[Skim Milky]

Man, you gotta love The History Channel. Most people, apparently, myself included, had never even heard of the ruins of Puma Punku in Bolivia. I saw a video on this site and decided to start a discussion on this incredible topic. If you aren't familiar with Puma Punku, go google it. Why isn't this garnering more attention? The ruins really do look as if some great force, (perhaps an earthquake?) literally tore this site apart. The precise cutting and drilling seen all over the site is unreal. I've read that diamond-tipped tools are a neccesity in order to cut this extremely hard rock, (granite and diorite), which reportedly yields only to diamond as some of the hardest substances on Earth. Also, some of these stones weigh over 800 tons. With no trees in the area to build any type of ramps or pulleys, how did they transport these huge blocks with the nearest quary being 10 miles away? The blocks themselves fit together like an elaborate puzzle to form....something. How could individuals plan and execute such an ambitious project without even basic writing? Are the history books in our schools the real science fiction? Thoughts?

[carlinspace]

I havent actually seen that documentary but the whole Tiahuanaco area has fascinated me for years as have the pyramids. Does it say in the documentary how old they believe the site is and what method(s) they used to come to this conclusion? I know they have used carbon dating but cant find any other means of dating used.

[Mattshark]

carlinspace, on Aug 13 2009, 02:41 PM, said:

I havent actually seen that documentary but the whole Tiahuanaco area has fascinated me for years as have the pyramids. Does it say in the documentary how old they believe the site is and what method(s) they used to come to this conclusion? I know they have used carbon dating but cant find any other means of dating used.

The site was settled about 1500BCE but the majority of it is 1700-1500 years old.


Skim, the History (lol) Channel is full of crap mate, you can can drill granite with steel.
The site has had plenty of attention, but the pseudo-History channel isn't interested in telling you that.

[Leonardo]

Hey Skim, haven't seen you on UM for a while. Welcome back!

There seems a bit of renewed interest in Puma Punku, and I was wondering why - I should have realised something on TV was the instigator!

I haven't seen the show myself, but it seems there are a few inaccuracies in it. For a start - which stone blocks weigh in excess of 800 tons?

Here is a site devoted to Puma Punku, and it cites one stone weighing around 440 tons (still impressive), but none of the weight the tv show seemed to indicate? As for the large stone blocks that are there, well Puma Punku was a port and the biggest blocks are where the piers were. Not to difficult to reason they were floated into place then partially sunk.

I've also read online reports of the site being "14,000 years old". That seems to be a little myth grown up around confusing the elevation of the site (it sits around 14,000 feet above sea level - on what was a large lake) with it's age.

Even the site I linked to has some dubious reasoning on it. The diorite could quite easily have been drilled with hard wood or copper drills - provided you have a little quartz dust or similar material to help with the abrasion (use the quartz, Luke, use the quartz!)

I'm trying to find a proper archaeological website with more info, but they seem scarce. Anyway, others might have more info about what is indeed a fascinating ruin.

[Skim Milky]

carlinspace, on Aug 13 2009, 02:41 PM, said:

I havent actually seen that documentary but the whole Tiahuanaco area has fascinated me for years as have the pyramids. Does it say in the documentary how old they believe the site is and what method(s) they used to come to this conclusion? I know they have used carbon dating but cant find any other means of dating used.

I don't think there are any solid conclusions as to the date. Some believe it as little as a thousand years old, some as old as 10,000 years old. Not being in the field, I really can't say either way. But I will say that it's amazing no matter which side of the spectrum you align yourself with.

[Skim Milky]

Leonardo, on Aug 13 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

Hey Skim, haven't seen you on UM for a while. Welcome back!

There seems a bit of renewed interest in Puma Punku, and I was wondering why - I should have realised something on TV was the instigator!

I haven't seen the show myself, but it seems there are a few inaccuracies in it. For a start - which stone blocks weigh in excess of 800 tons?

Here is a site devoted to Puma Punku, and it cites one stone weighing around 440 tons (still impressive), but none of the weight the tv show seemed to indicate? As for the large stone blocks that are there, well Puma Punku was a port and the biggest blocks are where the piers were. Not to difficult to reason they were floated into place then partially sunk.

I've also read online reports of the site being "14,000 years old". That seems to be a little myth grown up around confusing the elevation of the site (it sits around 14,000 feet above sea level - on what was a large lake) with it's age.

Even the site I linked to has some dubious reasoning on it. The diorite could quite easily have been drilled with hard wood or copper drills - provided you have a little quartz dust or similar material to help with the abrasion (use the quartz, Luke, use the quartz!)

I'm trying to find a proper archaeological website with more info, but they seem scarce. Anyway, others might have more info about what is indeed a fascinating ruin.

It's great to be back on here again. Good to chat with you once more.

I think we'll both agree alot of these sites seem somewhat biased.

I havent heard the theory of floating the stones into place. Very interesting. I wonder what type of vessel would be neccesary to float such a massive block.

Curious as to your opinion on this, what do you think about these individuals constructing such an elaborate puzzle without writing to plan and organize such an effort? Couldn't the historians be wrong, with evidence of writing long gone?

Also, I wonder, how long has this lake bed been dried up?

This post has been edited by Skim Milky: 13 August 2009 - 02:19 PM

[Leonardo]

Skim Milky, on Aug 13 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

It's great to be back on here again. Good to chat with you once more.

I think we'll both agree alot of these sites seem somewhat biased.

I havent heard the theory of floating the stones into place. Very interesting. I wonder what type of vessel would be neccesary to float such a massive block.

Curious as to your opinion on this, what do you think about these individuals constructing such an elaborate puzzle without writing to plan and organize such an effort? Couldn't the historians be wrong, with evidence of writing long gone?

Also, I wonder, how long has this lake bed been dried up?

Having no system of writing doesn't mean drawing is impossible, Skim. These people had language, and the ability to draw, what else is needed for a plan? As for the boats, as far as I know, large reed boats (like rafts) are mooted as being the vessels used.

The lake in question (Lake Titicaca) is still there, but I don't believe the site of Puma Punku is on the actual shoreline any longer (?). Sorry, that wasn't clear in my first post and I realise I made it sound as if the lake no longer existed.

[TheSearcher]

Leonardo, on Aug 13 2009, 04:39 PM, said:

Having no system of writing doesn't mean drawing is impossible, Skim. These people had language, and the ability to draw, what else is needed for a plan? As for the boats, as far as I know, large reed boats (like rafts) are mooted as being the vessels used.

The lake in question (Lake Titicaca) is still there, but I don't believe the site of Puma Punku is on the actual shoreline any longer (?). Sorry, that wasn't clear in my first post and I realise I made it sound as if the lake no longer existed.

I think you are correct, I've read somewhere that the level of lake Titicaca actually was a lot higher higher than now and Puma Punku was actually on it's shores at some time in history. The quarry for the blocks used in Puma Punku, was on the western shore of Titicaca, some ten miles away. So it stand to reason that they must have used some floating device / boat for the blocks. It would be the most effective way of easely getting them there and placing them.

I'll try to find the sources for my lake and quarry info again. Been quite a while since I came across it, so please give me some time.

[Abramelin]

Here they are trying to find out how and if the people who created Tiahuanacu/ Puma Punku used boats:

http://www.archaeolo...experiment.html

It's an interesting website:
http://www.archaeolo...pumapunku1.html

[TheSearcher]

Abramelin, on Aug 14 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

Here they are trying to find out how and if the people who created Tiahuanacu/ Puma Punku used boats:

http://www.archaeolo...experiment.html

It's an interesting website:
http://www.archaeolo...pumapunku1.html

Nice sites mate, plenty of good info. The experiment these people did, transporting a 9 ton stone from Copacabana to Tiahuanacu on a reed boat, was a success. Now we can assume, that during the construction phase of Puma Punku they did pretty much the same; the level of the lake being higher or not, makes in this case no difference.

[Dark_Lord]

You may check this older thread I opened on the subject:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=110144

[crystal sage]

Here's some film on it...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M3eQeGLcKsU

then add the Gobekli Tepe digs to it...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TU2qwoMfq-U

Do you think that perhaps there is any connection here?

age wise.. or styles.. craftsmanship.?

[crystal sage]

The expertise involved in the construction of these buildings seem to hint at vast knowledge..years of experience..

Chance? that somehow these ancients.. many thousands of years ago just happened to intuit how to build these vast constructions out of the blue... crafts that require exact measurements..precise placement of up to 40 ton blocks...
I saw one show where they hinted that they had some pulley system where they raised and lowered these massive blocks.. and continued to shave bits of the boulders until they fit cleanly.. so exactly that there wasn't a hair's breadth space between them... No... can you imagine the ropes breaking .. slippage... whilst whittling down the sides.. creating and adjusting the connection points of the perfect grooves to join these blocks...

or even floating them into place...


I wonder can we duplicate this in an underwater scenario.. building high tide underwater constructions... float blocks into place.. chip off pieces till they fit exactly...?

Is there signs of water erosion on them?

[TheSearcher]

crystal sage, on 28 August 2009 - 08:27 AM, said:

Here's some film on it...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=M3eQeGLcKsU

then add the Gobekli Tepe digs to it...

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TU2qwoMfq-U

Do you think that perhaps there is any connection here?

age wise.. or styles.. craftsmanship.?

It's not because Charlton Heston played Moses in the movies, that he knows what he is talking about. Actors have been wrong more often than not. There is no radiocarbon or stratigrafical evidence that Tiahuanaco, nor Puma Punku are 12.000 years old. The oldest city in America is Caral with 5000 years aproximativly, if I'm not mistaken.

Göbekli Tepe is another matter altogether. Funny fact, Göbekli Tepe is Turkish for "Hill with a Navel" ; It is a hilltop sanctuary built on the highest point of a mountain ridge about 15 km northeast of the town of Şanlıurfa (Urfa) in southeastern Turkey. The site was erected by hunter-gatherers in the 10th millennium BC (ca 11,500 years ago). Together with the site of Nevalı Çori, it has revolutionised understanding of the Eurasian Neolithic and is indeed the oldest found temple / settlement in the world.

Are both Göbekli Tepe and Puma Punku connected? I really don't see how, given that they are on different continents and stem from totally different times. Also there are the notable differences in architecture, styles and craftsmanship. These two sites are totally unrelated.

[zoser]

An ancient site next to Tiahuanaco in Bolivia.

A short 7 min video that focusses on the engineering enigmas.

Sensible comments please - no theories about copper hammers, pounding, blocks and tackles, and 2 mile long ramps.


http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

This post has been edited by zoser: 01 September 2009 - 07:46 AM