:24 PM

QUOTE
In school we teach sciences, factual truths, and we teach people how to use these hardcore undeniable facts to hypothesize on things not yet known. All the sciences are used to uncover the truth.


Hahaha, your pretty funny. You think the theory of evolution is an unquestionable fact?????????? Your dead wrong.
If You think the theory of gravity is an unquestionable fact???Your dead wrong again.

What is taught in school called science, is nothing more than theories. And by ruling out an intelligent designer your rulling out a theory. And then your playing favourtism!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are very few cold hard facts in sceince. Very few. Gravity is a theory, electromagnetism is a theory, evolution is a theory, and also creationism. All possible explanations must be considered before any of them are thrown out. You have no proof creationism is wrong, and therefore it should be taught in schools.



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#71    Fluffybunny

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 05:54 PM

QUOTE (Venomshocker @ May 17 2004, 10:24 AM)
You have no proof creationism is wrong, and therefore it should be taught in schools.

Well then, using that bulletproof logic you have no proof that the Navajo creation story is wrong. BOBOism is as viable as any creation story. The view of reincarnation can't be proved wrong either. Neither can any of the other creation stories that have come and gone over the millennia.

Unfortuantely none of that means anything as all of the creation stories are based in mythology and not science.

In a mythology class you are welcome to teach mythology, but the christian creation story doesn't make the criteria to call itself science. In this country we have a seperation of church and state for a good reason. Christians have a tendancy to try and ride roughshod over education(thinking in general), and therefore policies have been put in place to minimize this.

Your magical story of creation does not belong in a science class. Sorry.

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#72    Chauncy

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 06:08 PM

QUOTE
If You think the theory of gravity is an unquestionable fact???Your dead wrong again


Theory of gravity?

Stand on the side walk, I'll get on the roof and drop a ton of bricks. If you think its just a theory stand there, if you think its is a scientific fact.....move out of the way!
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#73    X~File_Agent

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 06:28 PM

Chauncy, that is probably the best pic I've ever seen to try and prove a point.  If this was a point system, I'd give you a Million points.  clap.gif  

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#74    Fluffybunny

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 07:34 PM

QUOTE (Chauncy @ May 17 2004, 11:08 AM)
Stand on the side walk, I'll get on the roof and drop a ton of bricks. If you think its just a theory stand there, if you think its is a scientific fact.....move out of the way!

Well, the car was only crushed in theory. rolleyes.gif



Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#75    Venomshocker

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 07:39 PM

The effects of Gravity are really well know. As anybody can tesitify to that. But nobody really knows what gravity actually is, as in what its made up of. There are just theories. original.gif

Edited by Venomshocker, 17 May 2004 - 08:57 PM.

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